Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 46.

sgbett

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Quote from: brg444 on August 11, 2015, 09:28:03 AM

Quote from: justusranvier on August 11, 2015, 09:24:38 AM

Quote from: brg444 on August 11, 2015, 09:05:12 AM

Right, that would make sense until you realise in both cases (lightning and sidechains) these technologies need bigger blocks to scale.

But before they need to scale, they just might need some help convincing potential users they are even necessary at all.

Are you suggesting they are not?

I'm suggesting that it is putting the cart before the horse.

Let bitcoin scale. Let LN/Sidechains succeed on merit.

smooth

legendary

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Another Lightning implementation effort appears:

http://bitcoinist.net/hashplex-exclusive-interview-lightning-hub-open-source-release/

awemany

newbie

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Quote from: Erdogan on August 11, 2015, 05:12:04 PM

It is resolved. We won. The devil lost.

Is this referring to the blocksize debate? I wouldn't call victory yet. We have pretty good chances to end the blockade and hijacking, but there is still a lot of convincing to do!

I'll say we won when we have a thousand blocks or so on the high block limit chain.

Zangelbert Bingledack

legendary

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Quote from: brg444 on August 12, 2015, 02:11:21 AM

This needs to be read by every doomsayers here:

https://medium.com/@allenpiscitello/there-is-no-crisis-20b58e14b09c

Agreed that crisis will force consensus. It's just that XT is part of that process, whether it serves the purpose of the new Bitcoin implementation or just the pressure that gets Core in gear.

Erdogan

legendary

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Quote from: rebuilder on August 12, 2015, 02:13:05 AM

Quote from: Zangelbert Bingledack on August 12, 2015, 01:46:59 AM

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

Not hard at all. Update the business plan.

iCEBREAKER

legendary

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: Zarathustra on August 12, 2015, 03:51:05 AM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 11, 2015, 06:05:18 PM

At least two people incorrectly assumed and falsely claimed the on-topic Blockstream business plan post had been removed by mods

Moderation of off-topic posts is not censorship. Censorship is done by governments, moderation is done by mods. Duh!

Spare us the wailing about "censored posts" "authoritarianism" and "book burnings." It just makes you look like a child who never heard of Godwin.

"Spare us". Again? Spare me your collectivist 'us'-mentality! I have nothing to do with your us'ers.

"Us" obviously refers to myself, and the mods being called "the epitome of authoritarian" and "ready for book burnings."

Why would you possibly imagine *you* have anything to do with my post? Nobody cares what you think, much less what you are or not spared. Cheesy

Zarathustra

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 11, 2015, 06:05:18 PM

Quote from: Peter R on August 11, 2015, 05:52:36 PM

But no one here claimed that post had been censored. Huh

At least two people incorrectly assumed and falsely claimed the on-topic Blockstream business plan post had been removed by mods:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/ctzetoj

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/ctzbzuh

"censored post ?"

Moderation of off-topic posts is not censorship. Censorship is done by governments, moderation is done by mods. Duh!

Spare us the wailing about "censored posts" "authoritarianism" and "book burnings." It just makes you look like a child who never heard of Godwin.

"Spare us". Again? Spare me your collectivist 'us'-mentality! I have nothing to do with your us'ers.

Natalia_AnatolioPAMM

full member

Activity: 280

Merit: 100

Quote from: lunarboy on August 12, 2015, 02:14:26 AM

China has done it again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33875061

"This is now the biggest two-day lowering of the yuan's rate against the dollar in more than two decades. "

also at ZH http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-11/yuan-collapses-stocks-slide-credit-risk-hits-2-year-high-after-china-devalues-curren

top comment

'It's as if millions of carry traders screamed out in terror...and were suddenly silenced.' Shocked

That's scaring indeed. Who knows when will it stop falling and what will lead to

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: smooth on August 12, 2015, 02:21:06 AM

Quote from: rebuilder on August 12, 2015, 02:13:05 AM

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

I don't think anyone believes that was their original business plan.

The original plan may have been to do something similar with sidechains or another undisclosed layer 2 system of their own design. It is even possible their original business plan was simply to be Red Hat of Linux, as gmaxwell claimed. That is, hire key developers in the space and provide value-added packaging and services.

None of that really matters if their business plan is something different now, which is entirely possible.

It is also possible that they did know about LN, as it is alleged to have been in development for quite a while.

Finally I think it is possible there simply was no real "business" plan, and the investors were in large part ideologically motivated or willing to take flyer handing money to a bunch of smart guys in a promising niche.

1. Scale Bitcoin
2. Huh

3. Profit

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: rebuilder on August 12, 2015, 02:13:05 AM

Quote from: Zangelbert Bingledack on August 12, 2015, 01:46:59 AM

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

I don't think anyone believes that was their original business plan.

The original plan may have been to do something similar with sidechains or another undisclosed layer 2 system of their own design. It is even possible their original business plan was simply to be Red Hat of Linux, as gmaxwell claimed. That is, hire key developers in the space and provide value-added packaging and services.

None of that really matters if their business plan is something different now, which is entirely possible.

It is also possible that they did know about LN, as it is alleged to have been in development for quite a while.

Finally I think it is possible there simply was no real "business" plan, and the investors were in large part ideologically motivated or willing to take flyer handing money to a bunch of smart guys in a promising niche.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: rebuilder on August 12, 2015, 02:13:05 AM

Quote from: Zangelbert Bingledack on August 12, 2015, 01:46:59 AM

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

This was indeed pointed out to him by me and several others.

lunarboy

hero member

Activity: 544

Merit: 500

China has done it again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33875061

"This is now the biggest two-day lowering of the yuan's rate against the dollar in more than two decades. "

also at ZH http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-11/yuan-collapses-stocks-slide-credit-risk-hits-2-year-high-after-china-devalues-curren

top comment

'It's as if millions of carry traders screamed out in terror...and were suddenly silenced.' Shocked

rebuilder

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Activity: 1615

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Zangelbert Bingledack on August 12, 2015, 01:46:59 AM

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

This needs to be read by every doomsayers here:

https://medium.com/@allenpiscitello/there-is-no-crisis-20b58e14b09c

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: brg444 on August 12, 2015, 02:00:15 AM

Quote from: smooth on August 12, 2015, 01:53:47 AM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 12, 2015, 01:36:58 AM

Quote from: smooth on August 12, 2015, 12:46:29 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

You are also aware that lightning is an open source project right? Nobody is forcing you to use it.

Being an open source project says next to nothing about lock-ins that are achieved by network effects on related services.

You mean like how Red Hat has a lock-in on Linux related services, or Oracle with Java?

Oh wait...maybe you meant like MyMonero.com? Cheesy

All three of those are valid examples. All three likely have weaker network effects than lightning nodes. MyMonero has
weakest network effects though. It doesn't have a thicket of related and dependent products to resist substitution.

That's all arguable certainly.

Seems the centralization/network effect of lightning nodes might not hold if Rusty gets his way...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gmkak/the_blockstream_business_plan/ctzz2jz

I question the incentive for a client to choose random nodes in that manner. Seems like it could work initially (as implemented by Rusty, etc.) but then break as clients get smarter.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: smooth on August 12, 2015, 01:53:47 AM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 12, 2015, 01:36:58 AM

Quote from: smooth on August 12, 2015, 12:46:29 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

You are also aware that lightning is an open source project right? Nobody is forcing you to use it.

Being an open source project says next to nothing about lock-ins that are achieved by network effects on related services.

You mean like how Red Hat has a lock-in on Linux related services, or Oracle with Java?

Oh wait...maybe you meant like MyMonero.com? Cheesy

All three of those are valid examples. All three likely have weaker network effects than lightning nodes. MyMonero has
weakest network effects though. It doesn't have a thicket of related and dependent products to resist substitution.

That's all arguable certainly.

Seems the centralization/network effect of lightning nodes might not hold if Rusty gets his way...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gmkak/the_blockstream_business_plan/ctzz2jz

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: Zangelbert Bingledack on August 12, 2015, 01:46:59 AM

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

What exactly are you referring to?

For once it seemed to me the more balanced and reasonable opinions prevailed..

smooth

legendary

Activity: 2968

Merit: 1198

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 12, 2015, 01:36:58 AM

Quote from: smooth on August 12, 2015, 12:46:29 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

You are also aware that lightning is an open source project right? Nobody is forcing you to use it.

Being an open source project says next to nothing about lock-ins that are achieved by network effects on related services.

You mean like how Red Hat has a lock-in on Linux related services, or Oracle with Java?

Oh wait...maybe you meant like MyMonero.com? Cheesy

All three of those are valid examples. All three likely have weaker network effects than lightning nodes. MyMonero has
weakest network effects though. It doesn't have a thicket of related and dependent products to resist substitution.

That's all arguable certainly.

Zangelbert Bingledack

legendary

Activity: 1036

Merit: 1000

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: brg444 on August 12, 2015, 01:28:23 AM

https://medium.com/@allenpiscitello

Quote

Why Votes Don’t Matter
Many of the proposals for the fork include a voting mechanism for miners to signal that they are upgraded. However, miners very easily can lie about their intentions. A miner may wish to trick other miners into mining the fork, then continue to mine the small block sizes in an attempt to have less competition by having miners waste efforts on a fork that will be orphaned. Votes will be extremely hard to trust.

We knew vote spoofing due to incompetence was a thing from BIP66, and predicted much more would arise (due to malice/strategy) in a contentious/gameable situation.

That quote does a good job of unpacking the immediately obvious implications.

XT is trying to lure Bitcoin into a dangerous zone of chaos, where its antifragility would be tested like never before.

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