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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 560. (Read 2032291 times)

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
January 10, 2015, 05:39:38 PM
Hey guys. What is being done (or what can be done) about competing with the likes of Visa as far as number of transactions it can accomodate and how quickly?

SIDECHAINS  Cheesy

Cypherdoc don't like sidechains. Are you poking him or is this your final answer? Cheesy

Cypherdoc does not understand tech.

Or the economics for that matter.  He gets things right occasionally in one of those 'every squirrel finds a nut sometimes' sort of ways.

 edit: typo.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
January 10, 2015, 05:30:35 PM
And yes: we still need to increase the max blocksize (or do other more fancy stuff) if we want to handle more transactions. But: use of this scheme greatly reduces a problem (namely the cost/disincentive to mine large blocks) that would only grow more relevant with increasing transaction rate / block sizes.

Absolutely. And looking some years ahead, this scheme is make or break when competing head-on with the likes of MC and VISA.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
January 10, 2015, 05:19:51 PM
fantastic summary

thanks, keep in mind, though: this is my somewhat simplified view. I might have missed something or even misunderstood.

to clarify.  it still means that we need to increase the block size concurrently with this proposal to accommodate the eventual full block construction that every miner maintaining a full node will need to perform after the IBLT has arrived and been verified.  it's just that the IBLT will allow a faster and smaller data "announcement" across the network that a new block has been found by the announcing miner.  if a receiving miner verifies the IBLT announcement, it can immediately start crunching the next block, which saves everyone time.

Yes.

It saves time and it should reduce orphans, thus also increase security a bit because less hashrate is lost to orphans.

And yes: we still need to increase the max blocksize (or do other more fancy stuff) if we want to handle more transactions. But: use of this scheme greatly reduces a problem (namely the cost/disincentive to mine large blocks) that would only grow more relevant with increasing transaction rate / block sizes.

And if I thought this through correctly back then it's something that can be done without requiring a fork of any kind by just a subset of collaborating miners. There is economic incentive to do this, but maybe it's not large enough at this point to overcome the effort to orchestrate, develop and deploy. There might also be other, maybe even simpler schemes that achieve the same thing. For all I know this (or something like it) could be in use already even without us knowing.
legendary
Activity: 1414
Merit: 1000
January 10, 2015, 04:55:02 PM
Hey guys. What is being done (or what can be done) about competing with the likes of Visa as far as number of transactions it can accomodate and how quickly?

SIDECHAINS  Cheesy

Cypherdoc don't like sidechains. Are you poking him or is this your final answer? Cheesy

Cypherdoc does not understand tech.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
January 10, 2015, 04:26:14 PM
Hey guys. What is being done (or what can be done) about competing with the likes of Visa as far as number of transactions it can accomodate and how quickly?

payment channels is the easiest best solution out there ... about 6 months away.

OT is next best, clumsy in comparison to payment channels but less bitcoin-centric and more versatile, any day we are repeatedly told ...
legendary
Activity: 2338
Merit: 2106
January 10, 2015, 04:19:32 PM
http://www.ericsson.com/industry-transformation/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2014/11/ict-and-the-future-of-financial-services.pdf


this is the thread where participants are able to comprehend text going beyond three sentences in a row. i throw in 44 pages of beauty. amazing. those guys are saying that banking did not evolve that far from its origins in ancient sumerian times and that it will face a major disruption due to ict. bitcoin mentioned.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 10, 2015, 04:03:19 PM
wouldn't this tend to decrease time between blocks, and would that be an issue?

no.  that's determined by the difficulty only.  the IBLT simply speeds the transmisssion "announcement"  across the network that a new block has been found and aligns the incentive across miners to include the complete set of unconfirmed tx's in their mempools into blocks.
full member
Activity: 660
Merit: 101
Colletrix - Bridging the Physical and Virtual Worl
January 10, 2015, 03:56:08 PM
wouldn't this tend to decrease time between blocks, and would that be an issue?
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 10, 2015, 03:14:10 PM
btw, thx for your contributions to the IBLT discussion over on Reddit.  insightful.  feel free to share them here to help us all understand better as we go forward.

do you mean this thread started 5 months ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2d7ofh/technical_discussion_of_gavins_o1_block/ ?

yep

not sure which parts you found insightful, but here's the gist about this proposed application of IBLT (invertible bloom lookup tables) from my point of view for anyone who wants a tldr on this:

fantastic summary
Quote

IBLTs (Invertible Bloom Lookup Tables) are a data structure of tremendous beauty. They allow synchronization of sets of key/value pairs using constant (pre-determined) size of the synchronization message. They work well if the differences are expected to be small, but can potentially fail completely if they are too large for the size chosen. Another nice feature is that in case of a one way master -> slave synchronization, there is only one synchronization message that can be used in identical form to synchronize an unlimited number of potentially different 'slave' sets. Essentially the synchronization method contains information about the complete master set, but in a lossy way such that it can only be retrieved if a large enough number of key/values of the set are already known by the slave.

The idea is to apply this to the problem of bitcoin block transmission. The assumption can be made that the set of transactions in a freshly found block is already known to a large extent by the other miners because transactions have already been broadcast and inclusion policies are fairly uniform or at least predictable. So an IBLT of a chosen size (the miner can choose the size) can be used to propagate the transactions of the block (master) to the other miners (slaves). Since the slaves can make a pretty good estimate of the set of transactions that might be in a newly found block by using some standard inclusion policy, the size of the IBLT can likely be chosen to be quite small.

One effect of this scheme is that this IBLT synchronization message would be the same size, no matter how many transactions are included in a block. This is in contrast to the current situation where the synchronization message is essentially the block itself, so its size depends greatly on the number and size of transactions included. It is clear that miners are incentivized to mine smaller blocks because that greatly increases the probability of winning a potential race in case another miner found a block at a similar time due to transmission and therefor block propagation delays in the network. Thus using this scheme would remove the incentive to mine small blocks by removing the cost of larger blocks. Gavin calculated this cost to be some non-negligible number.

A possible downside could be that non-standard inclusion policies (think eligius, for example) might necessitate a large IBLT und thus be disincetivised.

that's the price for LukeJr will have to be willing to pay for being a non-conformist
Quote
What this doesn't do: it doesn't magically solve any scaling issues. At most it reduces the overall bandwidth requirements by 50%. Miners still need to have enough bandwidth to receive all transactions that are being broadcast.


to clarify.  it still means that we need to increase the block size concurrently with this proposal to accommodate the eventual full block construction that every miner maintaining a full node will need to perform after the IBLT has arrived and been verified.  it's just that the IBLT will allow a faster and smaller data "announcement" across the network that a new block has been found by the announcing miner.  if a receiving miner verifies the IBLT announcement, it can immediately start crunching the next block, which saves everyone time.
newbie
Activity: 32
Merit: 0
January 10, 2015, 03:12:46 PM
Hey guys. What is being done (or what can be done) about competing with the likes of Visa as far as number of transactions it can accomodate and how quickly?

SIDECHAINS  Cheesy

Cypherdoc don't like sidechains. Are you poking him or is this your final answer? Cheesy
A little of both   Cheesy

Was scalability even addressed in the sidechains whitepaper?

Thats one of the main points, but its way above my pay grade, better let others hash out the good and bad.   Undecided
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
January 10, 2015, 03:05:45 PM
Hey guys. What is being done (or what can be done) about competing with the likes of Visa as far as number of transactions it can accomodate and how quickly?

SIDECHAINS  Cheesy

Cypherdoc don't like sidechains. Are you poking him or is this your final answer? Cheesy
A little of both   Cheesy

Was scalability even addressed in the sidechains whitepaper?
newbie
Activity: 32
Merit: 0
January 10, 2015, 03:01:26 PM
Hey guys. What is being done (or what can be done) about competing with the likes of Visa as far as number of transactions it can accomodate and how quickly?

SIDECHAINS  Cheesy

Cypherdoc don't like sidechains. Are you poking him or is this your final answer? Cheesy
A little of both   Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
January 10, 2015, 02:57:23 PM
Hey guys. What is being done (or what can be done) about competing with the likes of Visa as far as number of transactions it can accomodate and how quickly?

SIDECHAINS  Cheesy

Cypherdoc don't like sidechains. Are you poking him or is this your final answer? Cheesy
newbie
Activity: 32
Merit: 0
January 10, 2015, 02:55:52 PM
Hey guys. What is being done (or what can be done) about competing with the likes of Visa as far as number of transactions it can accomodate and how quickly?

SIDECHAINS  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
January 10, 2015, 02:54:04 PM
Hey guys. What is being done (or what can be done) about competing with the likes of Visa as far as number of transactions it can accomodate and how quickly?
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
January 10, 2015, 02:50:22 PM
btw, thx for your contributions to the IBLT discussion over on Reddit.  insightful.  feel free to share them here to help us all understand better as we go forward.

do you mean this thread started 5 months ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2d7ofh/technical_discussion_of_gavins_o1_block/ ?

yep

not sure which parts you found insightful, but here's the gist about this proposed application of IBLT (invertible bloom lookup tables) from my point of view for anyone who wants a tldr on this:

IBLTs (Invertible Bloom Lookup Tables) are a data structure of tremendous beauty. They allow synchronization of sets of key/value pairs using constant (pre-determined) size of the synchronization message. They work well if the differences are expected to be small, but can potentially fail completely if they are too large for the size chosen. Another nice feature is that in case of a one way master -> slave synchronization, there is only one synchronization message that can be used in identical form to synchronize an unlimited number of potentially different 'slave' sets. Essentially the synchronization method contains information about the complete master set, but in a lossy way such that it can only be retrieved if a large enough number of key/values of the set are already known by the slave.

The idea is to apply this to the problem of bitcoin block transmission. The assumption can be made that the set of transactions in a freshly found block is already known to a large extent by the other miners because transactions have already been broadcast and inclusion policies are fairly uniform or at least predictable. So an IBLT of a chosen size (the miner can choose the size) can be used to propagate the transactions of the block (master) to the other miners (slaves). Since the slaves can make a pretty good estimate of the set of transactions that might be in a newly found block by using some standard inclusion policy, the size of the IBLT can likely be chosen to be quite small.

One effect of this scheme is that this IBLT synchronization message would be the same size, no matter how many transactions are included in a block. This is in contrast to the current situation where the synchronization message is essentially the block itself, so its size depends greatly on the number and size of transactions included. It is clear that miners are incentivized to mine smaller blocks because that greatly increases the probability of winning a potential race in case another miner found a block at a similar time due to transmission and therefor block propagation delays in the network. Thus using this scheme would remove the incentive to mine small blocks by removing the cost of larger blocks. Gavin calculated this cost to be some non-negligible number.

A possible downside could be that non-standard inclusion policies (think eligius, for example) might necessitate a large IBLT und thus be disincetivised.

What this doesn't do: it doesn't magically solve any scaling issues. At most it reduces the overall bandwidth requirements by 50%. Miners still need to have enough bandwidth to receive all transactions that are being broadcast.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
January 10, 2015, 01:03:27 PM
btw, thx for your contributions to the IBLT discussion over on Reddit.  insightful.  feel free to share them here to help us all understand better as we go forward.

do you mean this thread started 5 months ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2d7ofh/technical_discussion_of_gavins_o1_block/ ?

yep
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
January 10, 2015, 12:37:52 PM
Let the people buy gold.

*adjusts monocle made from bitium*
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
January 10, 2015, 12:35:42 PM
btw, thx for your contributions to the IBLT discussion over on Reddit.  insightful.  feel free to share them here to help us all understand better as we go forward.

do you mean this thread started 5 months ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2d7ofh/technical_discussion_of_gavins_o1_block/ ?
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