Author

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 909. (Read 2032266 times)

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
September 29, 2014, 05:01:31 PM
I see thanks, so you can buy shares with bitcoins then. When you sell do you get bitcoins back or fiat?

Only the "authorized participants" (APs) can (they can swap in both directions: bitcoins for shares or shares for bitcoins).  But as long as there's a few competing APs, that's all that's actually required to ensure that NAV tracks the underlying (because they're all competing for a small guaranteed arbitrage profit).  


Is there an official statement about this?

Yes, it's all written up in the SEC documents the Winklevoss's filed (or just google how ETFs work in general).  
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
September 29, 2014, 05:00:58 PM
Deleveraging, What Deleveraging? The 16th Geneva Report on the World Economy

http://www.voxeu.org/article/geneva-report-global-deleveraging

There is some dark humor opportunity here.
The US is called a success for its massive QE and rewarded with a strengthening dollar leading up to the UCB decision process of whether and how to delever or leverage up with massive QE of its own.

To me it looks like a head fake.  The US has them bamboozled.  
It is a way of extending others to their breaking point before the US breaks.  Some savvy global economic politics at play.  Yum yum intoxicating QE candywine for everyone.  Who will drink who under the table remains to be seen.
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
September 29, 2014, 04:59:13 PM
Circle may be a game changer.  You can sign-up on your phone from anywhere and purchase your first bitcoins with your credit card within minutes.  The fact that they use mandatory 2FA (via SMS by default) also makes me feel better about recommending this service to acquaintances.  Should COIN launch this winter, then the fiat <---> bitcoin gateway infrastructure will be ripe to support another wave of adoption.  

I still maintain the impact of COIN is being grossly underestimated. The vast majority of "investment dollars" do not sit on bank accounts linked to coinbase or credit card limits linked to circle.

Instead most funds sit in brokerage accounts. During the run where I made most of my purchases, my biggest obstacle was wiring funds from my Brokerage account to my Bank account, so then I could issue a coinbase purchase. Since I see bitcoin as a core asset to hold, this was completely backwards.

COIN will link brokerage accounts to bitcoin, there is a huge amount of funds there....

there is also a huge difference in that you do not actually own bitcoins but COIN shares.

sure some institutional investors might not care. but you are then only "invested" in the Bitcoin economy and not necessarily own an actual share it in. which is perfectly fine, but still....


(I have to say I might be wrong. Could you claim your share in COIN for its equivalent in BTC? I do not think so but maybe someone can confirm.)

I think the shares will be used to purchase BTC so it will roughly track the price of bitcoin. This is at the owners descretion.... so you may see cases where it does not track it. Simply put if its not making money people will not buy shares... but dividends should be offered to entice people to buy shares rather than bitcoin... thats how I kind of guess it works anyway on top of my head knowing how equities work. Because its backed by a regulated exchange, many people will simply hold the shares collecting dividends rather than bitcoin because you would get value on the way up (roughly) and collect interest. For me, personally I prefer to hold bitAssets once the pegs are known to work in bitshares as this will collect me more interest and I own it in a decentralized system rather than depend on a stock exchange susceptible to the pitfals of our modern economy... can happen overnight... its a tradeoff either way.

COIN will work just like GLD but using bitcoins as the underlying.  If you own COIN shares all it means is that the Winklevoss ETF is holding your BTC for you in trust.  If it's cheaper to purchase bitcoins from Bitstamp than the equivalent amount of shares from COIN, then one of the "authorized participants" will simultaneously purchase a "basket" of bitcoins from Bitstamp and short a "basket" of COIN shares on the NASDAQ (giving them a positive cash balance).  They will then deliver those bitcoins to the trust (COIN) in exchange for a basket's worth of newly created shares.  They will then use these shares to close their short position with a guaranteed profit.  

This is the arbitrage mechanism that ensures the NAV of the ETF tracks the underlying.

I see thanks, so you can buy shares with bitcoins then. When you sell do you get bitcoins back or fiat? Is there an official statement about this?
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
September 29, 2014, 04:56:27 PM
Circle may be a game changer.  You can sign-up on your phone from anywhere and purchase your first bitcoins with your credit card within minutes.  The fact that they use mandatory 2FA (via SMS by default) also makes me feel better about recommending this service to acquaintances.  Should COIN launch this winter, then the fiat <---> bitcoin gateway infrastructure will be ripe to support another wave of adoption.  

I still maintain the impact of COIN is being grossly underestimated. The vast majority of "investment dollars" do not sit on bank accounts linked to coinbase or credit card limits linked to circle.

Instead most funds sit in brokerage accounts. During the run where I made most of my purchases, my biggest obstacle was wiring funds from my Brokerage account to my Bank account, so then I could issue a coinbase purchase. Since I see bitcoin as a core asset to hold, this was completely backwards.

COIN will link brokerage accounts to bitcoin, there is a huge amount of funds there....

there is also a huge difference in that you do not actually own bitcoins but COIN shares.

sure some institutional investors might not care. but you are then only "invested" in the Bitcoin economy and not necessarily own an actual share it in. which is perfectly fine, but still....


(I have to say I might be wrong. Could you claim your share in COIN for its equivalent in BTC? I do not think so but maybe someone can confirm.)

I think the shares will be used to purchase BTC so it will roughly track the price of bitcoin. This is at the owners descretion.... so you may see cases where it does not track it. Simply put if its not making money people will not buy shares... but dividends should be offered to entice people to buy shares rather than bitcoin... thats how I kind of guess it works anyway on top of my head knowing how equities work. Because its backed by a regulated exchange, many people will simply hold the shares collecting dividends rather than bitcoin because you would get value on the way up (roughly) and collect interest. For me, personally I prefer to hold bitAssets once the pegs are known to work in bitshares as this will collect me more interest and I own it in a decentralized system rather than depend on a stock exchange susceptible to the pitfals of our modern economy... can happen overnight... its a tradeoff either way.

Some COIN supporters are of the belief that it will SET the price of bitcoin, in much the way that gold ETFs set the price of gold.
The significant differences between gold and bitcoin may run squarely counter to this belief.  Gold ETFs are useful because storage and transport of that commodity bear costs and risks higher than the ETF ownership, where the opposite is true of COIN.  I suspect that often it will influence and follow rather than lead.

There is a long thread on this:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2681929
I offered the OP and my chief interlocutor on that thread to do a debate on stage at one of the many Bitcoin conferences but couldn't persuade him to do so.

There will also be some opportunity for truly massive fiat manipulation of COIN due to its projected high liquidity.  In such cases it can be expected to lead price up or down as arbitraging will shift value in and out to the extent that it is trusted.

I suspect that the real time p2p bitcoin exchanges OTC, and localbitcoin and the others will have the highest prices in most cases.  As is said of gold, if you don't hold it, you don't own it.

How the hell would you arb COIN with bitcoin? Does it accept bitcoin for shares? If it doesn't then it cant be a leading indicator unless bitcoins are directly convertible to COINS. If COIN shares are used to buy bitcoins then it may be leading indicator as far as seeing volume come into the market, but getting back out would mean selling shares thru COINS and nothing to do with bitcoin, COIN back to fiat... and winklesvoss have to sell the bitcoins they bought at a loss or a premium depending price at the end of the trading day.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
September 29, 2014, 04:55:53 PM
Circle may be a game changer.  You can sign-up on your phone from anywhere and purchase your first bitcoins with your credit card within minutes.  The fact that they use mandatory 2FA (via SMS by default) also makes me feel better about recommending this service to acquaintances.  Should COIN launch this winter, then the fiat <---> bitcoin gateway infrastructure will be ripe to support another wave of adoption.  

I still maintain the impact of COIN is being grossly underestimated. The vast majority of "investment dollars" do not sit on bank accounts linked to coinbase or credit card limits linked to circle.

Instead most funds sit in brokerage accounts. During the run where I made most of my purchases, my biggest obstacle was wiring funds from my Brokerage account to my Bank account, so then I could issue a coinbase purchase. Since I see bitcoin as a core asset to hold, this was completely backwards.

COIN will link brokerage accounts to bitcoin, there is a huge amount of funds there....

there is also a huge difference in that you do not actually own bitcoins but COIN shares.

sure some institutional investors might not care. but you are then only "invested" in the Bitcoin economy and not necessarily own an actual share it in. which is perfectly fine, but still....


(I have to say I might be wrong. Could you claim your share in COIN for its equivalent in BTC? I do not think so but maybe someone can confirm.)

I think the shares will be used to purchase BTC so it will roughly track the price of bitcoin. This is at the owners descretion.... so you may see cases where it does not track it. Simply put if its not making money people will not buy shares... but dividends should be offered to entice people to buy shares rather than bitcoin... thats how I kind of guess it works anyway on top of my head knowing how equities work. Because its backed by a regulated exchange, many people will simply hold the shares collecting dividends rather than bitcoin because you would get value on the way up (roughly) and collect interest. For me, personally I prefer to hold bitAssets once the pegs are known to work in bitshares as this will collect me more interest and I own it in a decentralized system rather than depend on a stock exchange susceptible to the pitfals of our modern economy... can happen overnight... its a tradeoff either way.

COIN will work just like GLD but using bitcoins as the underlying.  If you own COIN shares all it means is that the Winklevoss ETF is holding your BTC for you in trust.  If it's cheaper to purchase bitcoins from Bitstamp than the equivalent amount of shares from COIN, then one of the "authorized participants" will simultaneously purchase a "basket" of bitcoins from Bitstamp and short a "basket" of COIN shares on the NASDAQ (giving them a positive cash balance).  They will then deliver those bitcoins to the trust (COIN) in exchange for a basket's worth of newly created shares.  They will then use these shares to close their short position with a guaranteed profit.  

This is the arbitrage mechanism that ensures the NAV of the ETF tracks the underlying.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
September 29, 2014, 04:53:06 PM
Circle may be a game changer.  You can sign-up on your phone from anywhere and purchase your first bitcoins with your credit card within minutes.  The fact that they use mandatory 2FA (via SMS by default) also makes me feel better about recommending this service to acquaintances.  Should COIN launch this winter, then the fiat <---> bitcoin gateway infrastructure will be ripe to support another wave of adoption.  

I still maintain the impact of COIN is being grossly underestimated. The vast majority of "investment dollars" do not sit on bank accounts linked to coinbase or credit card limits linked to circle.

Instead most funds sit in brokerage accounts. During the run where I made most of my purchases, my biggest obstacle was wiring funds from my Brokerage account to my Bank account, so then I could issue a coinbase purchase. Since I see bitcoin as a core asset to hold, this was completely backwards.

COIN will link brokerage accounts to bitcoin, there is a huge amount of funds there....

there is also a huge difference in that you do not actually own bitcoins but COIN shares.

sure some institutional investors might not care. but you are then only "invested" in the Bitcoin economy and not necessarily own an actual share it in. which is perfectly fine, but still....


(I have to say I might be wrong. Could you claim your share in COIN for its equivalent in BTC? I do not think so but maybe someone can confirm.)

I think the shares will be used to purchase BTC so it will roughly track the price of bitcoin. This is at the owners descretion.... so you may see cases where it does not track it. Simply put if its not making money people will not buy shares... but dividends should be offered to entice people to buy shares rather than bitcoin... thats how I kind of guess it works anyway on top of my head knowing how equities work. Because its backed by a regulated exchange, many people will simply hold the shares collecting dividends rather than bitcoin because you would get value on the way up (roughly) and collect interest. For me, personally I prefer to hold bitAssets once the pegs are known to work in bitshares as this will collect me more interest and I own it in a decentralized system rather than depend on a stock exchange susceptible to the pitfals of our modern economy... can happen overnight... its a tradeoff either way.

Some COIN supporters are of the belief that it will SET the price of bitcoin, in much the way that gold ETFs set the price of gold.
The significant differences between gold and bitcoin may run squarely counter to this belief.  Gold ETFs are useful because storage and transport of that commodity bear costs and risks higher than the ETF ownership, where the opposite is true of COIN.  I suspect that often it will influence and follow rather than lead.

There is a long thread on this:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2681929
I offered the OP and my chief interlocutor on that thread to do a debate on stage at one of the many Bitcoin conferences but couldn't persuade him to do so.

There will also be some opportunity for truly massive fiat manipulation of COIN due to its projected high liquidity.  In such cases it can be expected to lead price up or down as arbitraging will shift value in and out to the extent that it is trusted.

I suspect that the real time p2p bitcoin exchanges OTC, and localbitcoin and the others will have the highest prices in most cases.  As is said of gold, if you don't hold it, you don't own it.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 29, 2014, 04:45:21 PM
Deleveraging, What Deleveraging? The 16th Geneva Report on the World Economy


http://www.voxeu.org/article/geneva-report-global-deleveraging
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
September 29, 2014, 04:38:43 PM
Circle may be a game changer.  You can sign-up on your phone from anywhere and purchase your first bitcoins with your credit card within minutes.  The fact that they use mandatory 2FA (via SMS by default) also makes me feel better about recommending this service to acquaintances.  Should COIN launch this winter, then the fiat <---> bitcoin gateway infrastructure will be ripe to support another wave of adoption.  

I still maintain the impact of COIN is being grossly underestimated. The vast majority of "investment dollars" do not sit on bank accounts linked to coinbase or credit card limits linked to circle.

Instead most funds sit in brokerage accounts. During the run where I made most of my purchases, my biggest obstacle was wiring funds from my Brokerage account to my Bank account, so then I could issue a coinbase purchase. Since I see bitcoin as a core asset to hold, this was completely backwards.

COIN will link brokerage accounts to bitcoin, there is a huge amount of funds there....

there is also a huge difference in that you do not actually own bitcoins but COIN shares.

sure some institutional investors might not care. but you are then only "invested" in the Bitcoin economy and not necessarily own an actual share it in. which is perfectly fine, but still....


(I have to say I might be wrong. Could you claim your share in COIN for its equivalent in BTC? I do not think so but maybe someone can confirm.)

I think the shares will be used to purchase BTC so it will roughly track the price of bitcoin. This is at the owners descretion.... so you may see cases where it does not track it. Simply put if its not making money people will not buy shares... but dividends should be offered to entice people to buy shares rather than bitcoin... thats how I kind of guess it works anyway on top of my head knowing how equities work. Because its backed by a regulated exchange, many people will simply hold the shares collecting dividends rather than bitcoin because you would get value on the way up (roughly) and collect interest. For me, personally I prefer to hold bitAssets once the pegs are known to work in bitshares as this will collect me more interest and I own it in a decentralized system rather than depend on a stock exchange susceptible to the pitfals of our modern economy... can happen overnight... its a tradeoff either way.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
September 29, 2014, 04:24:15 PM
Circle may be a game changer.  You can sign-up on your phone from anywhere and purchase your first bitcoins with your credit card within minutes.  The fact that they use mandatory 2FA (via SMS by default) also makes me feel better about recommending this service to acquaintances.  Should COIN launch this winter, then the fiat <---> bitcoin gateway infrastructure will be ripe to support another wave of adoption.  

I still maintain the impact of COIN is being grossly underestimated. The vast majority of "investment dollars" do not sit on bank accounts linked to coinbase or credit card limits linked to circle.

Instead most funds sit in brokerage accounts. During the run where I made most of my purchases, my biggest obstacle was wiring funds from my Brokerage account to my Bank account, so then I could issue a coinbase purchase. Since I see bitcoin as a core asset to hold, this was completely backwards.

COIN will link brokerage accounts to bitcoin, there is a huge amount of funds there....

there is also a huge difference in that you do not actually own bitcoins but COIN shares.

sure some institutional investors might not care. but you are then only "invested" in the Bitcoin economy and not necessarily own an actual share it in. which is perfectly fine, but still....


(I have to say I might be wrong. Could you claim your share in COIN for its equivalent in BTC? I do not think so but maybe someone can confirm.)
legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1000
September 29, 2014, 04:04:28 PM
Circle may be a game changer.  You can sign-up on your phone from anywhere and purchase your first bitcoins with your credit card within minutes.  The fact that they use mandatory 2FA (via SMS by default) also makes me feel better about recommending this service to acquaintances.  Should COIN launch this winter, then the fiat <---> bitcoin gateway infrastructure will be ripe to support another wave of adoption.  

I still maintain the impact of COIN is being grossly underestimated. The vast majority of "investment dollars" do not sit on bank accounts linked to coinbase or credit card limits linked to circle.

Instead most funds sit in brokerage accounts. During the run where I made most of my purchases, my biggest obstacle was wiring funds from by Brokerage account to my Bank account, so then I could issue a coinbase purchase. Since I see bitcoin as a core asset to hold, this was completely backwards.

COIN will link brokerage accounts to bitcoin, there is a huge amount of funds there....

Is COIN winklevoss etf? Anything that has you pay via credit card for bitcoins can have charge-back issues?

Yes, COIN is the Winklevoss ETF.

For credit card purchases through Circle, it is Circle that bears the risk of charge-back issues. Once they've transferred BTC to you, it's yours. This is why Coinbase has so many verifications in place and other issues. It's not clear to me how circle is going to mitigate charge-back challenges. In the end they might be passed onto (honest) end customers.  
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
September 29, 2014, 03:52:05 PM
Circle may be a game changer.  You can sign-up on your phone from anywhere and purchase your first bitcoins with your credit card within minutes.  The fact that they use mandatory 2FA (via SMS by default) also makes me feel better about recommending this service to acquaintances.  Should COIN launch this winter, then the fiat <---> bitcoin gateway infrastructure will be ripe to support another wave of adoption.  

I still maintain the impact of COIN is being grossly underestimated. The vast majority of "investment dollars" do not sit on bank accounts linked to coinbase or credit card limits linked to circle.

Instead most funds sit in brokerage accounts. During the run where I made most of my purchases, my biggest obstacle was wiring funds from by Brokerage account to my Bank account, so then I could issue a coinbase purchase. Since I see bitcoin as a core asset to hold, this was completely backwards.

COIN will link brokerage accounts to bitcoin, there is a huge amount of funds there....

Is COIN winklevoss etf? Anything that has you pay via credit card for bitcoins can have charge-back issues?
sr. member
Activity: 379
Merit: 250
September 29, 2014, 03:29:16 PM
Circle may be a game changer.  You can sign-up on your phone from anywhere and purchase your first bitcoins with your credit card within minutes.  The fact that they use mandatory 2FA (via SMS by default) also makes me feel better about recommending this service to acquaintances.  Should COIN launch this winter, then the fiat <---> bitcoin gateway infrastructure will be ripe to support another wave of adoption.  

I still maintain the impact of COIN is being grossly underestimated. The vast majority of "investment dollars" do not sit on bank accounts linked to coinbase or credit card limits linked to circle.

Instead most funds sit in brokerage accounts. During the run where I made most of my purchases, my biggest obstacle was wiring funds from by Brokerage account to my Bank account, so then I could issue a coinbase purchase. Since I see bitcoin as a core asset to hold, this was completely backwards.

COIN will link brokerage accounts to bitcoin, there is a huge amount of funds there....

Yeah, COIN will open up Bitcoin to an ocean of fiat. NASDAQ has been putting some Bitcoin friendly articles on their website. I hope to see COIN open this year but it may take until 2015 maybe around Feb?
legendary
Activity: 1153
Merit: 1000
September 29, 2014, 03:02:33 PM
Circle may be a game changer.  You can sign-up on your phone from anywhere and purchase your first bitcoins with your credit card within minutes.  The fact that they use mandatory 2FA (via SMS by default) also makes me feel better about recommending this service to acquaintances.  Should COIN launch this winter, then the fiat <---> bitcoin gateway infrastructure will be ripe to support another wave of adoption.  

I still maintain the impact of COIN is being grossly underestimated. The vast majority of "investment dollars" do not sit on bank accounts linked to coinbase or credit card limits linked to circle.

Instead most funds sit in brokerage accounts. During the run where I made most of my purchases, my biggest obstacle was wiring funds from my Brokerage account to my Bank account, so then I could issue a coinbase purchase. Since I see bitcoin as a core asset to hold, this was completely backwards.

COIN will link brokerage accounts to bitcoin, there is a huge amount of funds there....
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 29, 2014, 02:57:13 PM
Wow, it's been years since I read this thread, so I picked a random page a month back or so -- all very serious, lots of graphs and some interesting discussion (although in hindsight, some pretty off whack predictions).  Then I skip forward to 'now' and it's people calling each other cocksuckers --unbelievable.

hehe. made me laugh.

it's actually a good sign, though.

You could almost use me as an indicator Wink

when the anti-cypherdoc tone reaches a feverish pitch, we must be close to a bottom. Just look here:  Warning: How many of you have been a victim of a short squeeze?

Think about it. Anyone who has conviction, be it bullish or bearish for the long term,  is going to look ridiculous for long periods of time when price goes against them. The traces are so long and deep in either direction sentiment has a chance to swing all the way to the opposite end of the spectrum.

The only way not to look foolish is to shut up and not say anything during the anti- move, which I'm not willing to do.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 29, 2014, 02:44:36 PM
i remember that SR event like it was yesterday. im sitting in the same seat as i was last year too. t'was amazing. took a gamble and made a sweet btc bankroll boost of +10% in an hr and then had the joy of watching the rocket take off. just another magical day in bitcoin trading. i wonder how many people truly sold (without buying back). poor schmucks.

Answer: alot

I  remember sitting at my piano when the news rolled across the feeds. The bearish case was so compelling; Bitcoin loses its biggest user! The price tanked like a bitch triggering all sorts of stops at 100, but promptly turned right around within hours and began the rocket launch. Believe me,  when people make snap decisions to sell like that under pressure, they don't buy back in quickly, if at all. 
full member
Activity: 232
Merit: 100
September 29, 2014, 02:32:57 PM
i remember that SR event like it was yesterday. im sitting in the same seat as i was last year too. t'was amazing. took a gamble and made a sweet btc bankroll boost of +10% in an hr and then had the joy of watching the rocket take off. just another magical day in bitcoin trading. i wonder how many people truly sold (without buying back). poor schmucks.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
September 29, 2014, 02:25:57 PM
Wow, it's been years since I read this thread, so I picked a random page a month back or so -- all very serious, lots of graphs and some interesting discussion (although in hindsight, some pretty off whack predictions).  Then I skip forward to 'now' and it's people calling each other cocksuckers --unbelievable.

hehe. made me laugh.

it's actually a good sign, though.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
September 29, 2014, 01:20:08 PM
Circle open access to easy Bitcoin is a big deal.

and if you believe in big fractals, percentages, and timing, now's not a bad time.

I just noticed that tomorrow is the anniversary of the capitulation bottom to $140 (gox) that started the next run up...

looks like it was 10/2/13, the date of the SR takedown.

whoever sold on that news missed out big time.  it was a huge, unintuitive reversal.
one more catalyst like that ought to do it.  Perhaps a plea deal and sale of remaining SR coins or announced sale of Gox coins.  If BFL was bigger their shutdown could have been it.  Although the moves of most manufactures into pre-order and cloud BS feels like that's bottoming out as well. 
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
September 29, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
USD/JPY continuing to rise:

legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
September 29, 2014, 12:34:40 PM
...

Bitcoin's killer app is hope.  What other technology/investment can give young people all over the world as much hope for a better future as bitcoin?



Indeed. I'd phrase it a little differently, and assert that bitcoin is fundamentally optimistic. It's optimistic to assume that people can get together, from the ground up, and bootstrap a completely new, completely free, completely transparent global financial system. It's optimistic to believe that humanity will see and feel its value, and embrace it of their own free will.

But I'm an optimist. I believe that technology improves lives, and that the long-run trend in human civilization is toward more efficient and more free systems. 

Plus, the pessimists generally don't show up in the history books.
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