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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 718. (Read 2032266 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 14, 2014, 01:41:43 PM
SC's are bad if implemented thru the SPVproof.  how many times do i have to say this before you hear it?

 Cheesy You're some special kind of stupid aren't you?

The basis for your argument is that sidechains enable the BTC asset to be seperated from the BTC blockchain. This, you suggest, breaks "BTC Sound Money principle".

Now would you explain to me how federated server model is not doing exactly that? What difference does it make that they use federated model other than less decentralization?

Sure, decentralization is important and that is why Blockstream propose to implement SPVproof to make the model more efficient. But what is stopping anyone, right now, to seperate the BTC asset from the BTC blockchain through the federated server model?

What are you gonna do to stop it and how does this not result exactly in your biggest concern?

they are not.  you yourself have said that SC's "need" to move from federated server model to a source code change b/c that will enable security and decentralization.  the differences are profound.

Of course they are. Every possible scheme implemented on a sidechain supported by SPV proof can be replicated on a federated server model.

Decentralization is merely an adoption incentive. As you've been persistent in saying, some people will not care about lesser decentralization if they find considerable utility or speculative value in the sidechain. Furthermore, as some people were quick to show me, federated server can be considerably trustable and efficient.

Security is relative then if you accept and trust the federated server because they can be considered more secure than MM sidechains.

backpedaling again?  you said several times earlier that MM would only apply to utility chains that enhance Bitcoins Sound Money principles.  now, you're trying to imply that all these Blockstream enabled speculative SC's WILL be MM'd so as to give Blockstream an excuse to develop them for profit since they are somehow now secure.  so which is it?

No, my point, which you are evidently too dense to understand, is that Blockstream will mostly not be building speculative SC's booted on top of malicious schemes. There are limitless possibilities of applications sidechains that can be built that are not speculative. This is what Blockstream will be doing.

You're acting as if any scammer off the street will be able to hire Blockstream to develop their scammy sidechains. Hopefully you don't really believe that. Blockstream will deal will large corporations that have a desire to decentralized certain infrastructure of their business so as to make them more efficient or create additional value.

What you fail to consider is that Blockstream will likely be responsible for only a minority of the sidechains that will be created

wrong.  the SPVproof is critical to SC's.  if it doesn't get implemented, Blockstream as a for profit fails.

Prove it. Explain to me how they can not adapt their service to a federated model when in fact they have considered it and suggested the federated model could be good enough if properly implemented.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 14, 2014, 01:31:05 PM
Blockstream is way more than this.  they include 40% of core devs in addition to 3 of the top committers.  they are in a position to influence all future decisions regarding upgrades to Bitcoin, and that includes blocking competition that could make SC's obsolete.

their incentive being to sell as many SC's to any willing buyer.  that is what a for-profit does.

Sidechain is better tech than what competition as to offer at the moment.

To be quite honest, I can hardly see how something could compete with the sidechain model the way it could be implemented right now.

Sidechains are a very natural extension to the Bitcoin blockchain. They are the most fitting application layer on top of Bitcoin's TCP/IP.



then by all means, implement it as a federated server model.  I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT.

just don't change the source code to favor a for-profit company called Blockstream.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 14, 2014, 01:29:08 PM
oh brother.  never mind the fact that by Blockstream changing the source code, all other competing entities like CP, Bitshares, Ethereum, and all altcoins get put at a competitive disadvantage.  which is one of the stated objectives to begin with if you are paying attention.  

you and several others have already stated in the course of arguments that Blockstream is a way for devs to get paid.  and you said they would deserve to make millions off Blockstream as it would somehow bring along value to Bitcoin itself.  i don't see it.  it's a conflicted model with a false core assumption:  that being that BTC units can be separated from its blockchain (MC) and still preserve the Sound Money function.

All the competing entities previously using a different scheme can turn to sidechains and offer the same services that Blockstream do. What's to stop Vitalik and the gang from creating Blockstream2?

if we can see ahead of time a conflict or a flawed assumption, which i certainly do in this case, we as a community should avoid adopting it. it's stupid to say, "lets just let them go ahead and make changes to the source and we'll let everyone scramble to adjust".  lot of ppl will get hurt in that scenario.
Quote

If it shows to be the more promising technology/implementation, why would they not use their employable skills to build on top of it?

the reason Blockstream went out and employed 40% of core devs and 3 of the top committers to Bitcoin was to eliminate this type of competition from the likes of Vitalik.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 14, 2014, 01:27:10 PM
Blockstream is way more than this.  they include 40% of core devs in addition to 3 of the top committers.  they are in a position to influence all future decisions regarding upgrades to Bitcoin, and that includes blocking competition that could make SC's obsolete.

their incentive being to sell as many SC's to any willing buyer.  that is what a for-profit does.

Sidechain is better tech than what competition as to offer at the moment.

To be quite honest, I can hardly see how something could compete with the sidechain model the way it could be implemented right now.

Sidechains are a very natural extension to the Bitcoin blockchain. They are the most fitting application layer on top of Bitcoin's TCP/IP.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 14, 2014, 01:24:02 PM
that would be true.

i don't have any problem with SC's being implemented thru federated servers as they don't involve changing source code.  but as soon as you do change source, as with SPVproofs, all sorts of unpredictable things start happening as i've outlined.

currently, when BTC gets "exchanged" for assets, those BTC just change hands and still exist on the MC and remain secure and can continue to circulate.  SC's introduce another dynamic completely.  BTC's get siphoned off MC to speculative SC's created by Blockstream for insecure, potentially dishonest entities.  it's conceivable these entities will be gvts as Austin has said.  in this case, BTC's essentially get converted into whatever asset the SC is offering.  this destroys Bitoin's Sound Money principles.  the key to this dynamic is the SPV proof.

 Roll Eyes

that's all you got to say on this?
the basis of my argument is that the BTC unit cannot be separated from its blockchain (mainchain) w/o breaking Bitcoin as Money. imo, sidechains allow this and if you read their whitepaper, their core assumption is that they they can be separated.

So which is it? Sidechains are bad or not? Because in reality, changing the source code has no impact on their existence. Implementing SPV proof through a change in the source code is merely an improved feature that allows for more decentralization of the sidechains.

SC's are bad if implemented thru the SPVproof.  how many times do i have to say this before you hear it?
in this case, BTC's essentially get converted into whatever asset the SC is offering.  this destroys Bitoin's Sound Money principles.  the key to this dynamic is the SPV proof.

That's simply not true. Again, The SPV proof is a feature of sidechains. Sidechains can exist without it. And so Gvts can create sidechains using the federated model RIGHT NOW.

Considering this, I suggest you sell all of your bitcoins as soon as possible because from you logic we can deduct that Bitcoin is broken because it natively enables sidechains which, by you own statement, "destroys" Bitcoin's Sound Money principles.



wrong.  the SPVproof is critical to SC's.  if it doesn't get implemented, Blockstream as a for profit fails.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 14, 2014, 01:22:04 PM

you have to be a Blockstream plant.  absolutely no other way to explain your behavior.  whatever...

we as a community should not even let the situation get that far by letting them alter the rules of Bitcoin by changing the protocol in such a disingenuous, conflicted way.  let Blockstream compete head to head with all the other for profit companies trying to make money off Bitcoin who don't rely on a source code change.

You are the only evidently dinsingenuous person in this whole debate.

What you fail to realise is that if somehow you stop Blockstream from implementing the SPVproof in the source code than they are simply going to adapt their model to the federated model. 

You blind grudge against Blockstream disables you from understanding that their proposition is for the greater good of the community. Their conclusion is that sidechains are possible NOW but are potentially much more secure and efficient through the implementation of the SPV proof.

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 14, 2014, 01:18:22 PM
oh brother.  never mind the fact that by Blockstream changing the source code, all other competing entities like CP, Bitshares, Ethereum, and all altcoins get put at a competitive disadvantage.  which is one of the stated objectives to begin with if you are paying attention. 

you and several others have already stated in the course of arguments that Blockstream is a way for devs to get paid.  and you said they would deserve to make millions off Blockstream as it would somehow bring along value to Bitcoin itself.  i don't see it.  it's a conflicted model with a false core assumption:  that being that BTC units can be separated from its blockchain (MC) and still preserve the Sound Money function.

All the competing entities previously using a different scheme can turn to sidechains and offer the same services that Blockstream do. What's to stop Vitalik and the gang from creating Blockstream2?

If it shows to be the more promising technology/implementation, why would they not use their employable skills to build on top of it?

As for your last comment :

Considering this, I suggest you sell all of your bitcoins as soon as possible because from you logic we can deduct that Bitcoin is broken because it natively enables sidechains which, by you own statement, "destroys" Bitcoin's Sound Money principles.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
November 14, 2014, 01:14:57 PM
good news for goldbugs!  looks who's backing their new currency with gold?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-13/isis-unveils-its-new-gold-backed-currency-remove-itself-oppressors-money-system

but i thought Bitcoin was their preferred currency?

Edit:

Post retracted until the sidechains stuff dies down a little. Will repost in 50 pages or so. Wink
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 14, 2014, 01:14:50 PM
that would be true.

i don't have any problem with SC's being implemented thru federated servers as they don't involve changing source code.  but as soon as you do change source, as with SPVproofs, all sorts of unpredictable things start happening as i've outlined.

currently, when BTC gets "exchanged" for assets, those BTC just change hands and still exist on the MC and remain secure and can continue to circulate.  SC's introduce another dynamic completely.  BTC's get siphoned off MC to speculative SC's created by Blockstream for insecure, potentially dishonest entities.  it's conceivable these entities will be gvts as Austin has said.  in this case, BTC's essentially get converted into whatever asset the SC is offering.  this destroys Bitoin's Sound Money principles.  the key to this dynamic is the SPV proof.

 Roll Eyes

the basis of my argument is that the BTC unit cannot be separated from its blockchain (mainchain) w/o breaking Bitcoin as Money. imo, sidechains allow this and if you read their whitepaper, their core assumption is that they they can be separated.

So which is it? Sidechains are bad or not? Because in reality, changing the source code has no impact on their existence. Implementing SPV proof through a change in the source code is merely an improved feature that allows for more decentralization of the sidechains.

SPVproof does not enable "unpredictable things" to happen. All of these things are possible through the federated model.  

scBTC that represent assets are also merely changing hands and can still return to the MC. I expect that a sidechain for decentralized asset exchange (stock market for example) to be effectively as secure as the BTC mainchain because they are in effect, a utility chain that will generate a considerable amount of transaction from which miners can pull revenue.

I'm truly sick of your malicious portrayal of the Blockstream developers.

in this case, BTC's essentially get converted into whatever asset the SC is offering.  this destroys Bitoin's Sound Money principles.  the key to this dynamic is the SPV proof.

That's simply not true. Again, The SPV proof is a feature of sidechains. Sidechains can exist without it. And so Gvts can create sidechains using the federated model RIGHT NOW.

Considering this, I suggest you sell all of your bitcoins as soon as possible because from you logic we can deduct that Bitcoin is broken because it natively enables sidechains which, by you own statement, "destroys" Bitcoin's Sound Money principles.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 14, 2014, 01:07:41 PM

Sidechains is a creation for the greater good of the ecosystem. Blockstream do not own sidechains.

They are simply a group of competent enough developers that have the skills to build on top of it.



Blockstream is way more than this.  they include 40% of core devs in addition to 3 of the top committers.  they are in a position to influence all future decisions regarding upgrades to Bitcoin, and that includes blocking competition that could make SC's obsolete.

their incentive being to sell as many SC's to any willing buyer.  that is what a for-profit does.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 14, 2014, 01:03:57 PM
btw, since everyone around here seems to not mind for-profits changing the source code to their own advantage, why don't we increase OP_return back up to 80 bytes, from 40 bytes, so that Counterparty can fit back in their tx proofs for their share issuance that they were so badly depending on, so as to further their profit model? Roll Eyes

I honestly don't know if sc is the right way to go or not. But I do know that the network runs on consensus. If it agrees to allow sc while denying the 80 bytes, then that is what the consensus has decided. It isn't something that can be argued or reasoned with.

the question then becomes, the consensus of who?

those who participate in this thread or those who participate in the dev email lists and IRC channels?  or the consensus of the community at large?

The people running the nodes, the miners, and the companies that are deciding to use a particular fork.

the consenus includes EVERYONE participating in Bitcoin today. 
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 14, 2014, 01:02:48 PM
we don't know.  but we do know that it will have to be Blockstreams mandate to make it so.  otherwise, they don't make money constructing SC's.

 Roll Eyes

This is not true at all.

As if Blockstream is guaranteeing to clients the success and adoption of their chains.... This is nonsense. Their service is to create decentralized infrastructure for whoever is willing to pay them. It is up to that client to generate enough interest and utility in their sidechain that users will be attracted to it.

you have to be a Blockstream plant.  absolutely no other way to explain your behavior.  whatever...

we as a community should not even let the situation get that far by letting them alter the rules of Bitcoin by changing the protocol in such a disingenuous, conflicted way.  let Blockstream compete head to head with all the other for profit companies trying to make money off Bitcoin who don't rely on a source code change.
legendary
Activity: 817
Merit: 1000
November 14, 2014, 01:02:44 PM
btw, since everyone around here seems to not mind for-profits changing the source code to their own advantage, why don't we increase OP_return back up to 80 bytes, from 40 bytes, so that Counterparty can fit back in their tx proofs for their share issuance that they were so badly depending on, so as to further their profit model? Roll Eyes

I honestly don't know if sc is the right way to go or not. But I do know that the network runs on consensus. If it agrees to allow sc while denying the 80 bytes, then that is what the consensus has decided. It isn't something that can be argued or reasoned with.

the question then becomes, the consensus of who?

those who participate in this thread or those who participate in the dev email lists and IRC channels?  or the consensus of the community at large?

The people running the nodes, the miners, and the companies that are deciding to use a particular fork.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 14, 2014, 01:01:53 PM
btw, since everyone around here seems to not mind for-profits changing the source code to their own advantage, why don't we increase OP_return back up to 80 bytes, from 40 bytes, so that Counterparty can fit back in their tx proofs for their share issuance that they were so badly depending on, so as to further their profit model? Roll Eyes

Stop saying this. This is pure FUD.

Sidechains is a creation for the greater good of the ecosystem. Blockstream do not own sidechains.

They are simply a group of competent enough developers that have the skills to build on top of it.

Did you ever think that Blockstream could have competitors? Who's to say another group of developers might not want to replicate their business model? What's to stop them?

Again, it is likely that SPVproof or not we are going to see sidechains pop up in the future that use the federated model.

What are you going to do to stop them? It seems to me they would also "break BTC sound money principle" as you say. Why are you not objecting over them?



legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 14, 2014, 01:00:18 PM
the question is, create value for who?  and at what cost? 

if the "stated" intentions of Blockstream is to create value for Bitcoin and not Blockstream, then they should restructure as a non-profit.  or create SC's as a public service.  b/c that's the other important point here:  imo, Bitcoin has evolved to a point where it has become a public good.  it is a form of Sound Money that cannot, in the slightest, be perceived to have any improprieties or self interested groups in control.  that is, if we want nations and ppl of all strata to buy in.   Blockstream for profit violates this.

Well you see this shows your clear lack of understanding about the proposition.

SC's are absolutely a public service. Blockstream do not have the monopoly of creating sidechains. Sidechains are lines of codes which, if implemented, creates an additional open source layer on top of which anyone can build anything.



oh brother.  never mind the fact that by Blockstream changing the source code, all other competing entities like CP, Bitshares, Ethereum, and all altcoins get put at a competitive disadvantage.  which is one of the stated objectives to begin with if you are paying attention. 

you and several others have already stated in the course of arguments that Blockstream is a way for devs to get paid.  and you said they would deserve to make millions off Blockstream as it would somehow bring along value to Bitcoin itself.  i don't see it.  it's a conflicted model with a false core assumption:  that being that BTC units can be separated from its blockchain (MC) and still preserve the Sound Money function.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 14, 2014, 12:55:54 PM
we don't know.  but we do know that it will have to be Blockstreams mandate to make it so.  otherwise, they don't make money constructing SC's.

 Roll Eyes

This is not true at all.

As if Blockstream is guaranteeing to clients the success and adoption of their chains.... This is nonsense. Their service is to create decentralized infrastructure for whoever is willing to pay them. It is up to that client to generate enough interest and utility in their sidechain that users will be attracted to it.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 14, 2014, 12:53:17 PM
the question is, create value for who?  and at what cost? 

if the "stated" intentions of Blockstream is to create value for Bitcoin and not Blockstream, then they should restructure as a non-profit.  or create SC's as a public service.  b/c that's the other important point here:  imo, Bitcoin has evolved to a point where it has become a public good.  it is a form of Sound Money that cannot, in the slightest, be perceived to have any improprieties or self interested groups in control.  that is, if we want nations and ppl of all strata to buy in.   Blockstream for profit violates this.

Well you see this shows your clear lack of understanding about the proposition.

SC's are absolutely a public service. Blockstream do not have the monopoly of creating sidechains. Sidechains are lines of codes which, if implemented, creates an additional open source layer on top of which anyone can build anything.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 14, 2014, 12:52:36 PM
who will mine these decentralized SC's?  seriously.  Bitcoin miners are only incentivized to mine for BTC as money.  we've already agreed they will only mine those utility chains that enhance that function of money, not speculative SC's who take advantage of the SPV proof to advertise themselves as "decentralized or more secure". 

Exactly right, which is why most "speculative" SC's will be irrelevant unless they can demonstrate a sound business model that is not speculative just for the sake of it.


i agree, they don't have to be speculative to siphon BTC away from its blockchain (MC).  but they still break Bitcoins Sound Money principle.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
November 14, 2014, 12:51:10 PM
SC's only work in theory if they can be confined to "utility" chains as brg444 has defined them, ie, SC's w/o an altcoin that just processes tx's with enhanced features like fast tx or anon.  but since these utility chains won't make money for their devs, and IF no other speculative SC's will be formed, then you don't need a Blockstream for profit would you? 

Absolutely not true. Plenty of corporate sidechains can be created that are not speculative and create a semi-controlled environment defined by the clients' use that uses the BTC currency as its fuel.

absolutely they can.  but that doesn't change the siphoning dynamic and destruction of Bitcoin as Sound Money argument i've made.  yeah, the NASDAQ will allow you to convert your BTC to penny stock shares if they want via SC's.  legitimate business, right?
i'm perfectly aware of that.  but centralized entities encourage usage of the SPVproof, as brg444 and the whitepaper have already suggested, as they are more secure (MM) and they are decentralized.  we've already seen this incentive live with the Truthcoin example.

What is this obsession you have with Truthcoin? They are an obvious scam that will never get any traction.

so you say, but they already have their first customer:  keystroke.  and they will get more.
think about it.  it's only realistic that utility chains can be MM'd.  that's b/c the data requirement and work involved would be too much to MM ALL SC's in existence which will be in the thousand/billions.  therefore, MM will be confined to perhaps 2 utility chains that make Bitcoin better as money, fast tx and anon debatedly.

all other speculative SC ledgers will be maintained by their owners.   owners who have paid Blockstream good money (USD's) to construct their SC. they will be less secure as they won't be mined by third party independent mining auditors ala Bitcoin miners.  the only way for these types of SC entities survive is by attracting BTC to their scBTC.  the more the better.  the more retention the better.  this take tx fees away from Bitcoin miners which is bad.  the Blockstream biz model depends on this siphoning of BTC -->scBTC for the survival of their clients.  otherwise they don't make money.

 Cheesy thousand/billions of sidechains, yea right. this makes no sense and is an obvious stretch of reality.

as much as you'd like it to be different. speculation is a niche. preservation of value is in the majority's interest.

for this reason, it is straight up disingenuous to suggest that speculative schemes will siphon most of the value out of BTC.  



oh brother, here come the diversions.  Roll Eyes

it's in Blockstream's interest to make sure there are thousands if not billions.  cuz for every one of them, they make money (USD's).
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
November 14, 2014, 12:49:34 PM
who will mine these decentralized SC's?  seriously.  Bitcoin miners are only incentivized to mine for BTC as money.  we've already agreed they will only mine those utility chains that enhance that function of money, not speculative SC's who take advantage of the SPV proof to advertise themselves as "decentralized or more secure". 

Exactly right, which is why most "speculative" SC's will be irrelevant unless they can demonstrate a sound business model that is not speculative just for the sake of it.
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