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Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 824. (Read 2032266 times)

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 27, 2014, 03:35:07 PM
brg444, do you agree with JR that a SC failure can occur taking scbtc with it and thus btc too?

taking scBTC sure. if by "thus btc too" you mean the bitcoins attached to it then yes I agree also that it is possible.

but taking Bitcoin down with it? I wouldn't go there

and why don't I see Maxwell warning us of that?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 27, 2014, 03:33:26 PM
brg444, do you agree with JR that a SC failure can occur taking scbtc with it and thus btc too?

taking scBTC sure. if by "thus btc too" you mean the bitcoins attached to it then yes I agree also that it is possible.

but taking Bitcoin down with it? I wouldn't go there
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 27, 2014, 03:31:27 PM
brg444, do you agree with JR that a SC failure can occur taking scbtc with it and thus btc too?

And if so why hasn't Maxwell warned us of this?
legendary
Activity: 2254
Merit: 1043
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 27, 2014, 03:27:06 PM
what specifically would have to happen to get you to move a significant number of your btc over to the sc?

once the sidechains technology has matured enough and has been vetted by different, independent, reviewers

much like Bitcoin, when it has been made clear that the *open-source* code of the sidechain is safe and sound then I see no reason to be concerned with sidechain failure.



would a stable or rising price for scbtc enter into that assessment?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 27, 2014, 03:24:16 PM
Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?
I don't interpret it that way.

Before you can get your BTC back, you've got to perform burn transaction on the sidechain.

So if the sidechain ceases to function entirely, you have no way to generate the SPV proof that lets you claim your BTC.

But does the paper state that you have to perform this burn to get back or is that your interpretation of what has to happen?

Reason I ask is that many people seem to believe they can get back no matter what.
Many believe the exchange will be 1:1 over time and the SC won't can't  be inflated.

Are the sidechains "rules" not set in stone at its creation?
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
October 27, 2014, 03:20:49 PM
Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?
I don't interpret it that way.

Before you can get your BTC back, you've got to perform burn transaction on the sidechain.

So if the sidechain ceases to function entirely, you have no way to generate the SPV proof that lets you claim your BTC.

But does the paper state that you have to perform this burn to get back or is that your interpretation of what has to happen?

Reason I ask is that many people seem to believe they can get back no matter what.
Many believe the exchange will be 1:1 over time and the SC won't can't  be inflated.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 27, 2014, 03:18:45 PM
what specifically would have to happen to get you to move a significant number of your btc over to the sc?

once the sidechains technology has matured enough and has been vetted by different, independent, reviewers

much like Bitcoin, when it has been made clear that the *open-source* code of the sidechain is safe and sound then I see no reason to be concerned with sidechain failure.

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
October 27, 2014, 03:16:40 PM
Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?

I have as long as one is careful to choose a well implemented and managed sidechain and one stays on the ball.

I personally would put only the value on sidechains that I could afford to lose.  This value would grow with time as the sidechains solution and the various implementations of it mature.

I would always only risk any value on a sidechain which could not fail in a way where someone else would end up with my BTC.  A failure mode would have to result in a total loss else I am utterly un-interested in playing.

My calculations are indeed very close to how I play Bitcoin itself.

I like your approach but with alts someone gets your Bitcoin, in effect the demand for Bitcoin is inherent in the trade and the Bitcoin network grows as a result scam or not.

With SC your approach is more conservative than with alts, I expect we'd see as many scam attempts with SC as we've seen with alts.

My question is should that feature be enabled at the protocol level when we have technology to do the same thing with Bitcoin on an application layer like OT?

Loved that Unix programming story earlier.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 27, 2014, 03:02:53 PM
Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?

I have as long as one is careful to choose a well implemented and managed sidechain and one stays on the ball.

I personally would put only the value on sidechains that I could afford to lose.  This value would grow with time as the sidechains solution and the various implementations of it mature.

I would always only risk any value on a sidechain which could not fail in a way where someone else would end up with my BTC.  A failure mode would have to result in a total loss else I am utterly un-interested in playing.

My calculations are indeed very close to how I play Bitcoin itself.



what specifically would have to happen to get you to move a significant number of your btc over to the sc?
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 27, 2014, 03:00:49 PM
Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?
I don't interpret it that way.

Before you can get your BTC back, you've got to perform burn transaction on the sidechain.

So if the sidechain ceases to function entirely, you have no way to generate the SPV proof that lets you claim your BTC.

But does the paper state that you have to perform this burn to get back or is that your interpretation of what has to happen?

Reason I ask is that many people seem to believe they can get back no matter what.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
October 27, 2014, 02:55:52 PM
Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?

I have as long as one is careful to choose a well implemented and managed sidechain and one stays on the ball.

I personally would put only the value on sidechains that I could afford to lose.  This value would grow with time as the sidechains solution and the various implementations of it mature.

I would always only risk any value on a sidechain which could not fail in a way where someone else would end up with my BTC.  A failure mode would have to result in a total loss else I am utterly un-interested in playing.

My calculations are indeed very close to how I play Bitcoin itself.

legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1000
October 27, 2014, 02:40:49 PM
What got me first into bitcoin was a talk by Rick falvinge from a 2012 bitcoin conference. He talked about the rise of the internet and the end of banking. Superb, funny and to the point.

Did you hear his talk at the 2011 bitcoin conference in Prague, too? It's worth a watch, although parts are similar to the 2012 London one.




Actually I am mistaken. It was that one. But I only watched it in december 2012 Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
October 27, 2014, 02:37:10 PM
Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?
I don't interpret it that way.

Before you can get your BTC back, you've got to perform burn transaction on the sidechain.

So if the sidechain ceases to function entirely, you have no way to generate the SPV proof that lets you claim your BTC.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
October 27, 2014, 02:31:43 PM
Who here has interpreted the SC paper to mean that you can get your BTC back from scBTC in the case of a SC failure?
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
October 27, 2014, 01:42:35 PM
What got me first into bitcoin was a talk by Rick falvinge from a 2012 bitcoin conference. He talked about the rise of the internet and the end of banking. Superb, funny and to the point.

Did you hear his talk at the 2011 bitcoin conference in Prague, too? It's worth a watch, although parts are similar to the 2012 London one.


legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1000
October 27, 2014, 01:38:12 PM
What got me first into bitcoin was a talk by Rick falvinge from a 2012 bitcoin conference. He talked about the rise of the internet and the end of banking. Superb, funny and to the point.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
October 27, 2014, 01:23:07 PM
I think the average user wouldn't care how it works, as long as it works. Only a handful of people understand the thing we nowadays call money either. Crypto must solve a real world problem to gain substantial use in everyday life. From my perspective, this premise is met.  It only takes some time (and perhaps a financial crisis or two) for the larger public to become interested.

This is how I see it. As an investor and monetary activist  Wink I obviously need to "understand Bitcoin". But for mass adoption this is not necessary. Bitcoin/ledger either works and serves as better money/memory, or it does not. If it does, it becomes the future and will be used by everyone (and everything I see suggests this is exactly what is happening). Most everyone will never understand anything more about bitcoin than they do about http - they will only care that it works, is safe, freeing and reliable. "Education" will happen on its own.


Indeed, but it *does* take that kernel of people who thoroughly understand it to bootstrap it to the point where the natural benefits can permeate to more people. That's what's happened faster than I assumed it would.

As Wences says, (paraphrasing) it's more amazing for bitcoin to have gone from nothing to where it is today, than to go from where it is today to 1-billion+ users.
full member
Activity: 233
Merit: 101
October 27, 2014, 11:45:50 AM
I think the average user wouldn't care how it works, as long as it works. Only a handful of people understand the thing we nowadays call money either. Crypto must solve a real world problem to gain substantial use in everyday life. From my perspective, this premise is met.  It only takes some time (and perhaps a financial crisis or two) for the larger public to become interested.

This is how I see it. As an investor and monetary activist  Wink I obviously need to "understand Bitcoin". But for mass adoption this is not necessary. Bitcoin/ledger either works and serves as better money/memory, or it does not. If it does, it becomes the future and will be used by everyone (and everything I see suggests this is exactly what is happening). Most everyone will never understand anything more about bitcoin than they do about http - they will only care that it works, is safe, freeing and reliable. "Education" will happen on its own.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 27, 2014, 02:14:36 AM
Here are some links to help deepen understanding of Bitcoin and its implications, updated from here:

Money as Memory

Wences Casares talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQTI1OFFFdw&t=2m49s
Polished video of the same: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP0jCjyrew8
Peter R on Money as Memory: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9247581
From the Fed's own mouth: http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/sr/sr218.pdf
AJ on Money as Memory: http://libertyhq.freeforums.org/fed-economist-predicts-bitcoin-will-end-the-fed-t938-20.html
AJ on What Bitcoin Is: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/t/31743.aspx
Peter R on spin-offs: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563972.300

Natural Order

I, Pencil video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYO3tOqDISE
I, Pencil essay: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/I,_Pencil
How Wolves Change Rivers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa5OBhXz-Q
The Obviousness of Anarchy: http://mises.org/journals/scholar/hasnas.pdf
The Depoliticization of Law: http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebsite/TIL.PDF
AJ on Why Anarchy Fails and Succeeds: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/t/8889.aspx
AJ on Emergent Order: http://archive.freecapitalists.org//forums/t/18619.aspx
Emergent Networks: http://greatestinstruments.net/the-rise-of-emergent-networks-part-2-of-2/
Decentralized Society and Bitcoin Contracts: http://prezi.com/vfdcr18qie2w/decentralized-society-and-bitcoin-contracts/
The Myth of Science as a Public Good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_PVI6V6o-4
Hayek, The Fatal Conceit (google it)

Panarchy

Balaji Srinivasan, Silicon Valley's Ultimate Exit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOubCHLXT6A&t=1m0s
http://athousandnations.com/2009/10/20/towards-youtopia-are-all-public-good-providers-earthbound/
http://www.panarchy.org/knott/bitcoin.html

Economics

Economics in One Lesson (google it)
Applying Economics to American History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-LJ3wZjD4I
Libertarian Gallop through American History: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRhtmcxDSIs&t=3m15s
and many more

Investing

rpietila's SSS: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/sss-a-sane-and-simple-bitcoin-savings-plan-345065
Social Role of investors:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1mb27q/bitcoins_vast_overvaluation_appears_caused_by/cc7i6y8
and
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678866.5
and many more

Smart Contracts

Nick Szabo: http://ojphi.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/548/469

General

Rumors of Bitcoin's Death Greatly Exaggerated: http://archive.freecapitalists.org/forums/p/32931/512864.aspx
ZB on the philosophy of bitcoin (summary): https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2450191

Future Applications

Mike Hearn's 2012 talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA
Decentralized prediction markets via spin-offs or sidechains: http://www.truthcoin.info/
much more here

Fantastic list, much appreciated
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