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Topic: Gox is Goxxin! (Read 3936 times)

kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1025
September 02, 2011, 01:00:21 PM
#34
HTML is very easy to parse and interpret.

That is actually not true Wink But you have a point. It is possible for bots to act even without APIs. I believe that the only way to prevent bot abuse would be to introduce some fees/time interval for cancelling orders or something like that. If that is a good idea or not, I don't know. Aren't forex/stock markets full of bots too?

Yeah, if you are new to regex, you shouldn't be trying to parse general HTML with it, but you can generally get away with parsing specific HTML from a given site.  Or, you know, use any of the many tools that will parse HTML for you and give you a nested object with all of the elements, tags and attributes.

If your opponent is actively trying to deny you, you might need to also parse javascript, or even write a javascript simulator.  You might also need to break CAPTCHAs, which isn't hard, because if they get too difficult, they start acting in reverse, where getting it wrong suggests a higher probability that the user is human and getting it right suggests a computer.

Doing it with time or fees actually backfires, because it just means that the spread will be wider and the market less liquid.

I have no objection to fees to account for the load on the servers, or to gently discourage certain practices that lead to excessive loads.  But in general, the people that are against bots are either fighting the wrong thing (they think the depths charts are meaningful), or they are pushing for the wrong solution (they couldn't log in because some server was over loaded).
member
Activity: 358
Merit: 10
September 02, 2011, 11:16:43 AM
#33
How is the BTC exchange rate calculated?? anyway
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 501
September 02, 2011, 09:56:59 AM
#32
HTML is very easy to parse and interpret.

That is actually not true Wink But you have a point. It is possible for bots to act even without APIs. I believe that the only way to prevent bot abuse would be to introduce some fees/time interval for cancelling orders or something like that. If that is a good idea or not, I don't know. Aren't forex/stock markets full of bots too?
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1025
September 02, 2011, 09:04:25 AM
#31
Exactly how would bots be prevented?
Eliminate the API's!

You don't think I can write a bot that submits orders through the same website that humans use?  HTML is very easy to parse and interpret.
legendary
Activity: 2408
Merit: 1009
Legen -wait for it- dary
September 02, 2011, 03:29:05 AM
#30
Exactly how would bots be prevented?
Eliminate the API's!
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1025
August 31, 2011, 10:50:48 PM
#29
I'm always curious when I read these threads.  Exactly how would bots be prevented?

Does the existence of things like curl, or various schemes for breaking CAPTCHAs change your plan at all?

Are you at all bothered that banning bots (and enforcing the ban!) would mostly hurt legitimate vendors that need to hedge their exposure so they can continue to operate?  Or that the big traders will have the resources to most easily bypass whatever scheme you suggest?
legendary
Activity: 2100
Merit: 1000
August 31, 2011, 02:16:03 PM
#28
I agree with chodpaba.

Transparency in the order book is not the issue.

It is the overall professionalism and proactivity of the big exchanges that is not (yet) keeping up with the development.
hero member
Activity: 809
Merit: 501
Always verify deals with me through my public key!
August 31, 2011, 02:06:28 PM
#27
Boston shuffler, son!

So basically anybody with enough money and bitcoins can get a bot and manipulate the market to their advantage, profit, and fuck the majority of other traders out there..  Cool.


I honestly think bitcoin is too small for bots.  I don't think bots should be allowed, and I think it would be advantageous to come up with a better method of determining a bitcoin's value and not solely base it on how much danny day trader and his bot want to buy/sell at today.

It will take the cooperation of the exchanges to do anything about it. If they would just add fees to order cancellations over a certain daily amount...


Yup, all it would take is a little fee.

Ticket raised Smiley

Tacotime, you're right, but for the moment allowing your market to be obliterated by individuals will keep other investors away.....no investors....no market to be kept free in the first place.

As for other exchanges....as long as Gox is the gold standard in the early days, BTC's development overall is tied in to it for good or bad, we are free to go to other exchanges(who are nowhere near as liquid and quite shit tbh), but if Gox don't protect this as a fledgling market, at best it will take longer to develop, at worst it will deplete confidence.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1005
August 31, 2011, 01:51:30 PM
#26
Boston shuffler, son!

So basically anybody with enough money and bitcoins can get a bot and manipulate the market to their advantage, profit, and fuck the majority of other traders out there..  Cool.


I honestly think bitcoin is too small for bots.  I don't think bots should be allowed, and I think it would be advantageous to come up with a better method of determining a bitcoin's value and not solely base it on how much danny day trader and his bot want to buy/sell at today.

The bot involvement is what makes bitcoin part of the currency of the future, as pretty much anyone can make a bot to compete with someone else's bot.  You can easily lose your money too with HFT, as has been shown in the 2008 crash.

If bitcoin lasts more than a couple years, we'll see interesting things: Artificial intelligence algorithms applied to the market...

As long as you can recognize someone else's pattern, you can program something yourself to take full advantage of it (and knock off the other player).

Aside from that: If you don't like HFT or retarded fake walls, start your own exchange and limit transactions to one every five minutes and hide all the bids/asks
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1001
August 31, 2011, 01:09:32 PM
#25
Boston shuffler, son!

So basically anybody with enough money and bitcoins can get a bot and manipulate the market to their advantage, profit, and fuck the majority of other traders out there..  Cool.


I honestly think bitcoin is too small for bots.  I don't think bots should be allowed, and I think it would be advantageous to come up with a better method of determining a bitcoin's value and not solely base it on how much danny day trader and his bot want to buy/sell at today.

It will take the cooperation of the exchanges to do anything about it. If they would just add fees to order cancellations over a certain daily amount...


Yup, all it would take is a little fee.
hero member
Activity: 1148
Merit: 501
August 31, 2011, 12:48:23 PM
#24
Boston shuffler, son!

So basically anybody with enough money and bitcoins can get a bot and manipulate the market to their advantage, profit, and fuck the majority of other traders out there..  Cool.


I honestly think bitcoin is too small for bots.  I don't think bots should be allowed, and I think it would be advantageous to come up with a better method of determining a bitcoin's value and not solely base it on how much danny day trader and his bot want to buy/sell at today.
hero member
Activity: 809
Merit: 501
Always verify deals with me through my public key!
August 30, 2011, 05:09:44 PM
#23
The joys of MtGox in a single day.

When the big guy's here there's a cheap algorithmic lab going on bitcoin, it's gonna be the rally of a millennium! Cheesy

That chart sure is purrty!
N12
donator
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1010
August 30, 2011, 02:29:08 PM
#22
The joys of MtGox in a single day.

legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1311
August 30, 2011, 09:22:51 AM
#21
The Sierra Charts feed is all weird.  It's like it's recycling the same trades over and over again, but the last price from my Sierra Chart feed is 8.78 and the last price on MtGox.com is 8.89.
N12
donator
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1010
August 30, 2011, 04:34:55 AM
#20
its not goxxed - what a stupid stupid bash !
It is. Noone can execute any trades for hours while it is going on. Same as yesterday. People base their decisions on the false information (volume and price action) MtGox provides.

And no, I do not believe those are legitimate bot trades. It’s a looped sequence of someone selling into bot asks (whole bunch of small ones) caused by some MtGox bug. You can have a look at http://bitcoin.clarkmoody.com/order-book/ and see for yourself.

Even MagicalTux just confirmed it: [10:34:12] seems like the trade engine goes into an infinite loop

Stop your stupid fanboyism. I hate your kind.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 1004
August 30, 2011, 04:27:10 AM
#19
Fuck you, MtGox, seriously. Fuck you for distorting the volume for the second time in two days. I think this should be considered market manipulation.

its not goxxed - what a stupid stupid bash !

mtgox is not the one who places hundreds of hundreds of 0.01/0.02 bid/asks / doing this loop. He just take the fee from this bored/dumb bot owner and thats his business, so for me no problem with this.

yesterday (on buying side) it took 1 hour and afterwards i've seen 2 walls with 10.000 US$ buying orders each, so even dumber than the bot owner, step in this trap - thought/take this as a buying sign.
The market corrected this ridiculous action afterwards.

so today its on the selling side. lets see what will happen.

*LeanBackTakeOutPopcorn
N12
donator
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1010
August 30, 2011, 04:02:19 AM
#18
Here we go again.



Fuck you, MtGox, seriously. Fuck you for distorting the volume for the second time in two days. I think this should be considered market manipulation.
hero member
Activity: 809
Merit: 501
Always verify deals with me through my public key!
August 29, 2011, 03:09:29 PM
#17
It ain't over yet, someone is trying to ratchet up and entice the chart readers to buy, 15 min RSI now buy signal, with 1K buy bid wall supporting.

Man, this sure is the wild west alright!
hero member
Activity: 809
Merit: 501
Always verify deals with me through my public key!
August 29, 2011, 02:55:54 PM
#16
So.... did someone just sneak in a large buy without sending the price flying up???

hrmmm :/ weird one.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 501
August 29, 2011, 01:51:00 PM
#15
I don't know much about high frequency trading, but I saw that pattern in a ted talk a few weeks ago (around 6:20): http://www.ted.com/talks/kevin_slavin_how_algorithms_shape_our_world.html

He called it "the boston shuffler", but he didn't explain how it worked...
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