GOP Tea Party Debate: Audience Cheers, Says Society Should Let Uninsured Die - page 2.

Hawker

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Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 17, 2011, 11:28:31 AM

Quote from: Hawker on September 17, 2011, 11:18:27 AM

Why bother? The issue is that you want to consume public services but you don't want to pay for them. Reading books by obscure 19th century guys won't really do in lieu of payment.

Because even when technology changes, human nature does not. Obscure, huh? Yeah, the 'old' truth can't be anything like the 'new' truth now can it? As if murder, theft and enslavement are out of vogue these days.

If you want I'll even provide a link for you, if you're still inclined.

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G001

I've linked and see that you reproduce his logic errors.

Still waiting to see why you think you are entitled to the protection of the state but that you feel that you should not have to pay for it.

FredericBastiat

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Quote from: Hawker on September 17, 2011, 11:18:27 AM

Why bother? The issue is that you want to consume public services but you don't want to pay for them. Reading books by obscure 19th century guys won't really do in lieu of payment.

Because even when technology changes, human nature does not. Obscure, huh? Yeah, the 'old' truth can't be anything like the 'new' truth now can it? As if murder, theft and enslavement are out of vogue these days.

If you want I'll even provide a link for you, if you're still inclined.

Hawker

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Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 17, 2011, 11:11:55 AM

Quote from: Hawker on September 17, 2011, 08:21:04 AM

Fred agrees that the incarceration of violent mentally ill is needed to protect people from violence. Fred agrees that he benefits as much as anyone else does from that protection. The specific point he disagrees with is whether or not he should have to pay for that protection.

If you don't mind, go read "The Law" by Frederic Bastiat. The text is available online and it's only about 50 pages. Let me know what you think.

Why bother? The issue is that you want to consume public services but you don't want to pay for them. Reading books by obscure 19th century guys won't really do in lieu of payment.

FredericBastiat

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Quote from: Hawker on September 17, 2011, 08:21:04 AM

Fred agrees that the incarceration of violent mentally ill is needed to protect people from violence. Fred agrees that he benefits as much as anyone else does from that protection. The specific point he disagrees with is whether or not he should have to pay for that protection.

If you don't mind, go read "The Law" by Frederic Bastiat. The text is available online and it's only about 50 pages. Let me know what you think.

Hawker

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Quote from: cryptobard on September 17, 2011, 07:42:01 AM

...snip...

Can you explain in concrete terms how it is that Bastiat here is "benefiting so greatly from our current system"? Without assuming things about him or her as an individual.

I think people who make statements like yours are generalizing from their own case more than they realize.

Fred agrees that the incarceration of violent mentally ill is needed to protect people from violence. Fred agrees that he benefits as much as anyone else does from that protection. The specific point he disagrees with is whether or not he should have to pay for that protection.

cryptobard

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Quote from: FlipPro on September 17, 2011, 07:02:10 AM

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 04:40:47 PM

Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 16, 2011, 04:36:09 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 04:25:23 PM

If you agree with the need for the service, then you agree it must be paid for. The service is not for 1 person or for 1 group of people - its for everyone in society. So everyone in society has to pay for it. The mechanism for collecting that payment is called tax. Stop please calling it "plunder" and "stealing" and "theft" - tax is the best way to provide the service.

I need food or I will eventually starve...
I need air or I will eventually suffocate...
I need water or I will eventually dehydrate...
I need clothes in cold weather or I will eventually die of hyperthermia...
therefore...wait for it...

I must tax to get those things I need.

Yes? Lovely logic. Non sequitur. Straw Man argument. Moving on.

You are capable of better logic so please stop being silly. You need society to provide 24/7 care for the violently mentally ill. You can do the rest yourself. Since you are using the service society provides, you must pay for it through taxation.

If you have a better alternative, feel free to offer it. So far all you say is "Yes I need the service." and "No I won't pay for it."

+1 I can't stand people who benefit so greatly from our current system, seeking to destroy it for everyone else. Disgusting selfishness is what I call it.

Can you explain in concrete terms how it is that Bastiat here is "benefiting so greatly from our current system"? Without assuming things about him or her as an individual.

I think people who make statements like yours are generalizing from their own case more than they realize.

FlipPro

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Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 04:40:47 PM

Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 16, 2011, 04:36:09 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 04:25:23 PM

If you agree with the need for the service, then you agree it must be paid for. The service is not for 1 person or for 1 group of people - its for everyone in society. So everyone in society has to pay for it. The mechanism for collecting that payment is called tax. Stop please calling it "plunder" and "stealing" and "theft" - tax is the best way to provide the service.

I need food or I will eventually starve...
I need air or I will eventually suffocate...
I need water or I will eventually dehydrate...
I need clothes in cold weather or I will eventually die of hyperthermia...
therefore...wait for it...

I must tax to get those things I need.

Yes? Lovely logic. Non sequitur. Straw Man argument. Moving on.

You are capable of better logic so please stop being silly. You need society to provide 24/7 care for the violently mentally ill. You can do the rest yourself. Since you are using the service society provides, you must pay for it through taxation.

If you have a better alternative, feel free to offer it. So far all you say is "Yes I need the service." and "No I won't pay for it."

+1 I can't stand people who benefit so greatly from our current system, seeking to destroy it for everyone else. Disgusting selfishness is what I call it.

Hawker

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Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 16, 2011, 04:36:09 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 04:25:23 PM

If you agree with the need for the service, then you agree it must be paid for. The service is not for 1 person or for 1 group of people - its for everyone in society. So everyone in society has to pay for it. The mechanism for collecting that payment is called tax. Stop please calling it "plunder" and "stealing" and "theft" - tax is the best way to provide the service.

I need food or I will eventually starve...
I need air or I will eventually suffocate...
I need water or I will eventually dehydrate...
I need clothes in cold weather or I will eventually die of hyperthermia...
therefore...wait for it...

I must tax to get those things I need.

Yes? Lovely logic. Non sequitur. Straw Man argument. Moving on.

You are capable of better logic so please stop being silly. You need society to provide 24/7 care for the violently mentally ill. You can do the rest yourself. Since you are using the service society provides, you must pay for it through taxation.

If you have a better alternative, feel free to offer it. So far all you say is "Yes I need the service." and "No I won't pay for it."

FredericBastiat

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Activity: 420

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Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 04:25:23 PM

If you agree with the need for the service, then you agree it must be paid for. The service is not for 1 person or for 1 group of people - its for everyone in society. So everyone in society has to pay for it. The mechanism for collecting that payment is called tax. Stop please calling it "plunder" and "stealing" and "theft" - tax is the best way to provide the service.

I need food or I will eventually starve...
I need air or I will eventually suffocate...
I need water or I will eventually dehydrate...
I need clothes in cold weather or I will eventually die of hyperthermia...
therefore...wait for it...

I must tax to get those things I need.

Yes? Lovely logic. Non sequitur. Straw Man argument. Moving on.

Hawker

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Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 16, 2011, 04:21:20 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 04:10:26 PM

Um, you are using the service. The incarceration of violent mentally ill protects you just as much as it protects any citizen.

The important thing here is that you agree the service is needed. You just don't want to pay for the protection you receive. Unless you have something more intelligent that "I want it for free and I want it now" I think your attempt to offer an idea for organising a society has just fallen apart.

I'd really appreciate it that you not put words in my mouth. I'm also not interested in organizing a society. If a society comes about by and thru its individuality, then great. I'm not interested in social engineering. I'll leave that up to the Lenin's and Hitler's and Stalin's to figure out.

I do agree with you that the service is needed, just not that I need to steal to get it. I'd like to avoid that, as it has a really bad stigma associated with it, and tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth... you know, a lot like the words you were trying to shove in there.

If you agree with the need for the service, then you agree it must be paid for. The service is not for 1 person or for 1 group of people - its for everyone in society. So everyone in society has to pay for it. The mechanism for collecting that payment is called tax. Stop please calling it "plunder" and "stealing" and "theft" - tax is the best way to provide the service.

FredericBastiat

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Activity: 420

Merit: 250

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 04:10:26 PM

Um, you are using the service. The incarceration of violent mentally ill protects you just as much as it protects any citizen.

The important thing here is that you agree the service is needed. You just don't want to pay for the protection you receive. Unless you have something more intelligent that "I want it for free and I want it now" I think your attempt to offer an idea for organising a society has just fallen apart.

I'd really appreciate it that you not put words in my mouth. I'm also not interested in organizing a society. If a society comes about by and thru its individuality, then great. I'm not interested in social engineering. I'll leave that up to the Lenin's and Hitler's and Stalin's to figure out.

I do agree with you that the service is needed, just not that I need to steal to get it. I'd like to avoid that, as it has a really bad stigma associated with it, and tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth... you know, a lot like the words you were trying to shove in there.

Hawker

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Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 16, 2011, 04:04:50 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 03:44:43 PM

So you say there is a problem with taxes, then you want me to come up with something better? There is no problem with taxes - tax is the correct way to pay for the incarceration of people who need to be incarcerated. If you have an issue with that, then you come up with something better. If you can't, stop bleating that society is "plundering" its citizens when it raises taxes to pay for the services they voted for.

I have no problem if the citizens in "your" society voted for a tax. Go right ahead and "plunder" each other. I did not vote for that so, therefore and thusly, I'm not in accord with your methods and means. Do not come after me to collect, for I did not give you my explicit consent to do so. I will not use your services, so I should not be expected to pay for them. Thanks.

Um, you are using the service. The incarceration of violent mentally ill protects you just as much as it protects any citizen.

The important thing here is that you agree the service is needed. You just don't want to pay for the protection you receive. Unless you have something more intelligent that "I want it for free and I want it now" I think your attempt to offer an idea for organising a society has just fallen apart.

FredericBastiat

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Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 03:44:43 PM

So you say there is a problem with taxes, then you want me to come up with something better? There is no problem with taxes - tax is the correct way to pay for the incarceration of people who need to be incarcerated. If you have an issue with that, then you come up with something better. If you can't, stop bleating that society is "plundering" its citizens when it raises taxes to pay for the services they voted for.

I have no problem if the citizens in "your" society voted for a tax. Go right ahead and "plunder" each other. I did not vote for that so, therefore and thusly, I'm not in accord with your methods and means. Do not come after me to collect, for I did not give you my explicit consent to do so. I will not use your services, so I should not be expected to pay for them. Thanks.

Hawker

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Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 16, 2011, 03:40:10 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 03:14:54 PM

You are avoiding answering the question.

There are people who need to be incarcerated and cared for 24/7 because they are a danger to themselves and to society. This is expensive. You have said that you personally would not contribute to this cost. If we do not have taxation, how will their care be paid for?

How about you try and use your imagination and assume that taxes aren't available to you. Now come up with a solution. It isn't that hard to do. If you can't do that, you really are putting blinders on, or you're more ignorant than you sound. Should I have to do your homework for you?

You remind me of some people I work with. They feign ignorance, do nothing but ask questions all day long, and then defer to others when they want to get something done. If they can't do that, they pretend to do something, intentionally fail at it, and then say it wasn't possible because they couldn't do it -as if that conclusion had any veracity whatsoever.

Don't be so naive to think that if a solution can't be found by you, it can only be found at the end of a bayonet.

So you say there is a problem with taxes, then you want me to come up with something better? There is no problem with taxes - tax is the correct way to pay for the incarceration of people who need to be incarcerated. If you have an issue with that, then you come up with something better. If you can't, stop bleating that society is "plundering" its citizens when it raises taxes to pay for the services they voted for.

FredericBastiat

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Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 03:14:54 PM

You are avoiding answering the question.

There are people who need to be incarcerated and cared for 24/7 because they are a danger to themselves and to society. This is expensive. You have said that you personally would not contribute to this cost. If we do not have taxation, how will their care be paid for?

How about you try and use your imagination and assume that taxes aren't available to you. Now come up with a solution. It isn't that hard to do. If you can't do that, you really are putting blinders on, or you're more ignorant than you sound. Should I have to do your homework for you?

You remind me of some people I work with. They feign ignorance, do nothing but ask questions all day long, and then defer to others when they want to get something done. If they can't do that, they pretend to do something, intentionally fail at it, and then say it wasn't possible because they couldn't do it -as if that conclusion had any veracity whatsoever.

Don't be so naive to think that if a solution can't be found by you, it can only be found at the end of a bayonet.

Hawker

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Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 16, 2011, 03:10:31 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 02:05:00 PM

You think care of the mentally ill is mollycoddling! Are you totally cut off from the real world? Right now over half of all who are imprisoned in the US for violence are mentally ill. You can't possibly expect poor families to cope with the 24/7 care of violent ill people. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/15/opinion/15harcourt.html

Please stop trying to avoid the reality that there are people who are so dangerous they need to be locked up. And offer a semi-intelligent way for their 24/7 care to be paid for.

I was speaking about the mollycoddling of you and your ideology specifically. Assisting the inferm is not mollycoddling. I do believe that it is possible to take care of the ill without plundering your neighbor to do it. You have no faith in humanity at all it seems.

You misread the article. It said that many of the inmates were reporting mental illness problems. That does not necessarily imply that was the reason they were imprisoned in the first place. Unless what you're going to say next is, they are mentally ill because they commit violent crime. I sure hope not.

You are avoiding answering the question.

There are people who need to be incarcerated and cared for 24/7 because they are a danger to themselves and to society. This is expensive. You have said that you personally would not contribute to this cost. If we do not have taxation, how will their care be paid for?

FredericBastiat

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Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 02:05:00 PM

You think care of the mentally ill is mollycoddling! Are you totally cut off from the real world? Right now over half of all who are imprisoned in the US for violence are mentally ill. You can't possibly expect poor families to cope with the 24/7 care of violent ill people. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/15/opinion/15harcourt.html

Please stop trying to avoid the reality that there are people who are so dangerous they need to be locked up. And offer a semi-intelligent way for their 24/7 care to be paid for.

I was speaking about the mollycoddling of you and your ideology specifically. Assisting the inferm is not mollycoddling. I do believe that it is possible to take care of the ill without plundering your neighbor to do it. You have no faith in humanity at all it seems.

You misread the article. It said that many of the inmates were reporting mental illness problems. That does not necessarily imply that was the reason they were imprisoned in the first place. Unless what you're going to say next is, they are mentally ill because they commit violent crime. I sure hope not.

compro01

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Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 02:05:00 PM

Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 16, 2011, 12:13:57 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 02:34:56 AM

So in your dream society, mentally ill people will be incarcerated for life and charged for it. You think that someone who is so ill that they are a danger to themselves or society is going to be able to pay for 24/7 medical care.

That's delusional. Really even for a person who doesn't like to deal with the real world such as yourself, that is daft.

Are we to assume that these mentally ill people are violent and incapable of survival? Are we also to assume that these menally ill people don't have parents, friends, or other caring individuals (charitable organizations) who would want to take care of them? A similar argument could be made about children.

That's delusional and daft too. I've seen the real world, and much of what I see doesn't impress me when it comes to government intervention programs.

Try to think outside the box, and stop insisting you need society to mollycoddle you so much.

You think care of the mentally ill is mollycoddling! Are you totally cut off from the real world? Right now over half of all who are imprisoned in the US for violence are mentally ill. You can't possibly expect poor families to cope with the 24/7 care of violent ill people. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/15/opinion/15harcourt.html

Please stop trying to avoid the reality that there are people who are so dangerous they need to be locked up. And offer a semi-intelligent way for their 24/7 care to be paid for.

didn't you hear him? charities will take care of it. obviously, Good Libertarian People will joyfully donate much of their income to Worthy Charitable Organizations providing all necessary services to those who can't pay for them themselves.

Hawker

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Quote from: FredericBastiat on September 16, 2011, 12:13:57 PM

Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 02:34:56 AM

So in your dream society, mentally ill people will be incarcerated for life and charged for it. You think that someone who is so ill that they are a danger to themselves or society is going to be able to pay for 24/7 medical care.

That's delusional. Really even for a person who doesn't like to deal with the real world such as yourself, that is daft.

Are we to assume that these mentally ill people are violent and incapable of survival? Are we also to assume that these menally ill people don't have parents, friends, or other caring individuals (charitable organizations) who would want to take care of them? A similar argument could be made about children.

That's delusional and daft too. I've seen the real world, and much of what I see doesn't impress me when it comes to government intervention programs.

Try to think outside the box, and stop insisting you need society to mollycoddle you so much.

You think care of the mentally ill is mollycoddling! Are you totally cut off from the real world? Right now over half of all who are imprisoned in the US for violence are mentally ill. You can't possibly expect poor families to cope with the 24/7 care of violent ill people. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/15/opinion/15harcourt.html

Please stop trying to avoid the reality that there are people who are so dangerous they need to be locked up. And offer a semi-intelligent way for their 24/7 care to be paid for.

FredericBastiat

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Quote from: Hawker on September 16, 2011, 02:34:56 AM

So in your dream society, mentally ill people will be incarcerated for life and charged for it. You think that someone who is so ill that they are a danger to themselves or society is going to be able to pay for 24/7 medical care.

That's delusional. Really even for a person who doesn't like to deal with the real world such as yourself, that is daft.

Are we to assume that these mentally ill people are violent and incapable of survival? Are we also to assume that these menally ill people don't have parents, friends, or other caring individuals (charitable organizations) who would want to take care of them? A similar argument could be made about children.

That's delusional and daft too. I've seen the real world, and much of what I see doesn't impress me when it comes to government intervention programs.

Try to think outside the box, and stop insisting you need society to mollycoddle you so much.

Topic: GOP Tea Party Debate: Audience Cheers, Says Society Should Let Uninsured Die - page 2. (Read 7016 times)