Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 353. (Read 2032266 times)

Quote from: rocks on May 15, 2015, 05:46:12 PM

as Bitcoin has alot of enemies, why do you think we aren't seeing a regular stream of these types of blocks?

I'm not trying to be conspiratorial here, just factual, but there is no real gain in doing it at 1 MB. 1 MB was chosen to be a size that is fairly immune to spamming attacks. Opinions differ I guess about whether 20 MB is similarly immune.

Doesn't make sense that the protocol allows non standard TX's to be accepted in block form by nodes yet at the same time they won't relay or accept them if simply propagated.

The transactions were always valid.

To make them invalid would require a hard fork. We try to avoid hard forks for obvious solutions.

So the compromise was to change bitcoind nodes to only consider certain types of transactions as "standard" and not re-transmit transactions that did not qualify as "standard", these have since been called "non-standard". Along with this change many miners decided to not include these "non-standard" transactions either (but some still do).

This did not require a fork because the base protocol, which is defined by what constitutes a valid block, did not change.

As a consequence, non-standard transactions can still be included in a block because they are valid transactions from a block verification standpoint. However to discourage them, most P2P nodes and most miners ignore them.

So how come they appear in the unconfirmed transaction list on blockchain.info?

Because someone sent them to blockchain.info directly, or they were relayed by a node that ignores the "non-standard" agreement (not rule). blockchain.info's website is also setup to be a view of the network, they include visibility into strange and other transactions. So it would make sense they would also display information on non-standard transactions that most node's won't re-transmit.

Again they are valid transactions, it's just an informal agreement to ignore/limit them. A formal agreement requires a hard fork.

So any code changes made to the Bitcoin Core client do not require forks which is to be distinguished from changes to the protocol which defines what is acceptable as a block and requires a fork?

Erdogan

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Quote from: Erdogan on May 15, 2015, 05:44:02 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on May 15, 2015, 05:44:02 PM

as Bitcoin has alot of enemies, why do you think we aren't seeing a regular stream of these types of blocks?

I'm not trying to be conspiratorial here, just factual, but there is no real gain in doing it at 1 MB. 1 MB was chosen to be a size that is fairly immune to spamming attacks. Opinions differ I guess about whether 20 MB is similarly immune.

Doesn't make sense that the protocol allows non standard TX's to be accepted in block form by nodes yet at the same time they won't relay or accept them if simply propagated.

The transactions were always valid.

To make them invalid would require a hard fork. We try to avoid hard forks for obvious solutions.

So the compromise was to change bitcoind nodes to only consider certain types of transactions as "standard" and not re-transmit transactions that did not qualify as "standard", these have since been called "non-standard". Along with this change many miners decided to not include these "non-standard" transactions either (but some still do).

This did not require a fork because the base protocol, which is defined by what constitutes a valid block, did not change.

As a consequence, non-standard transactions can still be included in a block because they are valid transactions from a block verification standpoint. However to discourage them, most P2P nodes and most miners ignore them.

So how come they appear in the unconfirmed transaction list on blockchain.info?

Because someone sent them to blockchain.info directly, or they were relayed by a node that ignores the "non-standard" agreement (not rule).

Again they are valid transactions, it's just an informal agreement to ignore/limit them. A formal agreement requires a hard fork.

Ok. And I see that the mempool (I run a standard bitcoind) is even bigger, but according to docs the nodes keep invalid transactions, and logically they therefore also keep the nonstandard transactions, in the memory pool until shutdown. There seems to be no way to display the number of valid and standard transactions waiting in the mempool in a standard node. Correct?

Edit: After (upgrade and) restart of my node, the mempool is only 107 long, i guess those are mostly valid and standard transactions waiting to get in.

rocks

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Activity: 1153

Merit: 1000

as Bitcoin has alot of enemies, why do you think we aren't seeing a regular stream of these types of blocks?

I'm not trying to be conspiratorial here, just factual, but there is no real gain in doing it at 1 MB. 1 MB was chosen to be a size that is fairly immune to spamming attacks. Opinions differ I guess about whether 20 MB is similarly immune.

Doesn't make sense that the protocol allows non standard TX's to be accepted in block form by nodes yet at the same time they won't relay or accept them if simply propagated.

The transactions were always valid.

To make them invalid would require a hard fork. We try to avoid hard forks for obvious solutions.

So the compromise was to change bitcoind nodes to only consider certain types of transactions as "standard" and not re-transmit transactions that did not qualify as "standard", these have since been called "non-standard". Along with this change many miners decided to not include these "non-standard" transactions either (but some still do).

This did not require a fork because the base protocol, which is defined by what constitutes a valid block, did not change.

As a consequence, non-standard transactions can still be included in a block because they are valid transactions from a block verification standpoint. However to discourage them, most P2P nodes and most miners ignore them.

So how come they appear in the unconfirmed transaction list on blockchain.info?

Because someone sent them to blockchain.info directly, or they were relayed by a node that ignores the "non-standard" agreement (not rule). blockchain.info's website is also setup to be a view of the network, they include visibility into strange and other transactions. So it would make sense they would also display information on non-standard transactions that most node's won't re-transmit.

Again they are valid transactions, it's just an informal agreement to ignore/limit them. A formal agreement requires a hard fork.

rocks

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NYT has an article claiming Nick is Satoshi.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/business/decoding-the-enigma-of-satoshi-nakamoto-and-the-birth-of-bitcoin.html?_r=0

While I agree the evidence shows him to be in the likely list, there is a pool of other people who worked on similar projects and participated in similar forums, any one of which could be Satoshi as well.

Erdogan

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Activity: 1512

Merit: 1005

as Bitcoin has alot of enemies, why do you think we aren't seeing a regular stream of these types of blocks?

I'm not trying to be conspiratorial here, just factual, but there is no real gain in doing it at 1 MB. 1 MB was chosen to be a size that is fairly immune to spamming attacks. Opinions differ I guess about whether 20 MB is similarly immune.

Doesn't make sense that the protocol allows non standard TX's to be accepted in block form by nodes yet at the same time they won't relay or accept them if simply propagated.

The transactions were always valid.

To make them invalid would require a hard fork. We try to avoid hard forks for obvious solutions.

So the compromise was to change bitcoind nodes to only consider certain types of transactions as "standard" and not re-transmit transactions that did not qualify as "standard", these have since been called "non-standard". Along with this change many miners decided to not include these "non-standard" transactions either (but some still do).

This did not require a fork because the base protocol, which is defined by what constitutes a valid block, did not change.

As a consequence, non-standard transactions can still be included in a block because they are valid transactions from a block verification standpoint. However to discourage them, most P2P nodes and most miners ignore them.

So how come they appear in the unconfirmed transaction list on blockchain.info?

rocks

legendary

Activity: 1153

Merit: 1000

as Bitcoin has alot of enemies, why do you think we aren't seeing a regular stream of these types of blocks?

I'm not trying to be conspiratorial here, just factual, but there is no real gain in doing it at 1 MB. 1 MB was chosen to be a size that is fairly immune to spamming attacks. Opinions differ I guess about whether 20 MB is similarly immune.

Doesn't make sense that the protocol allows non standard TX's to be accepted in block form by nodes yet at the same time they won't relay or accept them if simply propagated.

The transactions were always valid.

To make them invalid would require a hard fork. We try to avoid hard forks for obvious solutions.

So the compromise was to change bitcoind nodes to only consider certain types of transactions as "standard" and not re-transmit transactions that did not qualify as "standard", these have since been called "non-standard". Along with this change many miners decided to not include these "non-standard" transactions either (but some still do).

This did not require a fork because the base protocol, which is defined by what constitutes a valid block, did not change.

As a consequence, non-standard transactions can still be included in a block because they are valid transactions from a block verification standpoint. However to discourage them, most P2P nodes and most miners ignore them.

smooth

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Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

as Bitcoin has alot of enemies, why do you think we aren't seeing a regular stream of these types of blocks?

I'm not trying to be conspiratorial here, just factual, but there is no real gain in doing it at 1 MB. 1 MB was chosen to be a size that is fairly immune to spamming attacks. Opinions differ I guess about whether 20 MB is similarly immune.

Doesn't make sense that the protocol allows non standard TX's to be accepted in block form by nodes yet at the same time they won't relay or accept them if simply propagated.

The main reason it does make sense is that p2p relaying has no fee.

cypherdoc

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Activity: 1764

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as Bitcoin has alot of enemies, why do you think we aren't seeing a regular stream of these types of blocks?

I'm not trying to be conspiratorial here, just factual, but there is no real gain in doing it at 1 MB. 1 MB was chosen to be a size that is fairly immune to spamming attacks. Opinions differ I guess about whether 20 MB is similarly immune.

Doesn't make sense that the protocol allows non standard TX's to be accepted in block form by nodes yet at the same time they won't relay or accept them if simply propagated.

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

as Bitcoin has alot of enemies, why do you think we aren't seeing a regular stream of these types of blocks?

I'm not trying to be conspiratorial here, just factual, but there is no real gain in doing it at 1 MB. 1 MB was chosen to be a size that is fairly immune to spamming attacks. Opinions differ I guess about whether 20 MB is similarly immune.

rocks

legendary

Activity: 1153

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Peter R on May 15, 2015, 02:27:03 PM

as Bitcoin has alot of enemies, why do you think we aren't seeing a regular stream of these types of blocks?

The attacks yield zero profit, and in actuality cost money. Only a government agency (or something similar) not driven by profit and highly motivated to stop bitcoin would bother with these types of blockchain/UTXO bloat attacks.

cypherdoc

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Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

Quote from: Peter R on May 15, 2015, 02:27:03 PM

I was assuming the unconfirmed TX set to stay relatively the same size if the cap was lifted.

First off, you can't take a 1BTC address and create 10000 zero balance outputs with 0.0001BTC fees. They are invalid and wouldn't be accepted by the rest of network.

Second, even if the attacking miner constructs non zero output TX's, he can't just spring this block onto the network filled with those TX's if the network nodes haven't heard about them beforehand. They will reject the bloated block since they don't recognize any of the content.

There's a difference between non-standard transactions and invalid transactions. Non-standard transactions are a subset of valid transactions. Examples of non-standard transactions are TXs with outputs less than the dust limit or TXs with insufficient fees; such transactions may still be valid, however.

Clients do not relay nonstandard transactions, nor accept them into mempool, but will nonetheless accept a solved block that contains them (provided each TX in the block is still valid). Example of blocks full of nonstandard (and pointless) transactions are Block #309657 and Block #309740. They each contain thousands of 1 satoshi dust outputs that will pollute the UTXO set for a long time!

Code:

BLOCK #309740:  10,486 DUST OUTPUTS 
        ADDRESS SENT FROM                                            TX HASH                              N_OUTPUTS     
===================================================================================================================                      
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BLOCK #309657: 7,490 DUST OUTPUTS
        ADDRESS SENT FROM                                            TX HASH                              N_OUTPUTS     
===================================================================================================================  
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A miner can fill a block full of nonsense transactions very easily.

thanks for clarifying that.

as Bitcoin has alot of enemies, why do you think we aren't seeing a regular stream of these types of blocks?

rocks

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Activity: 1153

Merit: 1000

I was assuming the unconfirmed TX set to stay relatively the same size if the cap was lifted.

First off, you can't take a 1BTC address and create 10000 zero balance outputs with 0.0001BTC fees. They are invalid and wouldn't be accepted by the rest of network.

Second, even if the attacking miner constructs non zero output TX's, he can't just spring this block onto the network filled with those TX's if the network nodes haven't heard about them beforehand. They will reject the bloated block since they don't recognize any of the content.

There's a difference between non-standard transactions and invalid transactions. Non-standard transactions are a subset of valid transactions. Examples of non-standard transactions are TXs with outputs less than the dust limit or TXs with insufficient fees; such transactions may still be valid, however.

Clients do not relay nonstandard transactions but will accept a solved block that contains them (provided each TX in the block is still valid). Example of blocks full of nonstandard (and pointless) transactions are Block #309657 and Block #309740. They each contain thousands of 1 satoshi dust outputs that will pollute the UTXO set for a long time!

Code:

BLOCK #309740:  10,486 DUST OUTPUTS 
        ADDRESS SENT FROM                                            TX HASH                              N_OUTPUTS     
===================================================================================================================                      
1Enjoy1C4bYBr3tN4sMKxvvJDqG8NkdR4Z	b2b6112e73cbe0937a1b60c9abfc4c2ca6e26b2612c90ec598b1cd28787a553e	749
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BLOCK #309657: 7,490 DUST OUTPUTS
        ADDRESS SENT FROM                                            TX HASH                              N_OUTPUTS     
===================================================================================================================  
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A miner can fill a block full of nonsense transactions very easily.

Good point on the inclusion of non-standard but valid transactions. What I outlined just included standard & valid transactions. What you outlined is how much further an attacker could push this, here 1BTC could turn into 100M satoshi dush outputs....

On the UTXO topic, the distribution of balances here

http://bitcoinrichlist.com/charts/bitcoin-distribution-by-address?atblock=350000

shows that 96.97% of addresses contain less than 0.001 BTC. Now these are address totals, any analysis of UTXO outputs would show that more than 96.97% of UTXO outputs contain less than 0.001BTC.

I think this shows that the UTXO is already vastly populated by dust nonsense that simply sits around. If UTXO size becomes an issue any intelligent implementation could easily swap these out to a lower tier of storage. Most of this dust will never be spent simply because you'd have to pay more in fees than the output is worth, spending them is literally burning money.

Peter R

legendary

Activity: 1162

Merit: 1007

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 15, 2015, 01:31:47 PM

I was assuming the unconfirmed TX set to stay relatively the same size if the cap was lifted.

First off, you can't take a 1BTC address and create 10000 zero balance outputs with 0.0001BTC fees. They are invalid and wouldn't be accepted by the rest of network.

Second, even if the attacking miner constructs non zero output TX's, he can't just spring this block onto the network filled with those TX's if the network nodes haven't heard about them beforehand. They will reject the bloated block since they don't recognize any of the content.

There's a difference between non-standard transactions and invalid transactions. Non-standard transactions are a subset of valid transactions. Examples of non-standard transactions are TXs with outputs less than the dust limit or TXs with insufficient fees; such transactions may still be valid, however.

Clients do not relay nonstandard transactions, nor accept them into mempool, but will nonetheless accept a solved block that contains them (provided each TX in the block is still valid). Example of blocks full of nonstandard (and pointless) transactions are Block #309657 and Block #309740. They each contain thousands of 1 satoshi dust outputs that will pollute the UTXO set for a long time!

Code:

BLOCK #309740:  10,486 DUST OUTPUTS 
        ADDRESS SENT FROM                                            TX HASH                              N_OUTPUTS     
===================================================================================================================                      
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BLOCK #309657: 7,490 DUST OUTPUTS
        ADDRESS SENT FROM                                            TX HASH                              N_OUTPUTS     
===================================================================================================================  
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A miner can fill a block full of nonsense transactions very easily.

Erdogan

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1005

Russia back onboard apparently:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/362f12/bitcoin_websites_unblocked_in_russia_court_was_won/

The discussion on reddit was about this being reported in the main stream media.

The answer is, if it can be used to smear Russia, it will be reported, if not, it will not be reported (I hope I am wrong).

rocks

legendary

Activity: 1153

Merit: 1000

Quote from: rocks on May 15, 2015, 11:42:56 AM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 15, 2015, 11:09:03 AM

Quote from: sickpig on May 15, 2015, 10:48:43 AM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 15, 2015, 08:46:39 AM

Let me ask again.

Does anyone know the average number of unconfirmed TX's that exist in mempool at any given time, the average size in MB (i know <1) and what % of them get cleared into a block every 10 minutes or so?

https://blockchain.info/en/unconfirmed-transactions

2MB, not much. thus, it appears an attacker would have to construct and broadcast all his own fake or withheld tx's to try and perform this bloated block attack which, imo, is way too expensive and risky even though he would be paying himself his own tx fees.

Well to be fair, the reason why we don't see this attack is because with the 1MB limit it is not possible to pull off. If BTCGuild started to do this, they could only take 3% of the blocks to 1MB, which is immaterial.

I think it would technically be very easy for a pool/miner to add a huge number of transactions into a block. For every address they have with 1BTC, they could create 10,000 transactions with 0.0001 fee each (which they receive back in the coinbase transaction) by simply creating a chain of transactions in rapid succession. With 100BTC, they cloud create 1M transactions at zero cost because they would only include the transactions in their own block and recover the fees.

In the real world though, a pool could only do this a few times before miners would abandon them en mass, destroying the pool's business in the process. So it seems unlikely

At large solo miner with maybe 0.1% or 0.3% of the hash rate could start to inject very large 1GB blocks every 200 or 400 blocks or so, but in that case I could very easily see the rest of the pools agreeing to ignore those massive blocks. And even if they didn't coordinate to ignore them, the large blocks would propagate so slowly they might not be included anyway. (The attack requires transmitting a full block since Gavin's IBLT wouldn't help here).

Another way to address the issue of one or two rouge pools making large blocks, is to set a floating blocksize cap that resets with each difficulty adjustment and is based on an average of the last x number of blocks plus some overhead. Now to implement the attack an attacker would need to create false transactions that everyone mines on to bring up the average, but this would become too expensive since the fees would be lost to other miners.

I was assuming the unconfirmed TX set to stay relatively the same size if the cap was lifted.

First off, you can't take a 1BTC address and create 10000 zero balance outputs with 0.0001BTC fees. They are invalid and wouldn't be accepted by the rest of network.

You start with 1BTC and send 0.9999BTC to a new address with a 0.0001BTC fee -> then 0.9998BTC -> 0.9997BTC and so on until you have created a chain of 10,000 transactions, each paying a 0.0001BTC fee. This is a chain of valid transactions.

Since these fees are recovered by yourself, you don't mind paying them and can do this over and over and over again. For every 100BTC that you control you can create 1M transactions in every block you mine with this attack.