Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1251.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: justusranvier on October 28, 2013, 05:30:41 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 28, 2013, 05:08:42 PM

those lines for the start of the threads really don't do them justice. don't forget they represent a ratio so the plunge in BTC from July 2011 to Nov 2011 cause the peak in btwn the start of the 2 threads even though gold had started its decline. it's just that BTC crashed faster than gold.

It's difficult to capture the gold:USD, USD:BTC, and gold:BTC ratios in a single line graph.

In either case, if somebody dumped all their gold and bought BTC at the beginning of either one of these threads and sat on their position they've done very well by now.

Especially considering since the start of this thread the BTC:gold ratio has been in almost continual ~~freefall~~ ascent.

ftfy.

you cannot capture the trading granularity with the one line graph. hence the granularity of this thread and the newsletter. more than once i've had to justify my claimed trades by linking back to specific posts in my history here after having been slammed to the wall by the likes of silverbox, MatthewLM, bitcool, etc (you know, goldbugs). it's all here.

tvbcof

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Quote from: cypherdoc on October 28, 2013, 05:19:31 PM

don't worry, i get plenty wrong too.

this f*ckin Dow just won't go down and i've been over a year too early on the short side. one of these days i'll be right. Tongue

but the thing is, i've been SO right with gold and BTC i've been able to hold that pair trade (long Bitcoin:short stocks) the whole time with huge returns. i think we're getting close to hitting on both sides of that trade though.

if you trade long enough, you'll realize if you can be right more often than wrong you're doing good. if you can be right for 2 out of the 3 markets you're trading in, that's real good.

I cannot see how you got so screwed on taxes WRT gold. I have a CPA do my books and I didn't seem to have gotten hit nearly as hard. 2013 is going to be an interesting year due to my starting to take BTC profits.

The really interesting thing will happen if/when people start to exchange BTC for PM's (and vice-versa) directly in a major way.

justusranvier

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Quote from: cypherdoc on October 28, 2013, 05:08:42 PM

those lines for the start of the threads really don't do them justice. don't forget they represent a ratio so the plunge in BTC from July 2011 to Nov 2011 cause the peak in btwn the start of the 2 threads even though gold had started its decline. it's just that BTC crashed faster than gold.

It's difficult to capture the gold:USD, USD:BTC, and gold:BTC ratios in a single line graph.

In either case, if somebody dumped all their gold and bought BTC at the beginning of either one of these threads and sat on their position they've done very well by now.

Especially considering since the start of this thread the BTC:gold ratio has been in almost continual freefall.

cypherdoc

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don't worry, i get plenty wrong too.

this f*ckin Dow just won't go down and i've been over a year too early on the short side. one of these days i'll be right. Tongue

but the thing is, i've been SO right with gold and BTC i've been able to hold that pair trade (long Bitcoin:short stocks) the whole time with huge returns. i think we're getting close to hitting on both sides of that trade though.

if you trade long enough, you'll realize if you can be right more often than wrong you're doing good. if you can be right for 2 out of the 3 markets you're trading in, that's real good.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: justusranvier on October 28, 2013, 04:29:21 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on October 28, 2013, 03:58:54 PM

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.

First vertical line is the start of the "Gold: I smell a trap" thread.

Second vertical line is the start of this thread.

those lines for the start of the threads really don't do them justice. don't forget they represent a ratio so the plunge in BTC from July 2011 to Nov 2011 cause the peak in btwn the start of the 2 threads even though gold had started its decline. it's just that BTC crashed faster than gold and then rebounded.

i'm not going to sit here and brag but if you go back thru my posts, i started selling silver at the peak of $49 with avg cost out @ $44. the Gold I Smell a Trap thread, 8/9/11, was perfectly timed to the peak in gold @ 1923.7 in Sept 2011. my BTC buying started Apr 2011 as well. Tongue

cypherdoc

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Quote from: tvbcof on October 28, 2013, 03:58:54 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on October 28, 2013, 03:44:08 PM

Quote from: justusranvier on October 28, 2013, 03:40:56 PM

- image -

and here i thought i was early.

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.

The lesson to be learned here in my opinion is that diversity is a good thing. I'm delighted by Bitcoin's performance and more hopeful then ever that we've not seen anything yet. But I also would not be surprised to see a very ugly step function representing Bitcoin's failure.

- edit: fix quotes.

it wasn't just you. it was me against all the goldbugs. it's all here in the threads. there were a lot of them.

i've been thinking over the last few days just how much this thread has calmed down since its beginning days. you actually had to be here to appreciate just how much trolling i suffered through to make this point. i seem to have this gift in attracting large groups of ppl who hate what i have to say for prolonged periods of time. Wink

the goldbugs were the first, the shorts during the Bitcoin Depression of 2011 second, and finally the Hashfast haters.

and to be fair, you were one of the few with me during the battle with the shorts.

tvbcof

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Quote from: justusranvier on October 28, 2013, 04:29:21 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on October 28, 2013, 03:58:54 PM

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.

First vertical line is the start of the "Gold: I smell a trap" thread.

Second vertical line is the start of this thread.

- image with lines -

Huh. I remembered it differently. I suppose because I was doing the 'year performance' thing for a while in a (seemingly successful) attempt to annoy cypherdoc

notme

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Quote from: justusranvier on October 28, 2013, 04:29:21 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on October 28, 2013, 03:58:54 PM

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.

First vertical line is the start of the "Gold: I smell a trap" thread.

Second vertical line is the start of this thread.

Now if only you could link to the post in the "I smell a trap" thread that occurs closest to the peak in between Wink

.

justusranvier

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Quote from: tvbcof on October 28, 2013, 03:58:54 PM

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.

First vertical line is the start of the "Gold: I smell a trap" thread.

Second vertical line is the start of this thread.

tvbcof

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Quote from: cypherdoc on October 28, 2013, 03:44:08 PM

Quote from: justusranvier on October 28, 2013, 03:40:56 PM

- image -

and here i thought i was early.

Put a mark on the chart from when you started this thread and chuckle about how long you had to suck it up and take abuse from the likes of me.

The lesson to be learned here in my opinion is that diversity is a good thing. I'm delighted by Bitcoin's performance and more hopeful then ever that we've not seen anything yet. But I also would not be surprised to see a very ugly step function representing Bitcoin's failure.

- edit: fix quotes.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: justusranvier on October 28, 2013, 03:40:56 PM

and here i thought i was early.

justusranvier

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oakpacific

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Quote from: rocks on October 27, 2013, 11:28:33 AM

Quote from: molecular on October 27, 2013, 03:42:22 AM

Quote from: Zangelbert Bingledack on October 27, 2013, 03:38:49 AM

Quote from: molecular on October 27, 2013, 03:09:34 AM

posession, ownership, control ... I think we need to get these straight.

In Bitcoin, there is no such thing as ownership besides control (which in Bitcoin is the same as possession).

Ok, I can live with that.

Yes, getting these straight is important.

I think a main source of confusion is under a proper system of english common law where we live under the rule of established law and not under the rule of men, ownership = control. But when this legal framework breaks down (such as FDR's 1933 order) then ownership no longer equals control and the concepts of possession become important towards maintaining control.

So with Gold ownership equals control until the rule of law breaks down. With bitcoin the concept of possession is stronger than with gold so when the rule of law breaks down you still maintain stronger control. But as others have pointed out the state and still torture you till they get your coins, so the concepts of possession and control are stronger than with gold but not absolute. It is easier for the government to take your gold and/or inflate your money away than it is from them to torture you, but the state can do both...

Use deniable encryption or brainwallet(properly secured)

oakpacific

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Quote from: molecular on October 27, 2013, 03:09:34 AM

posession, ownership, control ... I think we need to get these straight.

Gavin seemed to have implied control=ownership for Bitcoin here: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/3840286/raw/b6834fc5ac1367cde3417781a329475f7b99430b/brainwallets.md

Quote

If there are unspent bitcoins associated with that passphrase, your software should also immediately send those bitcoins to your wallet. That is your way of letting the other person know they chose a bad passphrase, and your reward for letting them know they need to move the coins in their main brainwallet.

conspirosphere.tk

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Bitcoin is antisemitic

Quote from: Zangelbert Bingledack on October 28, 2013, 02:31:23 AM

Yes, multiple parties controlling the same coins are an exception.

not at all: it's like gold stored in a safe of which 2 or more ppl can have the key.

Zangelbert Bingledack

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Zangelbert Bingledack on October 27, 2013, 03:38:49 AM

In Bitcoin, there is no such thing as ownership besides control (which in Bitcoin is the same as possession).

[sematics]I disagree, because with Bitcoin, two (or more) people can control the same bitcoins, in which case it becomes a race to send them first.

In Bitcoin, there is no such thing as ownership besides your ability to prevent everyone else's control (which in Bitcoin is the same as possession).

In other words, to own or possess bitcoin(s), you must be the sole controller of the private key.[/semantics]

I think this is an important distinction. o_O

Yes, multiple parties controlling the same coins are an exception.

justusranvier

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Bitcoin doesn't care about our human concepts of possession and ownership and control.

Bitcoin is a self-contained system of rules. Those rules say that we have a blockchain containing a list of precise, cryptographic conditions which are necessary and sufficient to transform the blockchain in particular ways.

If we want Bitcoin to behave in in a manner that matches our preconceived notions of property and ownership, the onus is on us to use Bitcoin's rules in a way that achieves what we want.

Bitcoin is in no way limited to only behaving in ways that match our expectations. Bitcoin can do anything which is allowed by its rules, including operations that have no equivalent in our existing property and ownership paradigms.

cypherdoc

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https://medium.com/p/9112bbfd40dc

rocks

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Quote from: molecular on October 27, 2013, 03:42:22 AM

Quote from: Zangelbert Bingledack on October 27, 2013, 03:38:49 AM

Quote from: molecular on October 27, 2013, 03:09:34 AM

posession, ownership, control ... I think we need to get these straight.

In Bitcoin, there is no such thing as ownership besides control (which in Bitcoin is the same as possession).

Ok, I can live with that.

Yes, getting these straight is important.

I think a main source of confusion is under a proper system of english common law where we live under the rule of established law and not under the rule of men, ownership = control. But when this legal framework breaks down (such as FDR's 1933 order) then ownership no longer equals control and the concepts of possession become important towards maintaining control.

So with Gold ownership equals control until the rule of law breaks down. With bitcoin the concept of possession is stronger than with gold so when the rule of law breaks down you still maintain stronger control. But as others have pointed out the state and still torture you till they get your coins, so the concepts of possession and control are stronger than with gold but not absolute. It is easier for the government to take your gold and/or inflate your money away than it is from them to torture you, but the state can do both...

vokain

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Quote from: wachtwoord on October 27, 2013, 09:38:11 AM

Quote from: molecular on October 27, 2013, 05:37:41 AM

You Have even more options: of you have people you trust you can distribute parts of the key to them (for example using shamir secret sharing). It's questionable whether you'd want this. In case of torture maybe you want to be able to give then access. But it is possible to protect your holdings even against that, albeit not without introducing some other risks.

In SF books people often have automatic self-euthanasia options build in that can be triggered mentally. If this ever becomes available I will have it installed. "Let me go now, or I'll euthanize myself and you'll never have anything!"

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation
Be weary of remote (de)activation!

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1251. (Read 2032272 times)