You would be better off forming an investment group with under 100 shareholders to make it easier to manage. This group might then investigate other opportunities to tie real estate investment to bitcoin and appoint a treasurer,accountant and secretary etc.
This group could be managed over gpg email.
Topic: [GLBSE] House for sale: RFC (Read 4893 times)
brendio is the first one to propose realistic terms. That would be a really interesting first for bitcoin. I don't agree with the "a trusted forum member's word would prevent needing to reveal the address". Holding as illiquid an asset as a house requires extra burden in terms of proof. I would require an appraiser and a fully notarized transferal of title.
I also think you'd need to be pretty bearish on bitcoins to think that a house would outpace them at the moment. A house is certainly at less risk for total loss however, so if the right boxes are checked you could possibly find some investors. Not me, but it's not a totally unviable idea.
-bgc
I have to admit to being somewhat puzzled at the sentiment that rejects collateral. Many of the stock on GLBSE don't even come with an email, a web site or anything and they have thousands of Bitcoins in investment essentially into thin air. I'm backing this idea with a solid investment, one the bank was willing to uphold through all the years of mortgage. Personally I think Bitcoin is going to increase in value, but the shares need to be pinned to the market value of the house and that's why dividends are important here. Another poster mentioned it may be better to take initial payments in Fiat to avoid the issue with increasing BTC value, but to my mind any stock that's valued against Bitcoin has this so called problem. The stock gets more expensive as Bitcoin increases in value, won't that happen to Gigamining or any of them?I also think you'd need to be pretty bearish on bitcoins to think that a house would outpace them at the moment. A house is certainly at less risk for total loss however, so if the right boxes are checked you could possibly find some investors. Not me, but it's not a totally unviable idea.
-bgc
What's missing here is accountability. If there is no accountability for you to actually hand over your house or other assets, if there is no actual enforcement of your collateral, then there really isn't any collateral at all. Brendio said "I would require an appraiser and a fully notarized transferal of title." Others have hinted in that direction in broader terms as well. I did make an offer to you which you rejected.
You said you would have a representative happily visit you and you have said (to me) "any such help would be appreciated". You have also asked me what my qualifications were, why I thought I could do this. Essentially CPA is an insurance company which also acts as a PR firm and legal company in that we can lend credibility through insurance and we can go after people who break their contracts. But, so far you have spurned direct offers to help you along this path. I think the way forward on this should be pretty clear now. So it's really your call. You need to hire a lawyer or a PR firm. If not me, then someone else
If you disagree, then go ahead and list already. Cut this discussion short because it's clear you're not listening to the comments you are receiving. Hey, I will even buy a few shares. Why not? Sounds like a good plan, investing in real estate
With that said what I could do is have a notorized document proving the property is mine and a contract written up for the shareholders that makes it legally binding that I must pay the holders in the event of some default? I guess something like that would be a minimal requirement.
So the questions are:
1) How do banks manage home equity loans? They are unlikely to repossess for say a 20k loan on a 300k house right?
2) If in Bitcoin each user is a tiny bank, as many have realized, why can't those tiny banks do what they want?
Have you ever actually read a mortgage contract (rather than just blindly sign one)? 1) How do banks manage home equity loans? They are unlikely to repossess for say a 20k loan on a 300k house right?
2) If in Bitcoin each user is a tiny bank, as many have realized, why can't those tiny banks do what they want?
1) A bank is well within its rights to repossess for 20 k on a 300 k house. If they then sell for 200 k, they will take their 20 k from that plus costs and give you whatever is left over.
2) Yes, tiny banks can operate according to their own terms and I have already stated my requirements. You appear to be unwilling to actually offer you house as security as stated.
I understand, I am very appreciative of this conversation and admit to blindly signing giant piles of paper. What I'm trying to do here is to help discover a new way of managing this and other similar loan types essentially following suit with Bitcoin's idea of simply ignoring the current standards and replacing them with my own/the forums. Why is interest so expensive and how can Bitcoin be used to minimize the expense? It seems like it really should be an option given that the banks and insanely expensive agents process can be side stepped to some degree making for easier entry in to a currently monopolized industry.
What I've realized is I could take the house out of the equation completely and simply start a mining fund to buy ASICs it seems to me though that I should put up some sort of collateral to do this although maybe I'm wrong? I mean with collateral I should be able to do it sooner as opposed to without?
brendio is the first one to propose realistic terms. That would be a really interesting first for bitcoin. I don't agree with the "a trusted forum member's word would prevent needing to reveal the address". Holding as illiquid an asset as a house requires extra burden in terms of proof. I would require an appraiser and a fully notarized transferal of title.
I also think you'd need to be pretty bearish on bitcoins to think that a house would outpace them at the moment. A house is certainly at less risk for total loss however, so if the right boxes are checked you could possibly find some investors. Not me, but it's not a totally unviable idea.
-bgc
I have to admit to being somewhat puzzled at the sentiment that rejects collateral. Many of the stock on GLBSE don't even come with an email, a web site or anything and they have thousands of Bitcoins in investment essentially into thin air. I'm backing this idea with a solid investment, one the bank was willing to uphold through all the years of mortgage. Personally I think Bitcoin is going to increase in value, but the shares need to be pinned to the market value of the house and that's why dividends are important here. Another poster mentioned it may be better to take initial payments in Fiat to avoid the issue with increasing BTC value, but to my mind any stock that's valued against Bitcoin has this so called problem. The stock gets more expensive as Bitcoin increases in value, won't that happen to Gigamining or any of them? I also think you'd need to be pretty bearish on bitcoins to think that a house would outpace them at the moment. A house is certainly at less risk for total loss however, so if the right boxes are checked you could possibly find some investors. Not me, but it's not a totally unviable idea.
-bgc
It needs to be legally binding contract otherwise its not really collateral
So the questions are:
1) How do banks manage home equity loans? They are unlikely to repossess for say a 20k loan on a 300k house right?
2) If in Bitcoin each user is a tiny bank, as many have realized, why can't those tiny banks do what they want?
Have you ever actually read a mortgage contract (rather than just blindly sign one)? 1) How do banks manage home equity loans? They are unlikely to repossess for say a 20k loan on a 300k house right?
2) If in Bitcoin each user is a tiny bank, as many have realized, why can't those tiny banks do what they want?
1) A bank is well within its rights to repossess for 20 k on a 300 k house. If they then sell for 200 k, they will take their 20 k from that plus costs and give you whatever is left over.
2) Yes, tiny banks can operate according to their own terms and I have already stated my requirements. You appear to be unwilling to actually offer you house as security as stated.
1) How do banks manage home equity loans? They are unlikely to repossess for say a 20k loan on a 300k house right?
It's true that banks are normally not going to repossess a $20k loan on a $300k house. Often with home equity credit, they just roll unpaid interest into the principal on the loan. Typically the credit line has a limit, in your case probably ~$100k, after which they would possibly require you to pay up or repossess.
2) If in Bitcoin each user is a tiny bank, as many have realized, why can't those tiny banks do what they want?
They obviously can. I'm just trying to scope out what protections any potential investor should require.
Perhaps unfortunately no "real" bank is going to loan based on a Bitcoin income, additionally as you might understand I really don't want too declare that as I imagine many of the funds on GLBSE don't for the same reason quite apart from the extreme compounding interest they charge.
Have you talked to the banks? You can probably get a loan based just on the asset value of your house. It probably won't be on as good terms as it would be if you had income to declare though.
Also, from a strict tax-understanding perspective, to comply with US law you need to report capital gains income realized when you sell your BTC for $ or real-world goods. Until that point, you can accrue without tax liability (at least this is my current understanding).
-bgc
How about simply starting a mining operation, or issuing shares for what you have on GLBSE? That way the BTC price will never get out of control and you can "cash out" whatever you need... 15-20k usd and pay it back with dividends. That 300k amount bothers me.
You could be right and it might be better to start smaller. I actually have some mining rigs but would certainly entertain the idea of taking a collateral based loan to purchase some of the new ASIC miners slated to be released in October. I do like the idea of spreading the risk across multiple funds and my own mining also.
Although another poster suggests an even larger scale plan that would essentially see the creation of Bitcoin Housing and Loan that I certainly see as being part of a healthy Bitcoin future.
You did not post asking for a GLBSE home equity loan. You posted your house for sale. There is a difference that you seem to be confusing.
++
punningclan: If you're doing a home equity loan you would be asking for something similar to your liabilities, e.g. around $15000 or your current tax liability. Optionally, you could ask for more and intend to invest it in GLBSE. However, if you're asking for a home equity loan, it's still necessary for the holder of the loan to have title on your house. Without it, there's really no collateral you're offering. In a normal/fiat home equity loan, you already have a primary mortgage on the home and the home equity lender places an additional lien on the title, preventing sale without them being paid off.
If instead of a home equity loan you are essentially selling it, then that justifies something more like the $300,000 of market value. Either way, you need to lose title to whatever entity holds your loan/title.
I really recommend using a traditional home equity line, and if you're very convinced in the viability of GLBSE assets, take out twice what you need to pay your taxes and invest in GLBSE equities yourself. There is no reason to issue a security for this: my analysis is that neither you nor your shareholders would benefit in the optimal arrangement, and in many suboptimal arrangements one or both of you would end up royally screwed.
-bgc
1) How do banks manage home equity loans? They are unlikely to repossess for say a 20k loan on a 300k house right?
2) If in Bitcoin each user is a tiny bank, as many have realized, why can't those tiny banks do what they want?
Not only do banks reinvest their customers interest payments they tried to do the same with the debt also? I'm not asking for that, I'm asking you to be the bank. The bank doesn't take the title on a small loan they expect payment based on an income report you have to supply. I have a Bitcoin income and without much ado can build a huge fund with unending dividends certainly within the terms of this loan. If you default on such a loan then usually the bank will put a lien against your title but they don't abscond with it, which means I'd have to find a way to do something like that in this case.
Perhaps unfortunately no "real" bank is going to loan based on a Bitcoin income, additionally as you might understand I really don't want too declare that as I imagine many of the funds on GLBSE don't for the same reason quite apart from the extreme compounding interest they charge.
I'm not sure how usagi has taken it upon himself to say that I have "spurned his every advance" since I only see one advance telling me how unlikely I'll succeed without his help. I'm sure his help would be appreciated, but I can't help thinking this sentence "I can pretty much guarantee you that if you don't hire me or someone else, you will simply not be able to list. " looks like some sort of threat?
Are you really saying that all the Bitcoineers you profess to stand for have completely decried collateral based loans even given they are the foremost loan instrument in the world?
The poster also needs to keep abreast of the current facts in this proposal.
Thank you again, but please resist the urge to talk for me.
Are you really saying that all the Bitcoineers you profess to stand for have completely decried collateral based loans even given they are the foremost loan instrument in the world?
The poster also needs to keep abreast of the current facts in this proposal.
Thank you again, but please resist the urge to talk for me.
Not a threat at all, and I am suprised you would say that; note the part where I said "or someone else". I was giving you advice.
Anyway, I did send you more than one message; feel free to publish all of the private messages I've sent you; consider them open letters. Be sure to also post your responses. I won't do it though (out of principle).
And no, I really don't think you will even be allowed to list this. I have not said anything to anyone about it except you, and have no plans to do so. If you make my concerns public you do so of your own accord
If instead of a home equity loan you are essentially selling it, then that justifies something more like the $300,000 of market value. Either way, you need to lose title to whatever entity holds your loan/title.
This is definately the primary consideration for his issue in my opinion. I've offered CPA's services to him, but he does not want them. We'll see where this goes, for now I will decline and remain only an "interested observer".
Good luck with this...
Apart from declaring whatever to the whole forum.
In a way you reminded me of the way real estate brokers treat their customers.
I apologize but your private message should have remained private, it's just so easy to copy and paste, however given your stance in the follow up it became evident what was happening. I actually went back and edited the comment realizing it was a little harsh.
Thanks again anyhow and I hope I am able to put together something that works and that you can invest in in the future.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a home equity loan that requires the home owners to move out and pay rent?
You did not post asking for a GLBSE home equity loan. You posted your house for sale. There is a difference that you seem to be confusing.The title has been some what misleading and I probably should change that though looking at the content of the proposal it becomes evident. Thanks for that.
You did not post asking for a GLBSE home equity loan. You posted your house for sale. There is a difference that you seem to be confusing.
++
punningclan: If you're doing a home equity loan you would be asking for something similar to your liabilities, e.g. around $15000 or your current tax liability. Optionally, you could ask for more and intend to invest it in GLBSE. However, if you're asking for a home equity loan, it's still necessary for the holder of the loan to have title on your house. Without it, there's really no collateral you're offering. In a normal/fiat home equity loan, you already have a primary mortgage on the home and the home equity lender places an additional lien on the title, preventing sale without them being paid off.
If instead of a home equity loan you are essentially selling it, then that justifies something more like the $300,000 of market value. Either way, you need to lose title to whatever entity holds your loan/title.
I really recommend using a traditional home equity line, and if you're very convinced in the viability of GLBSE assets, take out twice what you need to pay your taxes and invest in GLBSE equities yourself. There is no reason to issue a security for this: my analysis is that neither you nor your shareholders would benefit in the optimal arrangement, and in many suboptimal arrangements one or both of you would end up royally screwed.
-bgc
How about simply starting a mining operation, or issuing shares for what you have on GLBSE? That way the BTC price will never get out of control and you can "cash out" whatever you need... 15-20k usd and pay it back with dividends. That 300k amount bothers me.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a home equity loan that requires the home owners to move out and pay rent?
You did not post asking for a GLBSE home equity loan. You posted your house for sale. There is a difference that you seem to be confusing. As already pointed out, you are confusing things by mixing investment types. Forget the GLBSE dividend paying investments for a moment. For me to invest I would need to see the following occur.
Get an independent market valuation from a licensed valuer. Provide statements of exact amounts of tax owing. Work out your equity by subtracting tax owing from valuation. Sign a legally binding mortgage to a trusted third party escrow. (If the third party escrow has sufficient reputation in the bitcoin securities world, you would not need to publicly reveal your address. A statement from the escrow that they hold a mortgage would be enough.) Get an independent valuation of the rent that would be payable on an arm's length basis. Either you, or preferably the third party, issues GLBSE assets for no more than 80 % of the equity. You sell at least enough to cover the tax, but more if you like. Proceeds are used first pay off your tax. Each month, you pay to the third party escrow 80 % (or whatever percentage of assets issued) of the market rent for the house, and this rent is distributed as dividends. You may deduct any genuine expenses for the house from the rental income by providing the thrid party escrow with receipts. If you own some of the GLBSE assets yourself, you get some of the rent back. If you issue more assets than is needed to pay the tax, you can invest some of this in dividend paying GLBSE investments. If these go well, you keep all the income yourself and use it to help pay your rent. If your investments bomb, you are still up for rental payments, and if you stop paying rent, the investors can choose to evict you and put someone else in or foreclose on the house.
I would be interested in seeing something like this happen. It would be a novel concept to the bitcoin world (although not the first mortgage). I would need to see the valuations and rent appraisal before deciding whether I would invest in such a venture.
Get an independent market valuation from a licensed valuer. Provide statements of exact amounts of tax owing. Work out your equity by subtracting tax owing from valuation. Sign a legally binding mortgage to a trusted third party escrow. (If the third party escrow has sufficient reputation in the bitcoin securities world, you would not need to publicly reveal your address. A statement from the escrow that they hold a mortgage would be enough.) Get an independent valuation of the rent that would be payable on an arm's length basis. Either you, or preferably the third party, issues GLBSE assets for no more than 80 % of the equity. You sell at least enough to cover the tax, but more if you like. Proceeds are used first pay off your tax. Each month, you pay to the third party escrow 80 % (or whatever percentage of assets issued) of the market rent for the house, and this rent is distributed as dividends. You may deduct any genuine expenses for the house from the rental income by providing the thrid party escrow with receipts. If you own some of the GLBSE assets yourself, you get some of the rent back. If you issue more assets than is needed to pay the tax, you can invest some of this in dividend paying GLBSE investments. If these go well, you keep all the income yourself and use it to help pay your rent. If your investments bomb, you are still up for rental payments, and if you stop paying rent, the investors can choose to evict you and put someone else in or foreclose on the house.
I would be interested in seeing something like this happen. It would be a novel concept to the bitcoin world (although not the first mortgage). I would need to see the valuations and rent appraisal before deciding whether I would invest in such a venture.
Thank you for your excellent suggestions.
I would also happily have a representative vist me here.
Who is paying rent to whom? I currently pay no rent and wish to continue doing so. Reinvesting the value of the shares in funds that pay dividends is simply adding more functionality to a simple investment instrument, it is not illegal, it promises guaranteed regular payments and anyone suggesting that investing on GLBSE is excessively risky shouldn't be investing in the first place? (To answer a poster elsewhere.)
There are ETFs on GLBSE that have no such stringent requirements and they are only backed by the funds themselves, you want me to put the collateral up and pay rent?
A home equity loan requires no rental, why should one based on Bitcoin? Banks use collateral to make money all the time?
You don't currently pay rent because you currently own the house. If you sell the house, as your title suggests, either you need to move out, or else pay rent to the new owners of the house, which in this case would be the GLBSE investors.
A home equity loan requires no rental, but they do require interest payments. That could be an alternative set up for this. It would still require a legally binding mortgage and either a fixed interest rate or a rate that floats relative to some external reference rate.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a home equity loan that requires the home owners to move out and pay rent?
Instead of interest the shareholders will receive weekly dividends.
As already pointed out, you are confusing things by mixing investment types. Forget the GLBSE dividend paying investments for a moment. For me to invest I would need to see the following occur.
Get an independent market valuation from a licensed valuer. Provide statements of exact amounts of tax owing. Work out your equity by subtracting tax owing from valuation. Sign a legally binding mortgage to a trusted third party escrow. (If the third party escrow has sufficient reputation in the bitcoin securities world, you would not need to publicly reveal your address. A statement from the escrow that they hold a mortgage would be enough.) Get an independent valuation of the rent that would be payable on an arm's length basis. Either you, or preferably the third party, issues GLBSE assets for no more than 80 % of the equity. You sell at least enough to cover the tax, but more if you like. Proceeds are used first pay off your tax. Each month, you pay to the third party escrow 80 % (or whatever percentage of assets issued) of the market rent for the house, and this rent is distributed as dividends. You may deduct any genuine expenses for the house from the rental income by providing the thrid party escrow with receipts. If you own some of the GLBSE assets yourself, you get some of the rent back. If you issue more assets than is needed to pay the tax, you can invest some of this in dividend paying GLBSE investments. If these go well, you keep all the income yourself and use it to help pay your rent. If your investments bomb, you are still up for rental payments, and if you stop paying rent, the investors can choose to evict you and put someone else in or foreclose on the house.
I would be interested in seeing something like this happen. It would be a novel concept to the bitcoin world (although not the first mortgage). I would need to see the valuations and rent appraisal before deciding whether I would invest in such a venture.
Get an independent market valuation from a licensed valuer. Provide statements of exact amounts of tax owing. Work out your equity by subtracting tax owing from valuation. Sign a legally binding mortgage to a trusted third party escrow. (If the third party escrow has sufficient reputation in the bitcoin securities world, you would not need to publicly reveal your address. A statement from the escrow that they hold a mortgage would be enough.) Get an independent valuation of the rent that would be payable on an arm's length basis. Either you, or preferably the third party, issues GLBSE assets for no more than 80 % of the equity. You sell at least enough to cover the tax, but more if you like. Proceeds are used first pay off your tax. Each month, you pay to the third party escrow 80 % (or whatever percentage of assets issued) of the market rent for the house, and this rent is distributed as dividends. You may deduct any genuine expenses for the house from the rental income by providing the thrid party escrow with receipts. If you own some of the GLBSE assets yourself, you get some of the rent back. If you issue more assets than is needed to pay the tax, you can invest some of this in dividend paying GLBSE investments. If these go well, you keep all the income yourself and use it to help pay your rent. If your investments bomb, you are still up for rental payments, and if you stop paying rent, the investors can choose to evict you and put someone else in or foreclose on the house.
I would be interested in seeing something like this happen. It would be a novel concept to the bitcoin world (although not the first mortgage). I would need to see the valuations and rent appraisal before deciding whether I would invest in such a venture.
Thank you for your excellent suggestions.
I would also happily have a representative vist me here.
Who is paying rent to whom? I currently pay no rent and wish to continue doing so. Reinvesting the value of the shares in funds that pay dividends is simply adding more functionality to a simple investment instrument, it is not illegal, it promises guaranteed regular payments and anyone suggesting that investing on GLBSE is excessively risky shouldn't be investing in the first place? (To answer a poster elsewhere.)
There are ETFs on GLBSE that have no such stringent requirements and they are only backed by the funds themselves, you want me to put the collateral up and pay rent?
A home equity loan requires no rental, why should one based on Bitcoin? Banks use collateral to make money all the time?
You don't currently pay rent because you currently own the house. If you sell the house, as your title suggests, either you need to move out, or else pay rent to the new owners of the house, which in this case would be the GLBSE investors.
A home equity loan requires no rental, but they do require interest payments. That could be an alternative set up for this. It would still require a legally binding mortgage and either a fixed interest rate or a rate that floats relative to some external reference rate.
As already pointed out, you are confusing things by mixing investment types. Forget the GLBSE dividend paying investments for a moment. For me to invest I would need to see the following occur.
Get an independent market valuation from a licensed valuer. Provide statements of exact amounts of tax owing. Work out your equity by subtracting tax owing from valuation. Sign a legally binding mortgage to a trusted third party escrow. (If the third party escrow has sufficient reputation in the bitcoin securities world, you would not need to publicly reveal your address. A statement from the escrow that they hold a mortgage would be enough.) Get an independent valuation of the rent that would be payable on an arm's length basis. Either you, or preferably the third party, issues GLBSE assets for no more than 80 % of the equity. You sell at least enough to cover the tax, but more if you like. Proceeds are used first pay off your tax. Each month, you pay to the third party escrow 80 % (or whatever percentage of assets issued) of the market rent for the house, and this rent is distributed as dividends. You may deduct any genuine expenses for the house from the rental income by providing the thrid party escrow with receipts. If you own some of the GLBSE assets yourself, you get some of the rent back. If you issue more assets than is needed to pay the tax, you can invest some of this in dividend paying GLBSE investments. If these go well, you keep all the income yourself and use it to help pay your rent. If your investments bomb, you are still up for rental payments, and if you stop paying rent, the investors can choose to evict you and put someone else in or foreclose on the house.
I would be interested in seeing something like this happen. It would be a novel concept to the bitcoin world (although not the first mortgage). I would need to see the valuations and rent appraisal before deciding whether I would invest in such a venture.
Get an independent market valuation from a licensed valuer. Provide statements of exact amounts of tax owing. Work out your equity by subtracting tax owing from valuation. Sign a legally binding mortgage to a trusted third party escrow. (If the third party escrow has sufficient reputation in the bitcoin securities world, you would not need to publicly reveal your address. A statement from the escrow that they hold a mortgage would be enough.) Get an independent valuation of the rent that would be payable on an arm's length basis. Either you, or preferably the third party, issues GLBSE assets for no more than 80 % of the equity. You sell at least enough to cover the tax, but more if you like. Proceeds are used first pay off your tax. Each month, you pay to the third party escrow 80 % (or whatever percentage of assets issued) of the market rent for the house, and this rent is distributed as dividends. You may deduct any genuine expenses for the house from the rental income by providing the thrid party escrow with receipts. If you own some of the GLBSE assets yourself, you get some of the rent back. If you issue more assets than is needed to pay the tax, you can invest some of this in dividend paying GLBSE investments. If these go well, you keep all the income yourself and use it to help pay your rent. If your investments bomb, you are still up for rental payments, and if you stop paying rent, the investors can choose to evict you and put someone else in or foreclose on the house.
I would be interested in seeing something like this happen. It would be a novel concept to the bitcoin world (although not the first mortgage). I would need to see the valuations and rent appraisal before deciding whether I would invest in such a venture.
Thank you for your excellent suggestions.
I would also happily have a representative vist me here.
Who is paying rent to whom? I currently pay no rent and wish to continue doing so. Reinvesting the value of the shares in funds that pay dividends is simply adding more functionality to a simple investment instrument, it is not illegal, it promises guaranteed regular payments and anyone suggesting that investing on GLBSE is excessively risky shouldn't be investing in the first place? (To answer a poster elsewhere.)
There are ETFs on GLBSE that have no such stringent requirements and they are only backed by the funds themselves, you want me to put the collateral up and pay rent?
A home equity loan requires no rental, why should one based on Bitcoin? Banks use collateral to make money all the time?
Dear investors;
I have been in private contact with punningclan and his tone is somewhat different in PM; he has spurned every advance I have made towards representing him on this deal with CPA as a PR firm and/or insurance or notarization agent, and has so far talked around signing any kind of contract which would be legally binding. He has, to his credit, remained polite. But his reasons are simply that "he wants to trust the GLBSE", "trust this" and "trust that"; it basically boils down to "trust me, I'm not a crook! I am not a crook!"
This does not mean that punningclan is a fraud; it just means that for whatever reason, he refuses to be held legally accountable in any way for his actions with this issue. The term "buyer beware" is appropriate here; He has announced his house is about to be seized by the government and he refuses to sign a real, legally binding contract tying him to his house or his issue. If you invest with him and this turns out to be a fraud, or even if it's not a fraud and the government gets involved and takes the house, you will have no recourse, none. You won't be able to sue, you won't even be able to report him to the police.
If punningclan wishes to open up discussions and sign a real, legally binding contract with CPA, we'd be pleased to represent his issue.
You are failing to mention the #1 source of risk, which is that you don't pay out the dividends you own to investors, and/or don't pay back the principle (i.e. buy back the shares). For example, because you invest that principle in GLBSE assets which could underperform.
Seriously, red flags, man.
Seriously, red flags, man.
Isn't that a red flag against all GLBSE dividend baring stocks any one of them could stop paying the dividends but then the value of the stock would plummet to everyones misfortune, including mine. The dividends will be based on the returns from the reinvested funds based on their performance.
I'm beginning to see the difficulty in my approach, instead of just one banker I have to appeal to hundreds, but I beleive it's worth it to avoid paying interest for loaned money that does not exist.
The idea is that if the house goes up in value then the shares should be more valuable, is that a problem?
You don't need to appeal to "hundreds" of people if you appeal to the right ones ;-)
I don't think you realize how difficult it will be to have your issue listed. You are not a business, you are a private HELOC. You have NO way of paying dividends on your issue. NO ONE will invest with you. You stated your house was going to be seized. You shot yourself in the foot by saying that.
Please consider that there are currently NO such issues (collateral loans) on the GLBSE right now. It is not like people have not tried. Most recently ciuciu tried to start a COOP, and there have been real-estate discussions before. They end up going nowhere.
I'd like to help you get listed and make your venture profitable. What you do once you are listed and selling shares is up to you. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you don't hire me or someone else, you will simply not be able to list. There are just too many red flags, and you did in fact say the house was about to be seized in the OP.
I may be wrong, you could be able to list and succeed on your own; I just don't think it is likely.
Good luck!
Are you really saying that all the Bitcoineers you profess to stand for have completely decried collateral based loans even given they are the foremost loan instrument in the world? And if so why do you think you can manage it?
The poster also needs to keep abreast of the current facts in this proposal.
Thank you again.
I think you should ask for a USD home equity loan and invest in glbse so you get returns in bitcoins.
If you are paying 5% per annum for this loan and earning a 4% or more weekly yield on glbse it should cover the repayments.
This is where it would be nice if there was a service that let you deposit fiat to get bitcoin returns.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/proposal-glbse-share-brokerage-index-fund-89558 this is possibly related.
I would really like to start such a venture as I see a demand for it.
Also you could cover the tax with those returns. You just need people to loan the fiat not bitcoins
If you are paying 5% per annum for this loan and earning a 4% or more weekly yield on glbse it should cover the repayments.
This is where it would be nice if there was a service that let you deposit fiat to get bitcoin returns.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/proposal-glbse-share-brokerage-index-fund-89558 this is possibly related.
I would really like to start such a venture as I see a demand for it.
Also you could cover the tax with those returns. You just need people to loan the fiat not bitcoins
What about setting up a company that does house mortgages or partial mortgages on glbse ?
Dont list the house but instead use it as collateral to set up a mortgage broker
Eventually people will want to pay their house repayments using btc.
Dont list the house but instead use it as collateral to set up a mortgage broker
Eventually people will want to pay their house repayments using btc.
This is an awesome idea!
I would certainly consider doing this with trusted forum members. I'm not a lawyer but if there are some on the forum we should appeal to them, as much as I detest the paperwork some of this might need a degree of that.
As already pointed out, you are confusing things by mixing investment types. Forget the GLBSE dividend paying investments for a moment. For me to invest I would need to see the following occur.
Get an independent market valuation from a licensed valuer. Provide statements of exact amounts of tax owing. Work out your equity by subtracting tax owing from valuation. Sign a legally binding mortgage to a trusted third party escrow. (If the third party escrow has sufficient reputation in the bitcoin securities world, you would not need to publicly reveal your address. A statement from the escrow that they hold a mortgage would be enough.) Get an independent valuation of the rent that would be payable on an arm's length basis. Either you, or preferably the third party, issues GLBSE assets for no more than 80 % of the equity. You sell at least enough to cover the tax, but more if you like. Proceeds are used first pay off your tax. Each month, you pay to the third party escrow 80 % (or whatever percentage of assets issued) of the market rent for the house, and this rent is distributed as dividends. You may deduct any genuine expenses for the house from the rental income by providing the thrid party escrow with receipts. If you own some of the GLBSE assets yourself, you get some of the rent back. If you issue more assets than is needed to pay the tax, you can invest some of this in dividend paying GLBSE investments. If these go well, you keep all the income yourself and use it to help pay your rent. If your investments bomb, you are still up for rental payments, and if you stop paying rent, the investors can choose to evict you and put someone else in or foreclose on the house.
I would be interested in seeing something like this happen. It would be a novel concept to the bitcoin world (although not the first mortgage). I would need to see the valuations and rent appraisal before deciding whether I would invest in such a venture.
Get an independent market valuation from a licensed valuer. Provide statements of exact amounts of tax owing. Work out your equity by subtracting tax owing from valuation. Sign a legally binding mortgage to a trusted third party escrow. (If the third party escrow has sufficient reputation in the bitcoin securities world, you would not need to publicly reveal your address. A statement from the escrow that they hold a mortgage would be enough.) Get an independent valuation of the rent that would be payable on an arm's length basis. Either you, or preferably the third party, issues GLBSE assets for no more than 80 % of the equity. You sell at least enough to cover the tax, but more if you like. Proceeds are used first pay off your tax. Each month, you pay to the third party escrow 80 % (or whatever percentage of assets issued) of the market rent for the house, and this rent is distributed as dividends. You may deduct any genuine expenses for the house from the rental income by providing the thrid party escrow with receipts. If you own some of the GLBSE assets yourself, you get some of the rent back. If you issue more assets than is needed to pay the tax, you can invest some of this in dividend paying GLBSE investments. If these go well, you keep all the income yourself and use it to help pay your rent. If your investments bomb, you are still up for rental payments, and if you stop paying rent, the investors can choose to evict you and put someone else in or foreclose on the house.
I would be interested in seeing something like this happen. It would be a novel concept to the bitcoin world (although not the first mortgage). I would need to see the valuations and rent appraisal before deciding whether I would invest in such a venture.
Thank you for your excellent suggestions.
I would also happily have a representative vist me here.
Who is paying rent to whom? I currently pay no rent and wish to continue doing so. Reinvesting the value of the shares in funds that pay dividends is simply adding more functionality to a simple investment instrument, it is not illegal, it promises guaranteed regular payments and anyone suggesting that investing on GLBSE is excessively risky shouldn't be investing in the first place? (To answer a poster elsewhere.)
There are ETFs on GLBSE that have no such stringent requirements and they are only backed by the funds themselves, you want me to put the collateral up and pay rent?
A home equity loan requires no rental, why should one based on Bitcoin? Banks use collateral to make money all the time?
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