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Topic: Gigamining / Teramining - page 42. (Read 216456 times)

vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
January 16, 2013, 05:44:13 PM
Hi gigavps
Thank you for the reply. What do you think is there a chance that for you to extend the contract for 12 months? Please understand me well I must pay around 4-5 BTC to get my ~20 gigamining bonds. Tomorrow will ask again for a cheaper service but still it's a bit unfair for non US citizens.

Regards
2GOOD

Hi 2GOOD,

While I definitely understand your concern regarding creating legal documents, there is really no other way around this. I am still considering extending the contract, but have not made a decision.

Best,
James
hero member
Activity: 547
Merit: 531
First bits: 12good
January 16, 2013, 05:37:11 PM
Hi gigavps
Thank you for the reply. What do you think is there a chance that for you to extend the contract for 12 months? Please understand me well I must pay around 4-5 BTC to get my ~20 gigamining bonds. Tomorrow will ask again for a cheaper service but still it's a bit unfair for non US citizens.

Regards
2GOOD
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
January 16, 2013, 04:27:07 PM
That's more or less a good news for the ones with access to their shares. I'm still waiting for the digital signature option.

What about the 6/9/12 month !?

Hi 2GOOD,

I do not recommend that you wait. The claims process will stay open but Gigamining cannot be automatically upgraded to Teramining. So if you are interested in Teramining, I would not wait.

Best,
James
hero member
Activity: 547
Merit: 531
First bits: 12good
January 16, 2013, 04:22:42 PM
To all Gigaminers:

Effective immediately, the price to upgrade to Teramining is being dropped to .25 BTC per Gigamining unit upgraded.

BurtW has also been kind enough to help to test the VPS system with a live upgrade and he was able to successfully complete the process.

Best,
James

That's more or less a good news for the ones with access to their shares. I'm still waiting for the digital signature option.

What about the 6/9/12 month !?
sr. member
Activity: 471
Merit: 252
January 16, 2013, 03:58:12 PM
I sent my info along with 1 question well over a month ago & have forwarded it again a few times but have had no acknowledgement or reply from either Carlos or James. Huh

Yes, I sent an email to the lawyer and gigavps almost two moths ago, no one responded neither.

Otoh's question was promptly answered once I had learned that Quentin had not responded. johnlu, please email me directly and I will reply in the morning.

I will be working all day tomorrow to first, get out payments to those who have sent in their information and have been verified, then to setup the upgrade process to Teramining within the VPS web system.

We are getting very close to the arrival of ASIC. Please, if you have not received a response, email me again straight away.

My plans include ALL gigaminers.

james at gigamining dot com

Best,
James


gigavps, I wrote to you on 27 november, I'm forwarding the same message I sent to you and Quentin. Now I'll PM you with my email address to make you know that this is me.
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
January 16, 2013, 01:34:31 PM
I don't see the option for the upgrade after logging in with my userid.  Is this turned on for everyone now?

Hi BrimStone,

I am still waiting on the TOS for the site from Quentin. As soon as it's ready, the process will go live.

Sorry for the confusion.

Best,
James
member
Activity: 71
Merit: 10
January 16, 2013, 12:51:05 PM
I don't see the option for the upgrade after logging in with my userid.  Is this turned on for everyone now?

vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
January 16, 2013, 11:56:49 AM
To all Gigaminers:

Effective immediately, the price to upgrade to Teramining is being dropped to .25 BTC per Gigamining unit upgraded.

BurtW has also been kind enough to help to test the VPS system with a live upgrade and he was able to successfully complete the process.

Best,
James
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
January 16, 2013, 10:30:02 AM
To all Gigaminers:

The VPS website has been updated to allow for verified claimants to easily upgrade to Teramining. I am waiting on Quentin to provide the terms of service before we can officially begin the upgrade process.

If you have not sent in your claim yet, please do.

Best,
James
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
January 16, 2013, 10:27:54 AM
- Gigamining was fully insured against any equipment defects or other problems, 5Mh no matter what. Terramining doesn't seem to be (maybe I've not read all this carefully enough).

The expected output should still be 100%. VPS has strategies in place to make sure defective equipment does not adversely effect the contract, it is just not explicitly guaranteed.

- Gigamining was (advertised as) perpetual.

The buyback clause was the devil in the details. Nothing is perpetual.

- Gigamining was a BTC deal, not a fiat deal, which is what Terramining is (cleverly disguised as this fact may be).

Teramining will be paid in BTC.

- (most importantly) GLBSE-era nonsense & silliness is over.

Completely agree. Things will never be the way they were and it is probably for the best.

As revised, this is a simple "dedicated server" deal, available from pretty much any datacenter/ISP: you pay us 100% mark-up on equipment for a year, we provide connectivity, power, cooling and floor space.

This is right. Teramining is a contract giving the recipient access to both the Bitcoin network and the specialized data processing equipment. There is of course, more to it than just that, but that is the essence of the contract.

As to the earnings projections offered:

They are exactly that, just projections. This is why I asked for others to make their own assessment of the situation.

In case anyone's wondering, this isn't an impeachment of James Gibson personally. The case is simply that antiquated (that is to say, fiat) arrangements do not work for Bitcoin.

Well, when the real world meets Bitcoin more head on, I believe that having "antiquated" arrangements will be the only thing to save all parties from eventual regulation / laws / etc that will be placed over the payment system.
 
It's great that someone is trying (in the sense it's great someone's trying to prove you can't grow taller by pulling your own ears) but the blindness of frustration mentioned afore also guarantees it's suicide.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
January 16, 2013, 03:33:48 AM
As for the premium, Gigamining sold at a 100% premium to the cost of the equipment so 81% seems a bit low.

OTOH,
- Gigamining was fully insured against any equipment defects or other problems, 5Mh no matter what. Terramining doesn't seem to be (maybe I've not read all this carefully enough).
- Gigamining was (advertised as) perpetual.
- Gigamining was a BTC deal, not a fiat deal, which is what Terramining is (cleverly disguised as this fact may be).
- (most importantly) GLBSE-era nonsense & silliness is over.

As revised, this is a simple "dedicated server" deal, available from pretty much any datacenter/ISP: you pay us 100% mark-up on equipment for a year, we provide connectivity, power, cooling and floor space. The principal difference is that the end product of servers (mostly web presence) is not really commodified, whereas the end product of mining rigs (hashes, obviously) is. (And unabashedly so. In fact hashes are the very definition of a commodity, or at any rate the one thing so far created in this world that comes closest to that theoretical notion.)

As far as hosting goes there's some incentive for a thin midmarket sliver to pay for this type of deal, but the bulk of that market is either buying shared servers (which is what "cloud" is, ftr) or colocating their own equipment. The economic rationale for someone buying into something like this eludes me: if they just want a few hashes they can buy a few hashes on gpumax' successors, if they actually want to mine competitively they can buy the gear themselves. Unlike the use of a car, a vacation cottage or an airplane, which are things people may want for themselves, a lot of hashes are intrinsically about as appealing as a large pile of potatoes or bearing balls.

Obviously the absence of a credit card payment method is easily explained by the operator's desire for discreetly outsourcing all the BTC exchange risk upon "investors", but with all the talk of NDAs and whatnot I fail to see why anyone on the buying side would forego the use of a payment method which'd allow the safety of easy chargeback three months down the road if (when?) the deal doesn't play out as projected. This combination of fiat contracts and BTC payments piles things a little too much on one side.

As to the earnings projections offered: I don't think those presented - or any other such copy for that matter - hold any water whatever. In the words of Buffett (a noted manager of commodified businesses),

So, for example, if you have 1000 Gigamining contracts the paid upgrade path would cost 1000 x 0.29 = 290 BTC or about $3,900

Personally, I plan to spring for the paid upgrade path as I believe it will most likely be very profitable.

I'll bet you 100 BTC that by the end of this year you will not have received 290 BTC from this investment through the ordinary distributions.

In case anyone's wondering, this isn't an impeachment of James Gibson personally. The case is simply that antiquated (that is to say, fiat) arrangements do not work for Bitcoin.

This isn't through some fault of whoever is trying to implement them, although frustration has occasionally led people on this forum and off to call him a scammer and so forth.

This is simply because fiat is too shitty to work. Giga finds himself in the unenviable position of trying to deliver pizza in present day New York through the services of an old, horse drawn buggy.

It's great that someone is trying (in the sense it's great someone's trying to prove you can't grow taller by pulling your own ears) but the blindness of frustration mentioned afore also guarantees it's suicide.

vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
January 15, 2013, 08:52:18 PM
Just to throw more gas on the fire, how about an option to buy MORE shares at that .29 price if you are already a bondholder?  I would be willing to double up at that price.

(I run a farm of my own and know what the TRUE costs are)

-BrimStone

Hi BrimStone,

First, thanks for pointing out that there are definitely more intangible costs to running a mining farm. My wife can certainly attest to all of the time I spend looking at my phone to make sure things are up while she has something important to say to me.

I do appreciate your offer, but no. The offer will stay as-is.

Best,
James
member
Activity: 71
Merit: 10
January 15, 2013, 07:57:59 PM
Just to throw more gas on the fire, how about an option to buy MORE shares at that .29 price if you are already a bondholder?  I would be willing to double up at that price.

(I run a farm of my own and know what the TRUE costs are)

-BrimStone
hero member
Activity: 1596
Merit: 502
January 15, 2013, 03:34:33 PM
Another way to look at it is,

The free path
1 old contract = 4 new contracts
1 old contract + 0.29 BTC = 15 new contracts
so
0.29 BTC = 11 new contracts
1 new contract = 0.29 BTC / 11 = 0.02636364 BTC
so
1 old contract = 4 new contracts = 0.10545456 BTC

My conclusion,
If you think an old contract is worth more than 0.10545456 BTC you're better off paying for the upgrade.
If you think an old contract is worth less than 0.10545456 BTC you're better off with the free upgrade.
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
January 15, 2013, 03:31:03 PM
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
January 15, 2013, 03:22:14 PM
Here is my understanding of how the upgrade works:

Each of your current Gigamining contracts is for the theoretical (calculated) Bitcoin output of five million hashes/second of mining power (5 MH/s)

Each of the new Teramining contracts will be for the actual Bitcoin output of nine million hashes/second of mining power (9 MH/s)

On the free upgrade path (no additional cost to you) you get four Teramining contracts for each Gigamining contract you turn in, so in terms of hashes you will get

4 x 9 = 36 MH/s for each 5 MH/s turned in for an overall upgrade ratio of 7.2 times the hashing power per contract

On the paid upgrade path (0.29 BTC per contract turned in) you get 15 Teramining contracts for each Gigamining contract you turn in, so in terms of hashes you will get

15 x 9 =  135 MH/s for each 5 MH/s turned in for an overall upgrade ratio of 27  times the hashing power per contract

The paid upgrade path will cost 0.29 BTC per contract or the equivalent in USD (about $3.90 per contract).

So, for example, if you have 1000 Gigamining contracts the paid upgrade path would cost 1000 x 0.29 = 290 BTC or about $3,900

Personally, I plan to spring for the paid upgrade path as I believe it will most likely be very profitable.

EDIT:  I copy pasted this from a time when BTC were at a lower price...
legendary
Activity: 922
Merit: 1003
January 15, 2013, 02:52:50 PM
Code:
                GIGAMINING   TERAMINING
Total Gh/s      200Gh        5,400Gh
Mh/s per bond   5Mh/s        9Mh/s
Total bonds     40,000       600,000

Free Upgrade Path
I will offer a 1:4 exchange of Gigamining for Teramining that costs nothing to upgrade. An example would be if you have 400 Gigamining and don’t want to pay to upgrade, you can swap them 1:4 for Teramining. This would represent a 7.2x increase in the bonds hashing power at no additional cost. So in this case, the 400 Gigamining bonds (2Gh) would be upgraded to 1,600 Teramining bonds (14.4Gh).

Paid Upgrade Path
I will also offer a 1:15 exchange of Gigamining bonds for Teramining bonds. So, if you have 400 Gigamining bonds (2Gh) and pay the upgrade fee, you will receive 6,000 Teramining bonds (54Gh) in return. The fee to upgrade will be .29 BTC per Gigamining bond. So, the upgrade fee on 400 Gigamining bonds would be 116 BTC.

Contract Outline

  • New contract is 9Mh/s.
  • There is no representation made for the expected output of the contract. So if the hashing power makes more than 100%, you get more than 100%. That said, VPS has systems in place to make sure of 99% up-time including our own, fully redundant pool infrastructure.
  • Contract lasts for 6 moths from the start date for each individual.
  • Contract will start within one week of the equipment arriving and being setup.
  • Any upgrade returns all rights of current Gigamining contract including payments
  • Paid upgrades must be paid in full before the contract can begin.
  • Purchase is non-refundable.
  • Contract also includes an NDA so Teraminers can be free to ask questions and get answers.

You can view the entire contract here -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15g0mjR1VQMr2866CDYI97nyyWA_UJZpX0uP8vrsDBzI/edit

Best,
James

Regarding the paid upgrade option, my interpretation of the above is that 0.29 BTC ($4.13 at today's exchange of $14.25/BTC) gets a Gigamining holder an additional 11 Teramining contracts over the 4 offered by the free path. 11 contracts at 9Mhps apiece is 99Mhps.

Consider a BFL Little Single SC. It hashes at 30,000Mhps and sells for $650. 99Mhps is 0.0033 the hashrate of the SC. 0.0033 of $650 is $2.15. But the paid Teramining upgrade is $4.13... a premium of 92% over the actual hardware cost (essentially double). And the contract ends after just 6 months. Of course some premium is to be expected (hosting facility, utilities, insurance, time, risk) but I find it difficult to justify a 92% markup... even more difficult knowing my purchased hashrate expires after 6 months.

So 3 options for Gigaminers to consider are (a) do nothing and accept the 1:4 free upgrade; (b) pay 0.29 BTC/share for the 1:15 upgrade; or (c) put their 0.29 BTC/share towards the purchase of an actual Single (which can likely be re-sold for its full purchase price after 6 months, given BFL's track record of a full-value trade-in program).

I do understand that some people are willing to pay a high premium for not having to worry about the effort of maintaining a physical miner, but I think it is worthwhile to go through the exercise.

Giga, for transparency, would you be willing to provide an itemized list of your (anticipated and/or estimated) operating costs, non-recurring costs, and operating income during the 6-month Teramining period? It would help Gigaminers better judge the value of both the free and paid upgrade paths on offer and help with their decision. My feeling is that a 0.20 BTC/share upgrade (33% markup) may be more reasonable than the 0.29 BTC (92% markup) proposed ... but without actual numbers to back either one of these, there is nothing to say that one is more reasonable than the other.

Also, for those who no longer wish to continue with Gigamining or Teramining, what options are available to sell their shares? Would you consider a buy-back of some of these yourself and, if so, for what price?
sr. member
Activity: 284
Merit: 251
January 15, 2013, 02:20:32 PM
Fine. Let's do some maffs.

Code:
              Gigamining Contract Teramining Contract Expected 6mo Output Payment to Upgrade Profit in 6mo
Free Upgrade                  504                2016             65.1168             0.0000       65.1168
Paid Upgrade                  504                7560            244.1880           146.1600       98.0280

Using your "maffs" and doing some research of my other (more well managed and actively trading) holdings for comparison. I arrived at a valuation of BTC0.11 per bond for a 6 month contract, just in case anyone is wondering what this offering would be trading at in today's market.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
January 15, 2013, 02:19:30 PM
Can you gives us a definition of a "Gigaminer"? From your posts, it seems like you are not sure what to do with those who have not submitted their info. Maybe, you have not really thought about it yet but for heaven's sake just say so.

Going forward, I do not plan to submit any documents to claim what I had invested.
However, I am interested to know what is going to become of my shares.

Thanks!

Hi nebulus,

At this time, there is no cut off date for claims. All accumulated BTC will be held in cold storage. Since the Gigamining contract is perpetual, coins will keep accumulating in the cold storage wallets until they are claimed.

This is the only way to insure that I will be able to cover the liability at any point in the future.

Best,
James

Just a clarification, how do you now plan to handle the perpetuity of Gigamining without the buyback feature? Should a Gigamining bondholder choose to continue their 5MH/s bond in perpetuity rather than upgrading to Teramining, how will you handle the closure of the company should you want to fold VPS in 20 years?

It's not actually a theoretical question.

Anyone who doesn't claim their shares yet would still be accruing dividends under the old policy.  Whilst, at present, there's no economically viable option for someone with only a few old shares that COULD change in the future.  e.g. in a few years time if BTC are worth $100 each then suddenly it could be worth paying the apostille cost to claim your few bonds.

I'd assume they'd just be getting their promised MH/s PPS output added to their accumulated value forever (with GIga keeping them in BTC so he doesn't face exposure to currency risk if they're claimed at a later date).
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
January 15, 2013, 02:15:27 PM
My plans include all Gigaminers and I am offering a free upgrade for those who don't want to pay.

I don't think free is the right word. I think at-no-charge is what you're looking for. There's only 3 options for Gigaminers... Don't claim shares through Quentin, claim shares and don't take paid option, or claim shares and take paid option. The Gigaminers who claim will become Teraminers no matter what.

I just don't like the wording, is all...
_

"Hey guys, Teramining is coming out! You can pay me money for more shares or pay nothing for a 1:1 trade! If you don't like it you can always not claim your Gigamining shares. It's not like i'm MAKING you pay me."
_

Teramining is certainly BETTER than nothing.  But that doesn't mean you won't get flak for what it IS.

Like Deprived said, you'll be acting...

a) To guarantee significant profit for yourself,
b) To try to ensure minimal chance of loss (or maximum chance of bonds being paid for in dividends) for investors and no loss for yourself.

What Teramining becomes and how you operate it will determine how the community and Gigaminers see you regarding the transition into and eventual ending of Teramining.

You already know all this though, I just felt like saying it outloud.

*
Just a clarification, how do you now plan to handle the perpetuity of Gigamining without the buyback feature? Should a Gigamining bondholder choose to continue their 5MH/s bond in perpetuity rather than upgrading to Teramining, how will you handle the closure of the company should you want to fold VPS in 20 years?
*

Given what I typed above, I would also like a clarification.
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