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Topic: Good news; ECB 2012/10 report on virtual currencies - page 3. (Read 6864 times)

legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
BTW I'm very surprised by the objectivity of this report:

Quote
3.1.4 Security inci dents an d ne gative press
From time to time, Bitcoin is surrounded by controversy. Sometimes it is linked to its potential for
becoming a suitable monetary alternative for drug dealing and money laundering, as a result of the
high degree of anonymity.9 On other occasions, users have claimed to have suffered a substantial
theft of Bitcoins through a Trojan that gained access to their computer.10 The Electronic Frontier
Foundation, which is an organisation that seeks to defend freedom in the digital world, decided not
to accept donations in Bitcoins anymore. Among the reasons given, they considered that “Bitcoin
raises untested legal concerns related to securities law, the Stamp Payment Act, tax evasion,
consumer protection and money laundering, among others”.

However, practically identical problems can also occur when using cash, thus Bitcoin can be
considered to be another variety of cash, i.e. digital cash.
Cash can be used for drug dealing and
money laundering too; cash can also be stolen, not from a digital wallet, but from a physical one; and
cash can also be used for tax evasion purposes. The question is not so much related to the format of
money as such (physical or digital), but rather to the use people make of it. Nevertheless, if the use of
digital money in itself complicates investigations and law enforcement, special requirements may be
needed. Therefore, the real dimension of all these controversies still needs to be further analysed.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
hazek

I still don't think you point, while an important one, is clear....
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
Yes, this actually is a really good report.

hazek

[snip]This also means that since the only difference between bitcoins and dollars is that bitcoins' physical counterparts aren't legal tender that they admit dollars, euros and the rest of the fiat currencies are essentially virtual currencies.[/snip]

I don't follow.

bitcoins - virtual currency with physical counterparts (Casascius, bitbills, ect..)

euros - "electronic" currency with physical counterparts that are legal tender

Seems to me, there is only one difference between these two currencies and it's not that one is a virtual currency and the other isn't.

What is the difference between an electronic and a virtual currency...  Huh

NONE. That's my point, there is no difference. Their precious euros and dollars are just as virtual as our bitcoins, the only difference being that the physical counterparts to their virtual currency are legal tender.  Cheesy
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019


what will happen to that mental image when the "real economy" starts using "virtual money" instead of that "real economy money"?
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
Yes, this actually is a really good report.

hazek

[snip]This also means that since the only difference between bitcoins and dollars is that bitcoins' physical counterparts aren't legal tender that they admit dollars, euros and the rest of the fiat currencies are essentially virtual currencies.[/snip]

I don't follow.

bitcoins - virtual currency with physical counterparts (Casascius, bitbills, ect..)

euros - "electronic" currency with physical counterparts that are legal tender

Seems to me, there is only one difference between these two currencies and it's not that one is a virtual currency and the other isn't.

What is the difference between an electronic and a virtual currency...  Huh

electronic money is like western union.  You take fiat from you bank or credit card and WU transfers it to another location electorniclly and the receiptent collect fiat  (goven't backed legal tender)

Bitcoin does the same think but it is not backed by fiat or gold and not legal tender in essense "Virtual".  It's value is preceived by the user.
sr. member
Activity: 386
Merit: 250
You all realize that now EU has moved out on this the US will take ten years to follow suit  Cheesy

This is very good news.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
Thanks molecular

Hadn't gotten that far yet.

LOVE this paper.

donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
hazek

[snip]This also means that since the only difference between bitcoins and dollars is that bitcoins' physical counterparts aren't legal tender that they admit dollars, euros and the rest of the fiat currencies are essentially virtual currencies.[/snip]

I don't follow.

bitcoins - virtual currency with physical counterparts (Casascius, bitbills, ect..)

euros - "electronic" currency with physical counterparts that are legal tender

Seems to me, there is only one difference between these two currencies and it's not that one is a virtual currency and the other isn't.


no one is legal tender and the other is not, yes?

yes, or in other words:

Quote
In electronic money schemes the link between the electronic money and the traditional money
format is preserved and has a legal foundation,[...]

is this the same as saying: electronic money has a fixed exchange rate to fiat currency while virtual currency floats?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1000
Enabling the maximal migration
Yes, this actually is a really good report.

hazek

[snip]This also means that since the only difference between bitcoins and dollars is that bitcoins' physical counterparts aren't legal tender that they admit dollars, euros and the rest of the fiat currencies are essentially virtual currencies.[/snip]

I don't follow.

bitcoins - virtual currency with physical counterparts (Casascius, bitbills, ect..)

euros - "electronic" currency with physical counterparts that are legal tender

Seems to me, there is only one difference between these two currencies and it's not that one is a virtual currency and the other isn't.

What is the difference between an electronic and a virtual currency...  Huh
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
As much as it can be frustrating to deal with bureaucracy in the EU, Canada, etc. - it is refreshing to see disinterested, non-corrupted bureaucrats do their jobs well, and provide service to the paying public. This study is a good example.

True. Still, I'm only 1/3rd through and not into the bitcoin part yet.

I'm still suspecting an "agenda" and my initial enthusiasm got dampened a bit:

Quote
These schemes can have positive aspects if they
contribute to financial innovation and provide additional payment alternatives to consumers.
However, it is clear that they can also pose risks for their users, especially in view of the current
lack of regulation.
In essence, virtual currencies act as a medium of exchange and as a unit of account within a
particular virtual community. The question then arises as to whether they also fulfil the “store of
value” function in terms of being reliable and safe
, or whether they pose a risk not only for their
users but also the wider economy.

Incidentally that question arises also with the EUR the ECB is currently issuing like mad Wink

BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
hazek

[snip]This also means that since the only difference between bitcoins and dollars is that bitcoins' physical counterparts aren't legal tender that they admit dollars, euros and the rest of the fiat currencies are essentially virtual currencies.[/snip]

I don't follow.

bitcoins - virtual currency with physical counterparts (Casascius, bitbills, ect..)

euros - "electronic" currency with physical counterparts that are legal tender

Seems to me, there is only one difference between these two currencies and it's not that one is a virtual currency and the other isn't.


no one is legal tender and the other is not, yes?
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
Quote from: ecb, page 10
Virtual currencies resemble money and necessarily come with their own dedicated retail payment
systems; these two aspects are covered by the term “virtual currency scheme”. Virtual currency
schemes are relevant in several areas of the financial system and are therefore of interest to central
banks. Virtual currency schemes have been subject to increased press coverage, even being featured
in respectable media publications. The ECB has been contacted a number of times in recent months
by academics, journalists and concerned citizens, who want to know its view or want to warn the
institution about potential problems with virtual currency schemes. In this context, it was considered
advisable to strive for a common understanding and, thereafter, to formulate a coordinated response.
This explains the ECB’s interest in carrying out a more detailed analysis, especially in view of its
role as a catalyst for payment systems and its oversight role. The present report is the result of this
analysis. It is a first attempt to provide the basis for a discussion on virtual currency schemes.
(emphasis mine.)

This sounds pretty prudent and promising to me.

and later:

Quote
Money is a social institution: a tool created and marked by society’s evolution, which has exhibited
a great capacity to evolve and adapt to the character of the times. It is not surprising that money has
been affected by recent technological developments and especially by the widespread use of the
internet.

interesting, no FUD so far or misinformation or misunderstandings, just facts I can agree with... this is weird, I'll keep reading.


Can't agree more, strange...
As much as it can be frustrating to deal with bureaucracy in the EU, Canada, etc. - it is refreshing to see disinterested, non-corrupted bureaucrats do their jobs well, and provide service to the paying public. This study is a good example.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
We could use this to help define our terms as we continue to refign how we communicate what bitcoin is to a non-users.

I've hear people refer to bitcoin as electronic money, which according to this paper would refer to a unit of account that has a physical counterpart with legal tender status, ie western union.


Virtual currency schemes differ from electronic money schemes insofar as the currency being used as the unit of account has no physical counterpart with legal tender status.

somewhere else they explain another difference:

Quote from: ecb page 17
In electronic money schemes the link between the electronic money and the traditional money
format is preserved and has a legal foundation
, as the stored funds are expressed in the same unit
of account (e.g. US dollars, euro, etc.). In virtual currency schemes the unit of account is changed
into a virtual one (e.g. Linden Dollars, Bitcoins).
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
hazek

[snip]This also means that since the only difference between bitcoins and dollars is that bitcoins' physical counterparts aren't legal tender that they admit dollars, euros and the rest of the fiat currencies are essentially virtual currencies.[/snip]

I don't follow.

bitcoins - virtual currency with physical counterparts (Casascius, bitbills, ect..)

euros - "electronic" currency with physical counterparts that are legal tender

Seems to me, there is only one difference between these two currencies and it's not that one is a virtual currency and the other isn't.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
hazek

[snip]This also means that since the only difference between bitcoins and dollars is that bitcoins' physical counterparts aren't legal tender that they admit dollars, euros and the rest of the fiat currencies are essentially virtual currencies.[/snip]

I don't follow.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 540
Seriously this is very good.

And very very good news.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
We could use this to help define our terms as we continue to refign how we communicate what bitcoin is to a non-users.

I've hear people refer to bitcoin as electronic money, which according to this paper would refer to a unit of account that has a physical counterpart with legal tender status, ie western union.


Virtual currency schemes differ from electronic money schemes insofar as the currency being used as the unit of account has no physical counterpart with legal tender status.

This also means that since the only difference between bitcoins and dollars is that bitcoins' physical counterparts aren't legal tender that they admit dollars, euros and the rest of the fiat currencies are essentially virtual currencies.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
We could use this to help define our terms as we continue to refign how we communicate what bitcoin is to a non-users.

I've hear people refer to bitcoin as electronic money, which according to this paper would refer to a unit of account that has a physical counterpart with legal tender status, ie western union.


Virtual currency schemes differ from electronic money schemes insofar as the currency being used as the unit of account has no physical counterpart with legal tender status.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1004
Firstbits: 1pirata
Quote from: ecb, page 10
Virtual currencies resemble money and necessarily come with their own dedicated retail payment
systems; these two aspects are covered by the term “virtual currency scheme”. Virtual currency
schemes are relevant in several areas of the financial system and are therefore of interest to central
banks. Virtual currency schemes have been subject to increased press coverage, even being featured
in respectable media publications. The ECB has been contacted a number of times in recent months
by academics, journalists and concerned citizens, who want to know its view or want to warn the
institution about potential problems with virtual currency schemes. In this context, it was considered
advisable to strive for a common understanding and, thereafter, to formulate a coordinated response.
This explains the ECB’s interest in carrying out a more detailed analysis, especially in view of its
role as a catalyst for payment systems and its oversight role. The present report is the result of this
analysis. It is a first attempt to provide the basis for a discussion on virtual currency schemes.
(emphasis mine.)

This sounds pretty prudent and promising to me.

and later:

Quote
Money is a social institution: a tool created and marked by society’s evolution, which has exhibited
a great capacity to evolve and adapt to the character of the times. It is not surprising that money has
been affected by recent technological developments and especially by the widespread use of the
internet.

interesting, no FUD so far or misinformation or misunderstandings, just facts I can agree with... this is weird, I'll keep reading.


Can't agree more, strange...
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
Quote from: ecb, page 10
Virtual currencies resemble money and necessarily come with their own dedicated retail payment
systems; these two aspects are covered by the term “virtual currency scheme”. Virtual currency
schemes are relevant in several areas of the financial system and are therefore of interest to central
banks. Virtual currency schemes have been subject to increased press coverage, even being featured
in respectable media publications. The ECB has been contacted a number of times in recent months
by academics, journalists and concerned citizens, who want to know its view or want to warn the
institution about potential problems with virtual currency schemes. In this context, it was considered
advisable to strive for a common understanding and, thereafter, to formulate a coordinated response.
This explains the ECB’s interest in carrying out a more detailed analysis, especially in view of its
role as a catalyst for payment systems and its oversight role. The present report is the result of this
analysis. It is a first attempt to provide the basis for a discussion on virtual currency schemes.
(emphasis mine.)

This sounds pretty prudent and promising to me.

and later:

Quote
Money is a social institution: a tool created and marked by society’s evolution, which has exhibited
a great capacity to evolve and adapt to the character of the times. It is not surprising that money has
been affected by recent technological developments and especially by the widespread use of the
internet.

interesting, no FUD so far or misinformation or misunderstandings, just facts I can agree with... this is weird, I'll keep reading.
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