Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 342. (Read 2032286 times)

No, I did. And will continue to address the monumental defence erected by Z.B.:

Original theses:



The arbitrage works if enough of the existing holders of the new chain truly believe in the old chain, and are in the new chain only to make money. I don't chastise anyone for thinking this way as there is hardly anyone in the myriads of other alts who believes in their alt more than in BTC, so it's convenient to assume that this is the case universally.

However, the premise outlines the case that there is a split in the opinion how the main chain should continue, and both sides perceive that the other side's opinion spells doom for the experiment. Thus there is no thinking or incentive to come back - the same way how Bitcoin has managed to gain and preserve a formidable marketcap. It has taken a lot of brunt, but I for instance, don't - and cannot - go back to fiat, because I perceive that as a destructive move regarding my capital. Everyone reading this has the same thinking, so now I urge you to consider the situation where you honestly believe that your solution preserves Bitcoin, and the other camp's one turns it into fiat.

If the new chain starts out empty, there is no one to sell. Everyone who exits the old chain, obtains some value in the new chain, and the wealth effect as calculated from the actual net new capital flows, is 4x-10x. So the new chain does generate a lot of wealth effect (note that the wealth effect multiplier is calculated from the existing data, which have totally allowed the portfolio balancing back to the original chain, eg. BTC/USD rate increase in Mt.Gox in 2010 did allow conversion back to USD, yet the wealth effect was 10x - this is based on many factors that are outside the scope of this post but I have researched them).

If we go closer to the situation in the "protocol split scenario", we can take Crypto Kingdom and CKG as an example. It is not a "push" asset, it is a "pull" asset ("push" is a refuge out from the unwanted chain (example: gold), "pull" is a wanted chain (cars), and both Bitcoin and Monero are a mixture of escapist and going-forward tendencies). CK has only absorbed about $50k of value from the outside world, and its market cap is persistently in the order of $500k. This value has come from somewhere, either it is newly generated digital wealth because a new interesting thing has become available (new digital wealth is generated at a very high rate worldwide!) or some other chains have suffered a loss of interest, and of valuation. Until now the effect is of course not noticeable from the volatility in the other chains, as we only have 100 characters and a very meager marketcap.

But for the sake of getting the point, you just have to envision a scenario where the new chain is either perceived as significantly more desirable than the old, or the old chain as doomed, by a minority of the people originally holding the wealth in the old chain but not going back due to the reasons, and the effect is just as described - negative wealth effect in the old chain and positive in the new.

Don't let the current paradigm of altcoins deceive your thinking concerning a perceived "life-or-death" situation.

ADD: The coming (or why not any of the existing ones in history) bond market collapse (or cash hyperinflation, or altcoin-biting-the-dust) comes to mind. We all know that bonds are unrepayable. Yet they represent a large share of "wealth" of for example pension funds. When the collapse is triggered, the first ones exit, causing a large negative wealth effect to the rest. There is no wish for arbitrage after the tipping point. The supermajority is left holding a bag worth nothing in the end.

I have theoretized that the actual event horizon for BTC's demise is when any competitor gains as little as 20% market cap share without gimmicks. In the BTC-dominant environment that is a gargantuan accomplishment, and if it is realized against all odds, I am sure you all see the writing on the wall, (and if not, someone else does - as the majority's opinion is not relevant, everyone stands for himself). The power of minority has never been as prominent.


Now you are talking about the spinoff, my whole agenda is to bring to your attention the higher-than-perceived chance of a new chain abruptly taking ground in the scenario outlined. The reason why you have not perceived the chance as high as it is, is the lack of understanding concerning the wealth effect, and the resultant need of no supermajority but only a small minority deciding to convincingly move, to achieve unwanted consequences to the majority.

In short, as is the case with CK, the ones not migrating there do not have holdings there, and do not have voice, vote or exit available in there, and we can therefore happily hold our CKG "coins" which are now 8x more valuable than 6 months ago, perhaps the best performance in cryptoland.


After taking 2 days to think whether this is correct, and if not, how I would refute it, I have reached the conclusion that I don't believe you are correct, and have given anecdotal evidence supporting my viewpoint. Yet I don't hold a great confidence that many would only because of them, change their thinking on the subject. It is a deep matter and my extensive (if anything in cryptosphere can be classified as such ) research has pointed me to think the way I do, and being familiar with the concepts and data is almost a prerequisite for understanding it.

Don't forget insincere. Everything it says is not intended for any face value, always for some confabulated, tortured effect. Highly intelligent, but applied entirely to social engineering from several perspectives at once (i.e. how the entire discourse is perceived by all actors at all levels of psychological investment in said discourse).

Slight correction because privacy can be orthogonal to legality if the technology and will is sufficient.

This excellent rebuttal demonstrates the very inferior logic skills of those who incessantly and unapologetically continue their irrational diarrhea (then ad hominem attack me and accuse me of doing what they do).

Well you're right about not earning much, and if that's the sole issue it's perfectly understandable.

But I disagree that "political posturing" would have anything to do with your commits being rejected. Good work is good work... it doesn't matter who submits the pull request... and I'm confident the devs would appreciate the help, so don't let your past disagreements get in the way of making things better.

When the law became unbearable in Rome, the people abandoned their land. Later there were cows grazing in the city of Rome. The population fell from 1.3 million to 30,000 in a waterfall collapse.

My thesis is as follows.

We are headed into a NWO tempest where there is no rule of law, only a rule of oblivious addicted masses and gestapo bankster coattail goons.

I long ago gave up on keeping the world we have now, with all our Walmarts, etc..

I am ready to move forward to the world where we sell downloadable 3D printer products anonymously for micropayments, etc..

Your old world will die a slow death of increasing totalitarianism over decades. It will waterfall into collapse 2018 - 2020, then the banksters will reset the global economy on the NWO reserve and institute an increasing level of totalitarian control over humanity in the old world contexts where they can. Over decades that economy will wither and destroy itself. The capital remaining in that old economy will wither and be destroyed within that system.

Realize that the mavericks who shape our world are usually scorned and rejected when they present radical visions of the future.

Add: that doesn't mean I give up hope on every individual in the world. I want to build out the future and those who avail of it will prosper. It is not my job to hold every person's hand and force them to choose. The gate to prosperity is narrow only because the people refuse, not because the opportunity is limited or restrictive.

Did I start the discussion of BTC -> altcoin avalance effect? Did I start the discussion on Monero here?

Every one of my posts an on topic reply to what others posted on those topics I did not start. As for the thread title, no one has been posting on topic. As for the OP inquiry into Bitcoin blockchain scaling, I was posting on that topic before this latest diversion was started (not by myself!).

Your ad hominen noise bullshit is clear for anyone who wants to open their eyes.

Are you Bitards really so insecure and void of counter-points that you can't even discuss the topics without slandering anyone who makes strong points?

P.S. your pathetic attempts to make it appear that you have a consensus against me is failing. I know very well I am winning the readership. I have ways of measuring this effect. You forget I am a marketer and a programmer.

This is like the Mayweather vs. Pacquiao fight. Eventually you need to respond with more than a tap dance, else the public will ignore your "victory".

Thanks for the motivation to make you eat those words. Please fire me up. You have no idea who you are talking down to.

Are you really a man of dark colored skin? (yes I am aware that negros have statistically lower IQs, doesn't necessary explain this case but it might especially if you are using an avatar which does not reflect who you are but rather some image you want to present)

I think that would afford too much credit to him, personally. I dont think he wants to actually argue or debate at all. To me, it looks like a character, short on ways to express himself in day to day life, who is able to regurgitate here, the dictionary he eats daily for breakfast.

I stopped reading his self-righteous rambling nonsense, because the few nuggets of apparent wisdom just didnt seem worth the effort to extract, from said ramblings.

Intelligent, yes. Wise, no way.

Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION'

Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a 'RESOURCE BURN.' By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to 'drive in the wedge.' By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.

This account is a blatant parody/caricature of "babbling deluded bitcoin loser with an inferiority complex", and I know I'm not the only person who perceives it that way. I will not tolerate any attempted association with me or anything I say. Get out (I realise it won't leave, but someone has to say something unambiguous every now and then, and attempting to talk to me is where I draw the line).

They don't need to outlaw Monero unless it becomes popular and used for paying for goods & services. They can just blacklist all BTC trades which didn't have KYC documentation. This effectively blacklists Monero since virtually no one pays directly in Monero for goods & services.

I don't (currently) see a niche where Monero would have any scale for users to resort to in that case. You'd have few 1000s of investors without a way to sell.

For me at this time, Monero is useful as a way to mix BTC -> XMR -> BTC. And as a speculation on people not understanding that Monero doesn't solve any other problem than that.

Sorry to be so blunt because I am really glad that Monero exists! I feel a sense of gratitude for Cryptonote and Monero, but how to express it if I also feel more needs to be done? Am I supposed to go volunteer my time to code on Monero and then have my commits be rejected due to political posturing and also probably not earn anything significant. I just don't know how to pay my appreciation without it looking like I am the enemy. Maybe I am the enemy. I'd rather be the cohort.

Any way, whether I am correct or not, this is my stance. I have given up on pop action driven by being a martyr.


In my personal case:

Altruistic: because I can be more effective by being available to code than I can be behind prison bars as a voice that the masses will ignore.

Selfish: I enjoy my life as it is now (especially I have no appear to eliminated the worst of the Multiple Sclerosis suffering from my daily life).

Remember the Biblical verse, "you are not of this world", "do not caste your pearls at swine".

I suppose I subscribe to Arlyn Rand's philosophy in the sense that I should only do what also benefits myself. I don't believe the humans should or would create a great society by acting entirely unselfishly. Without a selfish motive, I don't think evolution would function and nature would not be resilient. I enjoy being unselfish to the extent that is selfish overall (e.g. it makes me feel good, fosters a world that is better for me to live in, etc). For example when I do charity, I do it because for example I had experienced the same suffering and I know how much it would have helped me if someone had been similarly emphatic to my suffering.

As for the Americans in general, the people who existed at the time of Thomas Paine no longer exist. Even amongst the most independent-minded and rugged (rural) Americans, I bet you find them supporting all sorts of collective actions such as "Americans go kick ass on Saddam Hussein just as we did to the Japs".

The (too large) society has divided into so many pet peeves and the only thing holding it together is the debt and socialism economy. There is no cohesion and lurking is chaos because really the people have so many divergent opinions and fantasies. When the economy turns down hard, they will kill each other (actually I see this starting already on the news)

Consider this, most Americans today could not understand the language in "Common Sense"; whereas, apparently > 50% could comprehend that level of literary exposition at that time.

I am by no means claiming to be an expert on US History nor the current state of the USA, but I think it is obvious that the Puritans who suffered at the hands of the King then struggled to survive starvation in the USA, where in touch viscerally with the importance of freedom, economics, and knowledge. Whereas today Americans have never gone a day without food. They have no concept of suffering or hardship. They romanticize suffering as if something they know as "Children's International" on TV.

I come at this from the experience of being raised in pop culture in the USA and somehow rejecting it over a decade or two, and then experience real suffering and survival challenges, thus giving me perspective on my origin culture.

Some research has shown that technologically it is not usually difficult to link activity on Bitcoin.

Perhaps you are making the argument that it won't be politically or operationally feasible to do so. I offer the exhibits of England's Admiralty law and the recent application and increase of Civil Asset Forfeiture in the USA (and essentially in Europe too when they seize your cash at border inspections). And the centralization of mining is the operational solution.

No. Bitcoin suffers the same fungibility issues as the bank notes you described above. It can be marked and tracked. It cannot be melted down into "pure, unadulterated bitcoin." At best you can mix your coins around with a bunch of other marked and tracked coins. To make matters worse, Bitcoin doesn't even have the "fungibility decree" that comes with bank notes, so nobody is obligated to accept your tainted coins.


I assume you're referring to mixing when you speak of circumventing restrictions. Why do you have to mix coins in the first place if they're so fungible?


Again, no. XMR adopters are building a currency that actually behaves like cash... you know, the type of money that's worked pretty well in "open commerce" for hundreds of years.

Yes, it is true that I am trying to live my life such that punishing me for doing it will result in an public outcry.

Also, if we switch off our humanity to continue our existence, that is actually the winning condition of the enemy! If we go public, go to prison, and to the firing squad, without forsaking our morality, then we win.

I don't know how you can call yourself either white american or native american, as in both cultures staying true to freedom is not to be compromized by such temporary nuisances as prison and death?

It is on old interview of Castoriadis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Castoriadis) where he discusses the issue of autonomy of the individual & the societies as it first manifested in ancient Greek cities and then later on in Western societies.

From the video description:
'Interview with Cornelius Castoriadis for the Greek television network ET1, for the show "Paraskinio," 1984 (with English-language subtitles). This documentary describes the life and the work of Cornelius Castoriadis and his turning from Marxism to the ideas of autonomy.
Central role in this film plays the concept of autonomy. They are being presented two historical moments of autonomous societies - the ancient Greek democracy and the medieval European communities. The democracy of ancient Athens formulates the ideas of the big philosopher and his definitions for direct democracy and autonomy.
What means "politics"? What means "revolution" nowadays? Which is the crisis of the western societies? To these questions Castoriadis search answers all his life. But in order to find such, he quits from the ready ideological answers and he decides not to follow dogmas. In the film it is presented his critic to capitalistic system as well as to the soviet regime and to Marxism. "Nowadays the dilemma is to be or a Marxist or a revolutionary" he claims. In this "no-way out" situation, he proposes to us the alternative of self-management and autonomy.

Cornelius Castoriadis was a Greek- French philosopher, economist and psychoanalyst. His interest in so many cognitive fields such as philosophy, politics, psychoanalysis, economy and biology makes him to be considered as one of the most important philosophers of the 20th century. The concept of autonomy, individual and social one, appears to be a key theme in his work, gaining him the title of "Philosopher of Autonomy". Etymologically, the term autonomy describes the situation in which one society creates itself its laws and institutions.
He lived most of his life in France, where together with personalities such as Lyotard, Guy Debord and Lefort, he co-founded the journal "Socialism or Barbarism", whose texts and ideas strongly influenced the events of May '68. His is author of "The Imaginary Institution of Society" - a work which provokes an explosion to our habits, an explosion of free thought. A work, which represents an intellectual May '68 and just like him, the work of Castoriadis cannot easily be forgotten.'

I don't have time to watch the video. Summary?

I disagree entirely with rpietila that punishing the leaders will result in a public outcry. We have so many examples were it has not (even the Edward Snowden support is turning towards supporting reform that is in the lap of the banksters). Rpietila is very astute on conceptual logic, but i think he is living in a fantasy world in terms of understanding what stage we are in the cycle with the masses (and this is messing up his predictions). The masses are blissfully ignoring everything, even Hillary Clinton's blatant in your face corruption. They only care about their pop-tarts and pop culture. And this is also why I think the Bitcoin folks are deluded (they think some positive change can come via evolution or popular revolution)

I assert you have no hope whatsoever of enacting any change via words or being a public figure. The banksters and the NWO are winning (into a Dark Age of eugenics and global Technocracy). We have not yet challenged it. Monero is the first (and last or will it morph?) salvo.

Any questions on why I would never release an altcoin with my name on it?

Add: I entirely agree no man will get rich and be an island. I have been preaching that in the Economic Totalitarianism thread.

Add#2: I entirely agree the internet should be able to give us the tools to proceed without fear and unabated. But we engineers have to do our job to make it so. It won't just wish itself into existence.

Add#3: Our global society is not at the stage the USA was when Thomas Paine wrote "Common Sense" and the popular opinion shifted from 30% to majority for revolt against Britain. This is a different era and stage in the 309 year cycle.

P.S. rpietila you may be approaching it from a moral or ethical standpoint and the purpose of our lives. I am approaching it less theologically and I assert more pragmatically.

Somehow relevant:
https://youtu.be/hs9ZsKj-o1k?t=1260

Fair point. I am in a rush and don't have time to organize and condense. I am just responding to what I see as I read through the posts since my absence.

Sorry life is not so well organized and structured as you absolutist engineers might wish it to be (hey i have German ancestry and I start off any coding project aiming for perfect, but then reality overtakes me and unlike an analist, I manage to ship the damn code). I have a zillion things to do and just get to pop in here and add my thoughts to the discussion.

Also you have to admit the main problem you have with me is you just don't like me. So it doesn't matter what I do, you will only dislike me less and not like me. My estimation of why people are offended by my posts is because I say things they disagree with  and say it with blunt clarity. I say what I think and don't try to obscure what I think with layers of political correctness, group sensitivity, or pretending I am more ambivalent than I am. I suppose anyone who is passionate is going to irk people are accustomed to viewing passionate people as drama queens or whatever.

I don't have time for all this psychological noise. I wish we could remain focused on the discussion about economics and crypto.