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Topic: George Michael -- Marxist Libertarian? (Read 4088 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
April 11, 2012, 08:58:29 AM
#33
You can't have private enterprise or a free market without taxation to pay for infrastructure.

How would you say that Bitcoin works, then?  Inflation tax?  Do you think it will fail when the block reward drops?

Bitcoin is is not private enterprise or a free market.  Its a cryptocurrency.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
April 11, 2012, 07:06:27 AM
#32

.
It even has the upside down satanic stars the same as the new GOP logo.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
April 11, 2012, 01:48:22 AM
#31
You can't have private enterprise or a free market without taxation to pay for infrastructure.

How would you say that Bitcoin works, then?  Inflation tax?  Do you think it will fail when the block reward drops?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
April 11, 2012, 01:43:08 AM
#30
...snip...

Britain's social welfare system is based upon taxation, not private enterprise.  So I wouldn't call it that.  I wouldn't call anything capitalism, because the term is as tainted as "communism", and so is the economic systems that people tend to refer to them with that term.  There is no such thing as a free market in this modern world, so it's not accurate in an economic sense to call Britain (or the US) capitalist nations.

You can't have private enterprise or a free market without taxation to pay for infrastructure.  If taxation means the system isn't capitalist in your book, then there will never be a capitalist system for you. For the sake of clear communication, why not use the word with the same meaning as everyone else?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 10, 2012, 05:43:57 PM
#29
Marxism , by it's own definition, seeks to establish a predominately communist society. 

In the broadest sense, Marxism posits that a communist society will emerge regardless.

But perhaps it is true that Marxism is not strictly relevant to the discussion at hand.  I'm not sure what Brits would call their social welfare system.  Technically it might be considered benevolent monarchism.  But that doesn't seem accurate.

Capitalism of course.

Their social welfare system?  Really?

Yes really.  Why - what would you call a system that is based on private enterprise?

Britain's social welfare system is based upon taxation, not private enterprise.  So I wouldn't call it that.  I wouldn't call anything capitalism, because the term is as tainted as "communism", and so is the economic systems that people tend to refer to them with that term.  There is no such thing as a free market in this modern world, so it's not accurate in an economic sense to call Britain (or the US) capitalist nations.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
April 10, 2012, 01:07:08 PM
#28

.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
April 10, 2012, 12:53:36 PM
#27
Quote
but you must admit that it sounds rather inefficient, that we have to fight about every little breadcrumb, right?
Having some central group decide who gets what sounds more inefficient. It is relative.
sure it is, but in some situations it could be useful, in a moment of crisis its way better to have a dictator, then a democracy, but right not im not suggesting that we should centralize control.
im only suggesting that we should share and be nice to each other, that's all.

Don't you know people who are constantly being shared with and never share back? It is not even necessarily that they don't wish to share back, they just never have anything to share back because they repeatedly misuse the resources/opportunities that were shared with them and don't respond to social signals that they should change their ways. They need to "keep it real" or believe it is bad to "let other people change you".
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
April 10, 2012, 12:45:17 PM
#26
Quote
but you must admit that it sounds rather inefficient, that we have to fight about every little breadcrumb, right?
Having some central group decide who gets what sounds more inefficient. It is relative.
sure it is, but in some situations it could be useful, in a moment of crisis its way better to have a dictator, then a democracy, but right not im not suggesting that we should centralize control.
im only suggesting that we should share and be nice to each other, that's all.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
April 10, 2012, 12:21:25 PM
#25
Marxism , by it's own definition, seeks to establish a predominately communist society. 

In the broadest sense, Marxism posits that a communist society will emerge regardless.

But perhaps it is true that Marxism is not strictly relevant to the discussion at hand.  I'm not sure what Brits would call their social welfare system.  Technically it might be considered benevolent monarchism.  But that doesn't seem accurate.

Capitalism of course.

Their social welfare system?  Really?

Yes really.  Why - what would you call a system that is based on private enterprise?
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
April 10, 2012, 10:31:37 AM
#24
The default for private property rights is very similar to what exits, collectivist ideals of property rights require enforcement structures.  Therefore, it's impossible for communism to function in the absence of central control of economic systems.
no, collectivist ideals does not require enforcement structures. Its not impossible for communism to function with out central control, all it requires is that people are not narcissistic assholes, and begins care about other persons well being. There is no need for central control.

For any society larger than Dumbar's Number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number) that is dependent upon members of that society treating each other with the kind of mutual respect that is required for a truly voluntary commune to exist, some form of social hiearchy with the capacity to impose it's will upon individuals is required.  Otherwise it's unstable.  This pretty much describes any group larger than a (relatively small) church business meeting.  No town, city, county, state or nation can function otherwise; regardless of whether or not they are communist, libertarian or other.  Even libertarian ideals require a common social order that can be enforced upon individual members; but ideally that common social order is minimalist in nature.  Communism cannot be minimalist in this fashion.  It's literally impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number:
Quote
Dunbar's number is a suggested cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships.



Yes, because it's an educated guess on the average.  You see, people vary and it's difficult to nail down such a number because we kinda can't do social experiements on human beings in order to refine the guess.
I reject your argument, because its based on a guess.
your worldview says, that people are egoistic assholes. In a world full of egoistic assholes, its true that a free market/liberalism would work best, as everyone would pull equally hard to get their share.
but you must admit that it sounds rather inefficient, that we have to fight about every little breadcrumb, right?

My thoughts are along the same lines as Moonshadow's. Collectivism will only work for groups smaller than some size. Maybe it is around 150, maybe it is higher... but there is some number beyond which the human brain must stereotype. Collectivist groups can function within capitalist frameworks but not vice versa. Voluntary collectivism is unstable at large scales over multiple generations. However, I have my doubts that Lib/ancap societies could out-compete statist neighbors in the short term. It is likely that the ideal society is situation-dependent; the most robust solution is a system that can mutate to meet whatever current challenges it faces.

Quote
but you must admit that it sounds rather inefficient, that we have to fight about every little breadcrumb, right?
Having some central group decide who gets what sounds more inefficient. It is relative.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
April 10, 2012, 10:10:36 AM
#23
The default for private property rights is very similar to what exits, collectivist ideals of property rights require enforcement structures.  Therefore, it's impossible for communism to function in the absence of central control of economic systems. 
no, collectivist ideals does not require enforcement structures. Its not impossible for communism to function with out central control, all it requires is that people are not narcissistic assholes, and begins care about other persons well being. There is no need for central control.

For any society larger than Dumbar's Number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number) that is dependent upon members of that society treating each other with the kind of mutual respect that is required for a truly voluntary commune to exist, some form of social hiearchy with the capacity to impose it's will upon individuals is required.  Otherwise it's unstable.  This pretty much describes any group larger than a (relatively small) church business meeting.  No town, city, county, state or nation can function otherwise; regardless of whether or not they are communist, libertarian or other.  Even libertarian ideals require a common social order that can be enforced upon individual members; but ideally that common social order is minimalist in nature.  Communism cannot be minimalist in this fashion.  It's literally impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number:
Quote
Dunbar's number is a suggested cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships.



Yes, because it's an educated guess on the average.  You see, people vary and it's difficult to nail down such a number because we kinda can't do social experiements on human beings in order to refine the guess.
I reject your argument, because its based on a guess.
your worldview says, that people are egoistic assholes. In a world full of egoistic assholes, its true that a free market/liberalism would work best, as everyone would pull equally hard to get their share.
but you must admit that it sounds rather inefficient, that we have to fight about every little breadcrumb, right?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 10, 2012, 09:45:54 AM
#22
Marxism , by it's own definition, seeks to establish a predominately communist society. 

In the broadest sense, Marxism posits that a communist society will emerge regardless.

But perhaps it is true that Marxism is not strictly relevant to the discussion at hand.  I'm not sure what Brits would call their social welfare system.  Technically it might be considered benevolent monarchism.  But that doesn't seem accurate.

Capitalism of course.

Their social welfare system?  Really?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 10, 2012, 09:45:13 AM
#21
The default for private property rights is very similar to what exits, collectivist ideals of property rights require enforcement structures.  Therefore, it's impossible for communism to function in the absence of central control of economic systems. 
no, collectivist ideals does not require enforcement structures. Its not impossible for communism to function with out central control, all it requires is that people are not narcissistic assholes, and begins care about other persons well being. There is no need for central control.

For any society larger than Dumbar's Number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number) that is dependent upon members of that society treating each other with the kind of mutual respect that is required for a truly voluntary commune to exist, some form of social hiearchy with the capacity to impose it's will upon individuals is required.  Otherwise it's unstable.  This pretty much describes any group larger than a (relatively small) church business meeting.  No town, city, county, state or nation can function otherwise; regardless of whether or not they are communist, libertarian or other.  Even libertarian ideals require a common social order that can be enforced upon individual members; but ideally that common social order is minimalist in nature.  Communism cannot be minimalist in this fashion.  It's literally impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number:
Quote
Dunbar's number is a suggested cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships.



Yes, because it's an educated guess on the average.  You see, people vary and it's difficult to nail down such a number because we kinda can't do social experiements on human beings in order to refine the guess.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
April 10, 2012, 08:03:13 AM
#20
Marxism , by it's own definition, seeks to establish a predominately communist society. 

In the broadest sense, Marxism posits that a communist society will emerge regardless.

But perhaps it is true that Marxism is not strictly relevant to the discussion at hand.  I'm not sure what Brits would call their social welfare system.  Technically it might be considered benevolent monarchism.  But that doesn't seem accurate.

Capitalism of course.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
April 10, 2012, 01:42:01 AM
#19
The default for private property rights is very similar to what exits, collectivist ideals of property rights require enforcement structures.  Therefore, it's impossible for communism to function in the absence of central control of economic systems. 
no, collectivist ideals does not require enforcement structures. Its not impossible for communism to function with out central control, all it requires is that people are not narcissistic assholes, and begins care about other persons well being. There is no need for central control.

For any society larger than Dumbar's Number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number) that is dependent upon members of that society treating each other with the kind of mutual respect that is required for a truly voluntary commune to exist, some form of social hiearchy with the capacity to impose it's will upon individuals is required.  Otherwise it's unstable.  This pretty much describes any group larger than a (relatively small) church business meeting.  No town, city, county, state or nation can function otherwise; regardless of whether or not they are communist, libertarian or other.  Even libertarian ideals require a common social order that can be enforced upon individual members; but ideally that common social order is minimalist in nature.  Communism cannot be minimalist in this fashion.  It's literally impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number:
Quote
Dunbar's number is a suggested cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1007
April 09, 2012, 05:35:50 PM
#18
actually, without formal property rights protected by a central state, the dispute between socialist libertarians (who want equality) and capitalist libertarians (who want individual freedom) dissolves. that's because the more property someone claims, the harder they will find it to protect, especially if they are unpopular. they'll have to hire more mercenaries and guards, or, in a more civilized society, this will be reflected in higher insurance costs.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
April 09, 2012, 05:31:41 PM
#17
Marxism , by it's own definition, seeks to establish a predominately communist society. 

In the broadest sense, Marxism posits that a communist society will emerge regardless.

But perhaps it is true that Marxism is not strictly relevant to the discussion at hand.  I'm not sure what Brits would call their social welfare system.  Technically it might be considered benevolent monarchism.  But that doesn't seem accurate.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 09, 2012, 04:38:57 PM
#16
...snip... 
Even libertarian ideals require a common social order that can be enforced upon individual members; but ideally that common social order is minimalist in nature. 

...snip...

I'm guessing that its things like personal freedom and property rights that get enforced?  So you have police, courts, taxes, etc.

Yes, generally speaking.  Libertarianism does not equal anarchism.  To a lib, there are certain "natural" laws, which can be summed up with Maybury's two laws.

1)  Do all that you have agreed to do and..

2) Do not encroach upon another person or their property.

Property is not defined here, because it's a difficult meme to plainly define.  However, most of the time the simple, 2 year old type of 'possesion equals ownership' is somewhat accurate.  As in the idea, the car in my driveway for which I alone have keys for belongs to me, because I paid for it.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
April 09, 2012, 04:01:50 PM
#15
...snip... 
Even libertarian ideals require a common social order that can be enforced upon individual members; but ideally that common social order is minimalist in nature. 

...snip...

I'm guessing that its things like personal freedom and property rights that get enforced?  So you have police, courts, taxes, etc.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 09, 2012, 02:56:54 PM
#14
I think you're right with Marxism, but I believe OP didn't necessarily mean Marxist-Libertarian, but Social-Libertarian.

Maybe, but then I'd require a definition of "social-libertarian" to know if there were fundamental differences.
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