Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 123. (Read 2032248 times)

Your prediction will be wrong.

The 'red zone' coincides with an increase in hash rate and price.
Is there a metric for user frustration more useful than percentage of blocks being full?  It might be hard to find a less useful one.

If we rephrase your statement to replace the alarmist "red zone" nonsense with something less panicky and more practical, we get:

A surge in transaction volume has led to a healthy fee market--six months ahead of schedule.

The 7-day moving average of the blocksize is now in the red zone--six months ahead of schedule.

I support Satoshi's ideas.

2d without your FUD and bitcoin is at $318.

No, I only had a feeling that you support cypherdoc's ideas.

Sounds like a good idea. Also something miners can simply do w/o protocol permission.

I personally perceive UTXO bloat as being much worse than blockchain bloat. *looks at his electrum-server*

Thanks for considerate and intelligent reply.  I don't know how anyone could possibly confuse you with the increasingly unstable Frappuccino_Doc of late.

Please don't cite "Reddit posts" as proof any tx with a competitive fee failed to be given proper priority.  Blocktrail or it didn't happen.

Wallets are starting to support RBF and dynamic fees, so stuck payments shouldn't be an issue in the future.

Sidechains and Lightning (spelled it correctly this time!) are coming along nicely:

https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning

https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements

JR's profound "only black markets matter" thesis is greatly enhanced by the fact that "Being your own bank" is considered a criminal activity.

Yes, a fee market was indeed "intended". As was a high-volume of microtransactions:

?? You're confusing me with Cypherdoc and claims on hashfast?


@iCEBREAKER:  while its true of course that black markets have a high margin and so therefore can handle high transaction fees, my honest hope for Bitcoin is that it allows every person to "be their own bank".  I hope that it is not solely useful as currency of choice for criminal activity due to high transaction fees.  That betrays the promise of crypto-currency (IMHO)

RE: sidechains and Lightning  -- these are vaporware right now, and I have seen too many 100million dollar startups fail due to a great vaporware story.  Products have failed because they promise V2 with all these features, so people choose to wait rather than buy V1.  But if you rewind this thread about 6 months you'll see that I was an avid supporter sidechains and lightning. 

Even if the technical details are a slam-dunk, the organizational details may be problematic.  We don't know if individual companies will be backing these functions and therefore be pressure points and behave just like CoinCafe has done for the completely legal action of posting an ad on Backpage -- that is, block it due to fear of litigation.  There is TREMENDOUS power in a 1-hop (no intermediary) peer to peer network with no "sponsoring" company.  The political pressure attack surface is basically zero.


Its unfortunate that certain people can't see the wisdom of reasonable scaling until we are certain that these issues work themselves out in a manner the protects an individual's inalienable right to property and the transactions that implies.

I'm agreeing with you that the stress test was in general a success.  I mean some people had 12-14 hour txn waits (according to reddit posts), but in theory wallets will now be changed to suggest fees dynamically.  But this was a very static situation -- the spammer was issuing txns at a well known fee so it was easy to outbid him (if you read reddit and knew what was going on, which you know most casual users won't do).  But the the point of the spammer was to fill blocks, NOT to get his txns IN a block.  However, the situation will be VERY different when there is sustained 110% demand by people who need their txns in a block.

I admire how you care about poor africans who cannot afford to pay 0.001BTC for transaction while "you"(your white horse) stole 3,000 BTC into your pocket.

Zerg mercilessly assaulted and battered two strawmen IN A ROW.

First, I never said "the underground economy IS going to fit in 1 MB."  And Zerg is incorrect to blanketly assert System D "can't afford high txn fees."  System D is vast, and while some parts of it are highly efficient, other parts (EG the darknet and off-line sex/drug markets) ALREADY thrive despite exceedingly high transactional friction.  EG, the state often locks System D participants in cages and disputes, having no recourse to law, are sometimes settled with (non-state) violence.

Second strawman: "the only thing that will fit the 1MB block limit profile are large settlements between banking institutions."

Zerg must have been asleep for the past year, enjoying pleasant dreams about 8MB (or 20MB, or 200MB) blocks magically scaling Bitcoin to Visa+gold+fiat TPS levels, while the rest of us learned about and grew to appreciate the potential of sidechains and Lightning.

As for the "honestly awesome" quote, MP is predicting and endorsing a meritocratic future where looters (both rich and poor) may not vote themselves plunder created by the efforts of rich industrialists.  That is completely different from the present plutocracy and crony capitalism Bitcoin was built to undermine and eventually consign to the dustbin of history.  If you don't want the Takers to be prevented from appropriating the economic rewards of the Makers, perhaps Bitcoin isn't as good a fit for you as good old BIS fiat.

The 1MB floppy (OLD, BUSTED, BOOO!1!!) vs 20GB usb (NEW, HAWTNESS, YAAAY!1!!) shtick is at this point itself old and busted.

Maybe Zerg disabled signatures and missed the opportunity to read the latest additions to my own artfully curated collection:


The 'stress test' DOS attempt was not a success.  Please, if you are able, cite a tx with a competitive fee that got stuck.

Until such a unicorn is produced, I will side with gmax and quote his scathing quip on the matter of actual reality vs herd-mind consensus:


Damn, I haven't seen someone get served like ^that^ since Pete Sampras retired!  

Great points Zerg. Crippling bitcoin to 1 mb/10 minutes is insane. I can download 5mb/s and upload 2 mb/s with my casual internet connection. Leaving bitcoin this way, feels like using 3,5" floppy discs when your mother already uses 20gb usb sticks.

I suppose miners will make up rules that possibly also are based on the amounts. Anyway, whether there is a single rule, or multiple rules among miners, there will always be an element of randomness.

iCEBREAKER makes 2 posts IN A ROW without ever realizing they espouse mutually incompatible futures for bitcoin.  The first talks about how fees will increase given limited supply of transaction space (block size)  -- a fact that was never in doubt.  And it includes an awesomely honest quote from MP (which others have already commented on) which basically espouses plutocracy -- rule by the rich (although "rule" in this context may be more that the rich do whatever they want and everybody else sucks it up).  

The second post talks about the growth and value of the "underground economy" (of which the black markets are a subset) and how technologies should be focused on it.  However, the underground economy is characterized by lots of small transactions.  The underground economy isn't going to fit in 1 MB, and can't afford high txn fees (please read Hernando De Soto, The mystery of Capital).  The only thing that will fit the 1MB block limit profile are large settlements between banking institutions.

The recent spam was a technical test and succeeded, as far as it went (we did not see the sustained mempool growth we will see when demand is consistently above 100%).  But it was not a social test.  Recently on reddit we are hearing exciting reports of 1000s of new customers (likely operating in the underground economy) getting their first bitcoin ($5 to $10 worth) for backpage advertisements.  

What if the message coming from them had been different?  What if it had been: "This is unusable.  I don't want to pay this $1 (aggregate of a minimum of 3 txns, 1 xfer to wallet, 1 to plausible deniability address, 1 to backpage) fee to get $5 of backpage ads.  And its taking forever to see the bitcoin actually show up in my phone!"

i'll be offline for the next 3d camping.  have fun with your new Master "iCEBlow"  et al!

the saddest part of that article is here:

"This is exactly the point and the intent of Bitcoin : to force the poor to yield to the rich, universally, as a matter of course."

Cripplecoiners are going to be worse than our current financial elite.

lol, quoting Popescu?  what a joke:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cs3q8/bitcoin_price_rallies_sharply_as_robust/

also, look thru the comments of that link you put.  even large tx's got held up for 12h or so.

Bitcoin is working despite you Cripplecoiners.  we'll never realize Bitcoin's true growth potential until we lift the limit.