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Topic: Gox Exit/Entrance Speculation - page 2. (Read 3108 times)

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
February 25, 2014, 05:32:04 PM
#27
There are laws regarding fraud and laws regarding securities, and the two can be separate. If Karpeles ran off with the coins, securities law isn't relevant. We're talking theft on a massive scale....straight up fraud, both civil and criminal. Japanese National Police, not the FSA.

Exactly.  Fraud and theft are always illegal.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
February 25, 2014, 05:26:36 PM
#26
There are laws regarding fraud and laws regarding securities, and the two can be separate. If Karpeles ran off with the coins, securities law isn't relevant. We're talking theft on a massive scale....straight up fraud, both civil and criminal. Japanese National Police, not the FSA.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
February 25, 2014, 05:18:52 PM
#25
My opinion:

Would it be legal for the acquisition company to buy up all the cheap coins before trading resumes?

Yes, for example, they could legally pick up the Gox BTC IOUs for sale at BitcoinBuilder.

Quote
How about declaring bankrupty and paying everyone the last price of $135 USD?

No, the decision for how to salvage what remains of MtGox would be made in bankruptcy court in a way that maximizes what is returned to the Gox creditors (who are mostly the Gox BTC and USD IOU holders).  MtGox would not have a say.

member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
February 25, 2014, 05:15:25 PM
#24

Remember that Pirate40 was charged by the SEC for violating securities law. Securities laws do apply to bitcoin businesses. Clearly there is a difference between a BTC-denominated security and BTC -- but I am very much unconvinced that securities regulation do not apply to pertinent businesses.

In my view, this would very much violate the spirit of securities regulation. The fact that BTC is not backed by any asset does not explicitly allow businesses to engage in fraud.

Sure, if there are no laws that can be applied, there are no laws that can be applied. You haven't actually done the legal research to determine whether or not there are applicable laws.

No, I haven't and there probably are laws that can be applied. Pirate40 violated SEC law because he was engaged in a fraudalent Ponzi investment scheme. This falls under the SEC and is completely different than someone front-running unregulated Bitcoin or simply stealing someone else's coins. If someone broke into your house and stole your BTC, the SEC would not get involved.

Listen, I am not defending Gox. I can't stand the company. And they probably committed fraud on many levels that can be prosecuted under some sort of law. The FBI would probably have found a way to prosecute them for wire fraud (at least) if they were US based and accepting USD. But you mentioned insider trading and front running in a previous post. IMO securities law does not apply to those and may not apply here because he was not engaged in an "investment" scheme and securities laws don't apply to Bitcoin trading.

I will say -- back in April Gox put out a ridiculous PR stating the Bitcoin is meant to always increase in value, among other very unprofessional statements. In the US, the SEC probably would've gotten involved because you cannot improperly promote something as an investment.

Again, not legal advice -- simply my opinion.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
One Token to Move Anything Anywhere
February 25, 2014, 05:11:46 PM
#23
Would it be legal for the acquisition company to buy up all the cheap coins before trading resumes?

How about declaring bankrupty and paying everyone the last price of $135 USD?

The f***ers
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
February 25, 2014, 05:02:09 PM
#22
Would it be legal for the acquisition company to buy up all the cheap coins before trading resumes?

How about declaring bankrupty and paying everyone the last price of $135 USD?
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 508
February 25, 2014, 04:47:36 PM
#21

That's what I meant by "other appropriate agency." Bitcoin must fall under the purview of a regulatory agency. I meant actual laws -- not a stated position which can be reversed.

But if that 'other agency' does not have laws on the books that pertain to front-running, etc etc, then it is not illegal. And only FSA would have those laws. Does that make sense?

In the U.S., Bitcoin is regulated under FINCEN (MSB). They have no avenue to regulate front-running or insider trading. Insider trading in Bitcoin is 100% legal. If it were regulated by the SEC it would be illegal.

I'm not an attorney; this is not legal advice.

Remember that Pirate40 was charged by the SEC for violating securities law. Securities laws do apply to bitcoin businesses. Clearly there is a difference between a BTC-denominated security and BTC -- but I am very much unconvinced that securities regulation do not apply to pertinent businesses.

In my view, this would very much violate the spirit of securities regulation. The fact that BTC is not backed by any asset does not explicitly allow businesses to engage in fraud.

Sure, if there are no laws that can be applied, there are no laws that can be applied. You haven't actually done the legal research to determine whether or not there are applicable laws.
hero member
Activity: 777
Merit: 500
February 25, 2014, 04:31:01 PM
#20
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
February 25, 2014, 04:24:14 PM
#19

That's what I meant by "other appropriate agency." Bitcoin must fall under the purview of a regulatory agency. I meant actual laws -- not a stated position which can be reversed.

But if that 'other agency' does not have laws on the books that pertain to front-running, etc etc, then it is not illegal. And only FSA would have those laws. Does that make sense?

In the U.S., Bitcoin is regulated under FINCEN (MSB). They have no avenue to regulate front-running or insider trading. Insider trading in Bitcoin is 100% legal. If it were regulated by the SEC it would be illegal.

I'm not an attorney; this is not legal advice.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 508
February 25, 2014, 04:18:48 PM
#18

See what the FSA has to say about it. And then ponder how the law could conceivably be interpreted. I can't be bothered, personally.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304834704579402751676012112?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304834704579402751676012112.html

"Bitcoin isn't a currency; it works as an alternative to currencies, like gold," an FSA spokesman said Monday. "The FSA is in charge of currency-based services. Therefore, bitcoin exchanges are not a subject to our regulatory oversight."

That's what I meant by "other appropriate agency." Bitcoin must fall under the purview of a regulatory agency. I meant actual laws -- not a stated position which can be reversed.
sr. member
Activity: 339
Merit: 250
February 25, 2014, 04:17:33 PM
#17
There are many powerful people who hate bitcoin and therefore hate Gox. They faked the document to try and bring a total collapse of one or both. Gox reacted by stopping all trading to save bitcoin price. They will announce something soon about the phoney document and that they are merging with another company - that will restore confidence before they then re-start trading.
hero member
Activity: 1470
Merit: 504
February 25, 2014, 04:17:07 PM
#16

See what the FSA has to say about it. And then ponder how the law could conceivably be interpreted. I can't be bothered, personally.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304834704579402751676012112?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304834704579402751676012112.html

"Bitcoin isn't a currency; it works as an alternative to currencies, like gold," an FSA spokesman said Monday. "The FSA is in charge of currency-based services. Therefore, bitcoin exchanges are not a subject to our regulatory oversight."

Does an exchange record earnings in Bitcoin or in fiat currency? That makes absolutely no sense; exchanges profit in cash, pay taxes on cash, and operate in cash.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
February 25, 2014, 04:14:06 PM
#15

See what the FSA has to say about it. And then ponder how the law could conceivably be interpreted. I can't be bothered, personally.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304834704579402751676012112?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304834704579402751676012112.html

"Bitcoin isn't a currency; it works as an alternative to currencies, like gold," an FSA spokesman said Monday. "The FSA is in charge of currency-based services. Therefore, bitcoin exchanges are not a subject to our regulatory oversight."
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 508
February 25, 2014, 04:07:58 PM
#14

I'd say good luck to anyone pushing that argument. Again, that the FSA has not chosen to regulate bitcoin as yet, and the fact that there are no regulations specific to bitcoin do not mean that these businesses are not subject to applicable laws. It's a matter of which regulations bitcoin falls under, and when the FSA or other appropriate agency decides to pursue that matter.

I get what you're saying -- fraud is still illegal. But securities laws are very specific. Insider trading laws are much more limited in the commodities markets (I was regulated by the CFTC, so I know a little about this). Insider trading laws don't exist with Bitcoin.

Outright theft is illegal, of course. Front-running? I don't see how that would be considered illegal but could certainly be grounds for a Civil case.

See what the FSA has to say about it. And then ponder how the law could conceivably be interpreted. I can't be bothered, personally.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
February 25, 2014, 04:05:52 PM
#13

I'd say good luck to anyone pushing that argument. Again, that the FSA has not chosen to regulate bitcoin as yet, and the fact that there are no regulations specific to bitcoin do not mean that these businesses are not subject to applicable laws. It's a matter of which regulations bitcoin falls under, and when the FSA or other appropriate agency decides to pursue that matter.

I get what you're saying -- fraud is still illegal. But securities laws are very specific. Insider trading laws are much more limited in the commodities markets (I was regulated by the CFTC, so I know a little about this). Insider trading laws don't exist with Bitcoin.

Outright theft is illegal, of course. Front-running? I don't see how that would be considered illegal but could certainly be grounds for a Civil case.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 508
February 25, 2014, 03:24:30 PM
#12

There seems to be a common misconception about what it means to be "unregulated". It doesn't mean that businesses engaged in the exchange of bitcoins are not subject to any laws.

I am confident that operating an insolvent corporation and engaging in securities fraud (front running, insider trading) are illegal.

I am not. Front-running is illegal if one is regulated by the SEC. Is it illegal if one is unregulated? It is illegal to trade stocks using insider information, but not Bitcoin. There are no regulations other than MSB requirements that provide any legal avenues for this......I suppose it would be a Civil Court issue. Bitcoin is not a security.

I'd say good luck to anyone pushing that argument. Again, that the FSA has not chosen to regulate bitcoin as yet, and the fact that there are no regulations specific to bitcoin do not mean that these businesses are not subject to applicable laws. It's a matter of which regulations bitcoin falls under, and when the FSA or other appropriate agency decides to pursue that matter.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
February 25, 2014, 03:15:57 PM
#11
Pretty sure Mark has a dartboard with cool computer phrases on it like "take down site", "lose coins", "make announcements soonish", "purchase similar domain", etc., that he throws darts at. Competency/knowledge isn't the Goxxian strong suit.

Agreed.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
February 25, 2014, 03:13:24 PM
#10
I think the most obvious motive for a conspiracy would be just to fake insolvency (can it be proven?) and run with the Bitcoins. In that regard it would make perfect sense to 'leak' said document with the information it contains.

This too! Yep. And simpler. He starts over with a massive cache of coins.....

Perhaps it began unraveling with a few lost coins and then he decided to take what he could while he could.

All speculation, of course.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
February 25, 2014, 03:11:37 PM
#9

There seems to be a common misconception about what it means to be "unregulated". It doesn't mean that businesses engaged in the exchange of bitcoins are not subject to any laws.

I am confident that operating an insolvent corporation and engaging in securities fraud (front running, insider trading) are illegal.

I am not. Front-running is illegal if one is regulated by the SEC. Is it illegal if one is unregulated? It is illegal to trade stocks using insider information, but not Bitcoin. There are no regulations other than MSB requirements that provide any legal avenues for this......I suppose it would be a Civil Court issue. Bitcoin is not a security.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
February 25, 2014, 03:10:50 PM
#8
I think the most obvious motive for a conspiracy would be just to fake insolvency (can it be proven?) and run with the Bitcoins. In that regard it would make perfect sense to 'leak' said document with the information it contains.
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