Topic: Goodbye Bitcoin - page 5. (Read 6081 times)
If its a failed experiment, what's the reason that we get regular attention from common user. If its a failure, it could have change a lot and one thing confirms how bitcoin is a success experiment is through the adoption taking place in different communities and public.
Thats what happen when a resource is limited, someone has to go out for somebody new to start using Bitcoin.
IMO the best solution to allow userbase to grow would be trying to get consensus (bundle SegWit with BU blocksize emergent consensus) - because it is obvious you cant do just one and not be controversional with the other side.
IMO the best solution to allow userbase to grow would be trying to get consensus (bundle SegWit with BU blocksize emergent consensus) - because it is obvious you cant do just one and not be controversional with the other side.
A lot of us feel the same way, because we hoped that the consensus changes will not be such a big deal... but it turns out that it might become a
big deal when we need it the most. We have some people "manipulating" the system to take advantage for their hidden agendas, and when they
do not get what they want, they use "dirty" tactics to force people to bend to their needs. Bitcoin will not be a "A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash
System" if it cannot scale like Satoshi intended it.
big deal when we need it the most. We have some people "manipulating" the system to take advantage for their hidden agendas, and when they
do not get what they want, they use "dirty" tactics to force people to bend to their needs. Bitcoin will not be a "A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash
System" if it cannot scale like Satoshi intended it.
To the OP, you should simplify your points of contention.
The fees are still less than fiat alternatives, but I'll admit that I don't know what they are for other crypto currencies - Litecoin and such.
If you think alternatives offer better options, which alternative coins have the best opportunity for replacing Bitcoin? Litecoin, Ethereum, Doge (hahaha)?
It's not Bitcoin that would fail, it's the people using Bitcoin - from Developers to "Newbies" - that would fail Bitcoin by not finding ways to solve the transaction speed and fee issues.
The echochamber you speak of isn't coming from the exchange, it's coming from this forum. And it's not a fair assessment of whether the developer team are talking past each other or not. Do you have insight on this?
The fees are still less than fiat alternatives, but I'll admit that I don't know what they are for other crypto currencies - Litecoin and such.
If you think alternatives offer better options, which alternative coins have the best opportunity for replacing Bitcoin? Litecoin, Ethereum, Doge (hahaha)?
It's not Bitcoin that would fail, it's the people using Bitcoin - from Developers to "Newbies" - that would fail Bitcoin by not finding ways to solve the transaction speed and fee issues.
The echochamber you speak of isn't coming from the exchange, it's coming from this forum. And it's not a fair assessment of whether the developer team are talking past each other or not. Do you have insight on this?
so the transaction fee is high? in case a few people hadn't noticed the bitcoin price is 4-5 times higher than it was a couple of years ago. that's a small factor right there.
overall i agree with alot of the points but they're also very nice problems to have. i'll be curious to see what happens if and when it becomes clear that a big number of people really are falling away because it's no longer usable for them.
i hope the people steering the ship are big enough to compromise on something that moves things forward because everyone else won't be waiting forever.
overall i agree with alot of the points but they're also very nice problems to have. i'll be curious to see what happens if and when it becomes clear that a big number of people really are falling away because it's no longer usable for them.
i hope the people steering the ship are big enough to compromise on something that moves things forward because everyone else won't be waiting forever.
@RealBitcoin: I agree with you that the current stalemate (Segwit/BU) will do (possible severe) harm to Bitcoin if it continues more than a few months. But I think you miss also some valid points.
Holliday has already mentioned a couple of points: It's not that easy to design a blockchain with cheap transactions, limited supply, decentralization and high security. And the altcoins you mention don't have the problem of the full blocks. It's easy to have cheap transaction if you're only a speculation tool without real-world use and - above all - without really real-world resource use (hashrate of most coins is ridiculous).
Where you're right is that with 1 MB mid-term Bitcoin won't go anywhere. It will be eternally a speculation tool.
But I'm a bit more optimistic than you. There are forces in Bitcoin who want to break the stalemate. They just aren't that visible in this forum, as internet forums mostly emphasize extreme opinions. A good compromise could be a Segwit enabling in trade of a yearly or bi-yearly block size increase hard-coded into the protocol - an agreement the miners that block Segwit could agree to (actually that has already been tried with the Hongkong Agreement last year, perhaps a new initiative can have more success).
I think if there is no agreement short-term, at the end market forces will drive Bitcoin in the right direction again. We could see a crash and then miners magically agreeing to Segwit if an altcoin is in danger to take significant market share away. The question is if Bitcoin will have lost then its role as the universally accepted leading crypto-coin.
Holliday has already mentioned a couple of points: It's not that easy to design a blockchain with cheap transactions, limited supply, decentralization and high security. And the altcoins you mention don't have the problem of the full blocks. It's easy to have cheap transaction if you're only a speculation tool without real-world use and - above all - without really real-world resource use (hashrate of most coins is ridiculous).
Where you're right is that with 1 MB mid-term Bitcoin won't go anywhere. It will be eternally a speculation tool.
But I'm a bit more optimistic than you. There are forces in Bitcoin who want to break the stalemate. They just aren't that visible in this forum, as internet forums mostly emphasize extreme opinions. A good compromise could be a Segwit enabling in trade of a yearly or bi-yearly block size increase hard-coded into the protocol - an agreement the miners that block Segwit could agree to (actually that has already been tried with the Hongkong Agreement last year, perhaps a new initiative can have more success).
I think if there is no agreement short-term, at the end market forces will drive Bitcoin in the right direction again. We could see a crash and then miners magically agreeing to Segwit if an altcoin is in danger to take significant market share away. The question is if Bitcoin will have lost then its role as the universally accepted leading crypto-coin.
i don't like how the starter is confronting bitcoin, which has a very large users base with an altcoin that have no usage and so have a lower amount of transaction and fee, to me it make no sense, if those altcoin would have the same user base they would carry the same problem if not worse
same for me, i don't know why all the hating on the transaction time, it's still on average very fast for me, the fee are not that high compared to the good old days, 20k+ satoshi look reasonable for me
you choose to make a fast transaction no one force you....
also 10k satoshi get confirmed in less than 6 hours.
I think is a good scenario see fees growth because it means "the value" for storage a tx is increase = more interest in this action.
also 10k satoshi get confirmed in less than 6 hours.
I think is a good scenario see fees growth because it means "the value" for storage a tx is increase = more interest in this action.
same for me, i don't know why all the hating on the transaction time, it's still on average very fast for me, the fee are not that high compared to the good old days, 20k+ satoshi look reasonable for me
So the OP are leaving because a fee of 0,7$ ? Yeah, i know that the Tx without a decent fee will take forever but 0,7$? are u still fauceting? becaucse it makes no sense for me, even a bank wire will take more than 0,7$.. We just ned to solve the block size issue and reduce the spam Tx. That's it.
But well, goodbye OP. Bitcoin will wait for your return!
But well, goodbye OP. Bitcoin will wait for your return!
Too much in fees if you want to send a small amount now. It is truly ridiculous the way it is progressing.
Just as bad as credit card companies charge merchants for every transaction of $2.00 as far as I know they charged three years ago so that amount might have increased from that time.
If you want to send $0.34 in bitcoin the transactions fees are the same to send that amount.
That isn't right.
What would Satoshi have to say about that?
Just as bad as credit card companies charge merchants for every transaction of $2.00 as far as I know they charged three years ago so that amount might have increased from that time.
If you want to send $0.34 in bitcoin the transactions fees are the same to send that amount.
That isn't right.
What would Satoshi have to say about that?
It's still a lot cheaper than sending a Western Union or Money Gram or even buying a Cashier's Money Order.
wait,bitcoin is over just because someone has paid > 70.000 in transaction fees?
Although I disagree with his conclusion that it's over, he does have a point: transactions are slow and/or expensive. Most of the time now tens of thousands of unconfirmed transactions are waiting to be processed. Bitcoin is currently limited by it's maximum number of transactions, and it can't grow further until this is resolved.I do most of my transactions off-chain, collecting them on other sites until it's worth making a transaction. I can imagine Bitcoin can grow much further, but currently every new user that makes a transaction means someone else can't make a transaction at that moment.
This should be solved soon. I don't care if it's bigger blocks or SegWit, or even better a combination of the two. Something has to be done to give Bitcoin the space to grow.
Most people call me troll or shill, just for pointing out legitimate criticisms? What you can't criticize Bitcoin now? Is Bitcoin just an echochamber of fanatics and fanboys? Because without criticism, you can't solve issues.
Legitimate criticisms? I disagree. It looks more like you were an early adopter that was spoiled because he was able to easily append the block chain simply because there was no competition at the time (Bitcoin was still untested and unknown) and security came from the block subsidies (which don't last forever you know). As soon as there is some healthy competition for confirmations, the spoiled brats cry and moan and pull a whiny heam-quit.
The block chain requires real resources to maintain and secure. Without it, Bitcoin doesn't exist.
Yet, you want your free, instant transactions? I guess you want them to remain censorship-proof as well?
Well, guess what, real life comes with trade-offs. Security and convenience are typically at opposite ends of the scale. Move further towards one, and you get further away from the other.
We can't have a block subsidy that halves every 4 years, free transactions, and a secure block chain all at the same time! So, it sounds like you are asking for permanent inflation, or an insecure block chain. No thanks!
We must transition from block subsides to transaction fees in order for Bitcoin to continue to exist. It's that simple.
I promise that there are plenty of people in the world willing to pay well (and wait) for censorship-proof transactions, so all you fast, free confirmation lovers out there had better wake up and smell the reality.
-
To the person reading this thread who thinks they might also make a "Farewell Bitcoin" post in the near future... Don't. You aren't that important. Mike Heam wasn't that important and he did far more than you.
you choose to make a fast transaction no one force you....
also 10k satoshi get confirmed in less than 6 hours.
I think is a good scenario see fees growth because it means "the value" for storage a tx is increase = more interest in this action.
also 10k satoshi get confirmed in less than 6 hours.
I think is a good scenario see fees growth because it means "the value" for storage a tx is increase = more interest in this action.
SOMEONE SHOULD HELP ME OUT, I STOP RECEIVING AUTHORIZATION MAIL FROM BLOCKCHAIN... WHAT CAN I DO PLS?
First thing - turn off your caps lock.
Ahh, I don't know how to say this, but I have to say the truth. Bitcoin is over. The 8 year experiment that was meant to change the world for the better and to emancipate the human population, has turned into an echochamber of trolls who yell at eachother, while the system is slowly collapsing, and being replaced by other altcoins.
I am in Bitcoin since 2013-2014, I have seen all of it, and mostly the inability of it to evolve. It wasn't as bad until 2015, and throughout 2016 I was silent, but now it's 2017, and things are getting worse. Only a fool will deny that.
If this continues, then Bitcoin will be over. I don't want that, since I have obviously invested a lot of time and effort into this. But I fear that there is no other option now, as I am seeing the inability of the community to resolve issues.
I have sent a transaction 2 days ago, and guess how much fee I had to pay? 70,000 satoshi.
Yes 70,000 satoshi for an average size transaction, with 1 input and 1 output, in order to be confirmed within 2 blocks.
I remember the time when back in 2014 I used to work 3 hours doing stupid faucets for 70,000 satoshi, and now it's all gone in 1 transaction?
Now I have heard the dumbasses saying that we can't have faster than 10 min confirm time because it will create orphans (strangely other cryptocoins don't have this issue). So I can put up with a 10 min confirmation time, just for the sake of this argument.
But to pay 70,000 satoshi in order to have 20 min confirmation, is just ridiculous. I might as well just switch to Paypal, what is the difference at this point?
The alternative of course was to wait 30-40 blocks with a 12000 satoshi fee.
Now is Bitcoin "A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System" like satoshi wanted, with 70,000 satoshi fee OR 40 block wait time?
Or is Bitcoin just a Frankenstein monster, that has obvious flaws (this, miner centralization, nodes are not incentivized, etc) that will slowly die off once better alternatives come in?
And the community reaction is also deplorable. Most people call me troll or shill, just for pointing out legitimate criticisms? What you can't criticize Bitcoin now? Is Bitcoin just an echochamber of fanatics and fanboys? Because without criticism, you can't solve issues.
Given the fact that most new Bitcoiners are from 3rd world countries, where high transaction fee is unacceptable. And given the fact that most people in the world like simple & elegant solutions (like how Apple conquered the marketplace with this method).
People want simple solutions:
So out of these 5 critical marketing poinst, bitcoin can only deliver 1, which is a very poor performance. And there are of course other security related issues, but they are not necessarly cared by Average Joe.
So it seems to me that 3rd worlders have absolutely no incentive to use Bitcoin. They will just use another cryptocurrency that can deliver these promises.
Segwit will probably not pass, and then we will be stuck another 2 years bitching and moaning at eachother and trying to find scapegoats.
And in that time, Bitcoin will be replaced by a better alternative, once the majority of people realize that it's pointless to argue with trolls.
So after 4 years of being in this community, I'm afraid I have to leave it now. I don't see any hope for Bitcoin in the long run. It was a good prototype, and it definitely taught us a lot of good technical things, but also a lot of game theory/ sociology things, where it has been proven in my opinion, that consensus can't be made without a clear voting platform.
So yes, Bitcoin was the first, we thank satoshi for his work. But Bitcoin isn't "THE ONE". It's just a failed prototype with many bugs. And out of this failure a better and stronger coin will arise.
I am in Bitcoin since 2013-2014, I have seen all of it, and mostly the inability of it to evolve. It wasn't as bad until 2015, and throughout 2016 I was silent, but now it's 2017, and things are getting worse. Only a fool will deny that.
If this continues, then Bitcoin will be over. I don't want that, since I have obviously invested a lot of time and effort into this. But I fear that there is no other option now, as I am seeing the inability of the community to resolve issues.
I have sent a transaction 2 days ago, and guess how much fee I had to pay? 70,000 satoshi.
Yes 70,000 satoshi for an average size transaction, with 1 input and 1 output, in order to be confirmed within 2 blocks.
I remember the time when back in 2014 I used to work 3 hours doing stupid faucets for 70,000 satoshi, and now it's all gone in 1 transaction?
Now I have heard the dumbasses saying that we can't have faster than 10 min confirm time because it will create orphans (strangely other cryptocoins don't have this issue). So I can put up with a 10 min confirmation time, just for the sake of this argument.
But to pay 70,000 satoshi in order to have 20 min confirmation, is just ridiculous. I might as well just switch to Paypal, what is the difference at this point?
The alternative of course was to wait 30-40 blocks with a 12000 satoshi fee.
Now is Bitcoin "A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System" like satoshi wanted, with 70,000 satoshi fee OR 40 block wait time?
Or is Bitcoin just a Frankenstein monster, that has obvious flaws (this, miner centralization, nodes are not incentivized, etc) that will slowly die off once better alternatives come in?
And the community reaction is also deplorable. Most people call me troll or shill, just for pointing out legitimate criticisms? What you can't criticize Bitcoin now? Is Bitcoin just an echochamber of fanatics and fanboys? Because without criticism, you can't solve issues.
Given the fact that most new Bitcoiners are from 3rd world countries, where high transaction fee is unacceptable. And given the fact that most people in the world like simple & elegant solutions (like how Apple conquered the marketplace with this method).
People want simple solutions:
- Pronouncable addresses instead of long hash text
- Instant confirmation times (yes it's possible)
- Low or no fees (yes it's possible)
- Unlimited transactions (yes it's possible)
- Simple wallet GUI (ok, this one bitcoin does have through mobile apps)
So out of these 5 critical marketing poinst, bitcoin can only deliver 1, which is a very poor performance. And there are of course other security related issues, but they are not necessarly cared by Average Joe.
So it seems to me that 3rd worlders have absolutely no incentive to use Bitcoin. They will just use another cryptocurrency that can deliver these promises.
Segwit will probably not pass, and then we will be stuck another 2 years bitching and moaning at eachother and trying to find scapegoats.
And in that time, Bitcoin will be replaced by a better alternative, once the majority of people realize that it's pointless to argue with trolls.
So after 4 years of being in this community, I'm afraid I have to leave it now. I don't see any hope for Bitcoin in the long run. It was a good prototype, and it definitely taught us a lot of good technical things, but also a lot of game theory/ sociology things, where it has been proven in my opinion, that consensus can't be made without a clear voting platform.
So yes, Bitcoin was the first, we thank satoshi for his work. But Bitcoin isn't "THE ONE". It's just a failed prototype with many bugs. And out of this failure a better and stronger coin will arise.
Quoted for future reference. Now you can join the club of losers that quit and then realize the bitcoin price went x2 when they look back just like Mike Hearn. So please dump, and come back in a couple of years so we can laugh at you and your FUD.
Bitcoin is the best. No coin that has cheap fast onchain transactions at VISA level while offering the same security backed by the massive bitcoin PoW network will ever exist because its physically impossible. If such coin existed, we would all buy and become billionaires overnight.
The VISA part will get covered by LN. If we don't get an optimal LN, you can blame the idiots that block segwit.
In any case, bitcoin will remain the most valued coin and will only keep growing, so have fun being a loser.
Ahh, I don't know how to say this, but I have to say the truth. Bitcoin is over. The 8 year experiment that was meant to change the world for the better
So you think that less than decade should be enough for Bitcoin to take over the world? 8 years to estroy all centralized competition: financial institutions, electronic payment processors and become pinnacle of evolution of currency?
It is not how development and progress works. World won't change over night, even with the most ground breaking invention.
Here, look at this map, it is the map of entire internet in 1969:
I bet if were developer of the internet network back then you would say something like this:
"oh, so after a couple years, internet disappointed me, it is a failed experiment. I can't imagine that people will ever be using it."
Alright, have a good journey doing whatever you want in outside the doors of your house -away from your computer screen. Seriously, there's been something close to 1 of these type of threads per week and the person comes back within weeks or months.
Bitcoin will stay for now, the transaction fees don't matter much to people that know how to use a Bitcoin Client correctly.
I hope that you don't get too serious with Bitcoin so you could at least sleep at night and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ (father, Holy Spirit and son) everyday.
Bitcoin will stay for now, the transaction fees don't matter much to people that know how to use a Bitcoin Client correctly.
I hope that you don't get too serious with Bitcoin so you could at least sleep at night and pray to the Lord Jesus Christ (father, Holy Spirit and son) everyday.
SOMEONE SHOULD HELP ME OUT, I STOP RECEIVING AUTHORIZATION MAIL FROM BLOCKCHAIN... WHAT CAN I DO PLS?
Hey man, this is not the appropriate thread to be asking for help. You have a whole section just for that.
As for your issue, why don´t you just change the password and start using one that it is real good hey?
SOMEONE SHOULD HELP ME OUT, I STOP RECEIVING AUTHORIZATION MAIL FROM BLOCKCHAIN... WHAT CAN I DO PLS?
First off, what the hell is up with this guy?
@OP: I agree with you that bitcoin is not "the one." The one that will liberate us all from fiat currency or physical currency that would revolutionize the whole financial system. However, bitcoins will not yet die within the next couple of years. It is still an effective platform to use as a financial medium of exchange. Sure it has that much flaws, but it sure is still popular than any other alt coin.
I guess I'll need to agree with the guy! He really needs to stay away from Bitcoin as far as he can. It seems it is not doing him any good. So, yes just go away, just leave Bitcoin, with your kind of assumptions you will be doing the community a favor.
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