Topic: Grading Coins - A Few Basic Questions. (Read 3775 times)

I dont think the rate that cryptocurrencies fluctuate affects whether or not other grading companies will grade these coins. What do they care of the value of the coins ? They are just grading the condition of them. Value to them should be irrelevant, and would not affect the grade a coin recieves.

I agree, its more likley to be a failure to recognise them as legitimate currencies, and a nervousness of association because of some of the knee-jerk negative press that can often be associated with cryptocurrencies (no one has ever used cash to buy drugs or guns, or demanded a cash ransom, if you listen to them ....). Possibly even a degree of snobbery on their part.

On the big scale of things, the population numbers of the crypto coins is dwarved by the mainstream coin market. They clearly dont feel it represents a big enough opportunity for them commercially to pull their heads out of their narrow minded arses ...

also those are the biggest whales in coin grading

they do so much in coins why bother getting involved with what some
may deem as fake currency etc. Also doesnt help the stigma digital currency
wrongfully gets and they may just want to stay away from the negative
publicity for a few bucks. 

I bet the rate at which cryptocurrencies fluctuate is a major reason why PCGS Europe and NGC do not want to grade them

I've asked PCGS Europe and NGC: Coin Certification Company and both don't want to grade cryptocurrency coins. I did not contact ICG though. I asked them about grading, because they are in the EU and I don't have enough coins to justify sending them to ANACS. Well, I have enough coins, but only a few of them are worth grading.

I have previously asked ANACS about the conservation service for physical cryptocurrency coins, and its something that they do not do. But with no additional reasoning behind it ... I assumed due to the risk of damaging to holo / key, but thats just my best guess

ANACS offers a conservation service: "Choose this service to allow ANACS to remove PVC, debris, glue, stains, hazing, and other easily removed and distracting flaws from your submitted coin."

Fingerprints would likely fall under something they could easily remove.

An AU graded coin might fetch a nice premium considering none seem to exist.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever had a coin graded which did not receive an MS rating? I suspect not but would be interested to know. I cannot see why it would be sensible to grade a damaged crypto-coin unless it was extremely rare.

Do fingerprints affect the grade?  I would assume so, but I'm curious.  I have a stash of WDC Antaui's and the maker didn't wear gloves while putting them in the lock tight cases.

Most have one or two finger prints.  How can I expect this to affect the grade?  Thanks guys.

Just saw this:

http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/Specials/CotM_Special.aspx
$30 off (min 10 coins submission)

ICG

You can send the coins in air tites, and if you already have them in air tites then it is probably best if you keep them in them because if you remove them you are risking that you somehow damage the coins (even if you take precautions, use velvet gloves, etc). If you do send the coins in air tites then you will not get them back when ANACS sends back your coins

Out of interest, other than ANACS and CGS, are there any other graders that will accept and grade crypto-currency?

The $7 fee is to print the first bits on the slab. Every slab from ANACS gets that sticker on it to prove it is a real slab from them.

AUTHENTICATED, That's what I meant. Not VERIFIED.

Are you saying that you received the AUTHENTICATED sticker on your coins without paying the verification fee? I hope it's the case. I've always been unclear as to what the "Variety Attribution Verification & Errors" $7 fee was for. I asked once in an email, but they never answered me. I've been paying it on my submission form as instructed by a member here, but I have no clue what I'm paying for. Does anyone have a clear answer on this?

Regards,
Christopher

Every coin I have ever had graded has got the silver sticker on

Have a look at
http://www.anacs.bounce.so/coins.php

Look at the coins I posted the ANACS references of before
4908284 - 4908287
They were all ANACS imaged (costs $3 a coin)

On their rears they have the silver "AUTHENTICATED" sticker

Yep, will do at some point fairly soon.

But need to get some other bits done first of higher priority (like selling some of the coins that have been graded !)

Doesn't the fee also include the shiny silver holographic "VERIFIED" sticker on the back? It might not mean much, but it looks very official, and it may help persuade some potential buyers / collectors who are on the fence.

Regards,
Christopher

This is the result of the 4 coin cross grading I did. It is exactly because ANACS has a 70 scale, and CGS has a 100 scale, that I felt it needed to be done to try and have some yard stick to draw a comparison from (and as we know even between grading orgs that use the 70 scale, they still differ between them)

Coin manufacturer BTC face value   Manuf. Date   Series    Metal   Coin Public key    CGS Grade   CGS Reference   ANACS Grade   ANACS Reference
Casascius                 0.1                 2013                 3     Silver   1AgzMWdZ             96                 34734                 68                 4908286
Casascius                0.1                 2013                 3     Silver   1AgzZrqz                 97                 33409                 68                 4908287
Casascius                 0.1                 2013                 3     Silver   1AgzAJSA             97                 34735                 68                 4908285
Casascius                 0.1                 2013                 3     Silver   1AgzNtiP                 98                 34737                 69                 4908284

I will get this sales thread up over the weekend, or early next week. I have pics of each coin before in the CGS slabs, and after in the ANACS slabs. Just need to get the time to organise everything so that it can be displayed and interpreted

Effectively what the table says is that the equivalent grades, on this sample of 4 coins were

CGS Grade   ANACS Grade
96                 68
97                 68
97                 68
98                 69

Obviously isnt gonna be an exact transposition each time, but it certainly shines some light on it

The golden standard is ANACS and we should obviously stick with that. ANACS was cool enough to accept our coins + the UK scale is totally different. Monkey can you make the grading thread for these guys? If any of my input is needed I will contribute, but I lack the ambition to get it going - lol.

More or less the same way any other coin can be graded.

See: http://www.anacs.com/PDFFiles/ANACS_Brochure.pdf which explains how ANACS grades coins.

How can a crypto coin be graded ? Please provide information on this topic.

CGS have their own grading system which ranges from 1 to 100. Doesn't that make comparisons with ANACS difficult?

Their website says: "Surprisingly there is no universally accepted bench mark standards for the grading of English coins, by this we mean there is no universally recognized independent publication giving bench marks for the grading of English coins. The broad terms in use (see below) Very Good, Fine, Very Fine, Extremely Fine, and Uncirculated although broadly consistent in the main body of the professional UK dealer and bigger auction houses, are subject to the individual “subjective” opinion of the grader at the time based on his experiences and paradigms. To our knowledge no one refers to any accepted universal guide (as none exists) or retains sets of coins to refer to for consistencies sake. How then has grading been done? Basically the grader looked at a coin and decided based on his experience and memory what grade it is, if he is not sure then a plethora of middle grade attachments and riders are introduced such as about Uncirculated, near to Very Fine, approaching EF, better than Fine, Good Very Fine, BU, Gem, Choice we could go on it seems almost endlessly. The CGS UK system arrives at a numeric grade between 1 and 100 with 100 being absolute perfection. It is not our intention to replace the traditional grading terminology (listed below) but it can easily be argued that once a numerical grade is attached the need for some additional narrative description is superfluous. However CGS UK numerical system will broadly translate as follows."

They then have a table which compares their grades and Sheldon grades.

I submit batches of 40 coins at a time ... not just to spread out the shipping fees

I cant tell you any levels of discount  , but I dont get the discount with smaller batches

I have coins that have been graded by both

I also have coins that have been graded by CGS and then those same coins cross graded by ANACS

I will post up a comparison of the cross grades in a sales thread, and I would be selling both CGS graded coins, and the cross graded coins (plus some coins just graded by ANACS). Be interesting to see what the market makes of them.

Future grading .... it would depend on demand. Likleyhood is that ANACS have become the defacto standard here. Thats why I did the cross grading, to show how the CGS graded coins compare, so that when selling / buying CGS graded coins, folks had a direct comparison with the ANACS graded coins out there. Obviously couldnt be a guarantee of the grading a CGS coin would recieve with ANACS if cross graded, but would be a good indicator of the quality of the coin to assist a sale, and provide reassurance for a buyer.

BUT ... if I had an ungraded coin, at this time, I would grade with ANACS, mainly because the community is more used to and can freely compare the ANACS coins.

How many coins does one generally need to submit to ANACS before they start to consider special/discounted rates?

A very quick response from ANACS

-Yes, we will include printing of first bits in the price of $19.  No need to add $7 attribution fee under this new tier. You will also notice there is not a minimum quantity.

-All physical cryptocurrencies are to be submitted under this new tier of service.  Modern and standard tiers are not applicable regardless of the view on tokens currently with or without digital currency.  It is cryptocurrency whether the private key is used or not.


-Any bulk rates should be discussed with ANACS directly.  The turnaround time is the same as the non-us standard tier, roughly 3-4 weeks.  $100 max value because we are grading the token in the condition it is in, not based on the digital currency.

-Customers are urged to use their best judgement regarding what is or isn’t appropriate to submit under this new tier.  We will review once the order is received and make adjustments if necessary.  I would direct them to Page 2 under Submitter Agreement on the left side.



So, hopefully that offers an improvement over $14 + $7 = $21 versus the $19, that will include attribution, and no need to get a batch of 5 together to recieve that rate. And provides clarification where needed.


I will keep an eye on the thread, and relay any further questions (and answers) to (and from) ANACS.

You are UK based. Would you use ANACS or Kent-based CGS?

Economy is normally 3 weeks

New prices add up when sending in bulk coins...


My last submission for an example - 5 x coins ($14 per coin + $7 per coin for first bits printed) = $21 per coin x 5 = $105 + shipping ($26) = $131


Now it will be 5 x coins ($19 per coin + $7 per coin for first bits printed) = $130 + return shipping ($26) = $156

The verification fee covers the cost of printing the first bits onto the slab - you need to do it. Yes I am going to be sending out a batch before they enforce it ASAP.


Here is an example form (.pdf) https://www.dropbox.com/s/mkcwqcr9cgi18ez/Example_Submissionform.pdf?dl=0

ANACS calls the first bits the serial #

What is the rough turnaround for about a dozen economy coins?

I guess everyone should get a last batch sent off before the new form hits.

Is it worth it to pay the $7 for verification per round? If we don't add that option, will the label include less info?

Easy enough to declare them a lower value - I already do that to save on shipping. I want to know if they will honor "economy" still.. The only nice thing is that non economy is a lot faster for the turn around time.

I have emailled them the questions here, and will let you know any responses I get

This is a great question, and I'd love to know ANACS' answer. How do they define "cryptocurrency?"

Technically, even the popular Casascius coins are simply tokens. After all, once the BTC is redeemed, the Casascius is no longer a wallet, but a mere collectible token [with the potential to become a wallet someday].

I wonder how ANACS views this?

Regards,
Me

Is there a general price point per coin that you would not submit a coin due to the fees of grading/mailing/insuring??

$20 per coin plus shipping/insuring seems to be a little pricey (also now that it seems they removed the batch pricing)

So the new form says for physical cryptos the max value is $100 per coin......   
This low price point per coin seems that most of the cryptos we would want graded will be excluded.
What category to select then??

And if the category is "cryptocurrency" would this exclude any coin that does not have an area/recess for a private key??
since anything without this available to make a "wallet" would be considered a token??

Just some questions....

Thanks

You can submit cryptocoins of any value ... you just state a max value of $100 per coin as far as insurance cover goes

Have they removed the economy options for grading bulk batches? If so we getting jacked for an extra $5 per coin! Used to be batches of 5+ got it for $14 + $7 per coin...now it is $19 + $7?

I have just recieved a new grading form from ANACS. They wont be publishing it on their website for a week or 2, but they have given me the green light to share here. Its been talked about for a little while, but it has finally happened.

Its a bit special, in that they are recognising the physical crypto coins as their own distinct category on the submission forms. Thats a real step forward in my eyes ... mainstream here we come 

I cant let it pass without restating what a shame it is that ANACS will give us our own section, but the forum wont. (Mods, please take note)

I have put a copy of the form on PDFy
https://pdf.yt/d/vA7tlh6CBIvV23PJ
You can download, or print straight from there

The ANACS office manager has said
"They decided to go with the verbiage of “Physical Cryptocurrency” instead of “Private tokens and medals”, however these are the changes we discussed previously.  Max value of $100 per token. The only additional change is a max submission value for international orders of $5000.  Meaning the total value for the entire submission is capped at $5000 in insurance value."

Any discounted rates negotiated previously will also be honoured. But having a 'base rate' of $19 is also positive for submitting lower numbers of coins

Please feel free to use this, share this, and reference it in any other threads. Lets get this form out to those of us who do submit coins, return some of the faith that ANACS have placed in physical crypto.

It will be really interesting to see if given this change by ANACS, if any of the other big grading organisations take note, and reconsider their stance wrt cryptocoins


Matthew / Elianite
If you need any contacts in ANACS, or an intro, let me know


ALSO ....

If anyone in Europe needs any coins grading, I am happy to put in with the coins I ship there. The shipping there and back is the killer internationally, so needs to be spread between as many coins as possible (I do batches of 40 to spread the cost, whilst keeping risk down).
(Just PM me)

Happy to help, if you need a hand

I have actually provided this service multiple times in the past (people shipped me their coins). If you guys want the forms filled out I will help you with it. Send me a PM with the coins you are having graded and I will make you an example form.

Send me the following:

Coin Type / year / face value / your fiat value of the coin  - Also some basic info for shipping (just either USA or not USA is all I need)

I will fill out a form for you.

I have started making my "how to grade crypto coin" thread - will post it soonish.

This is a good idea.
I know I have a few coins I want to submit and need a little help with the forms/mailing.

A thread could be started......

Does anyone pay for the $29 (flat fee per submission form) ANACS conservation option? Wondering if this is worth it or not.

Really looking forward to this. Thanks, Blazed!

Regards,
Christopher

I know for a fact that the hologram only comes into play if it has been removed. The grades depend strictly on the coin strike.

ANACS have an interesting Guide which explains how they grade coins. Of course, they do not mention anything about crypto-currency or holograms! They do state that, typically, the obverse of the coin is less important than the front. I suspect that this model cannot work for physical bitcoin since the front is not superior to the back.

Here is the Guide: http://www.anacs.com/PDFFiles/ANACS_Brochure.pdf (30 MB).

As I read the Guide, I thought that speaking with someone from ANACS would be useful. It's a great idea and I'll do it.

Sorry I keep meaning to do this for the community, but always forget too. I have talked with ANACS and they agreed to answer questions we had for them. I will make the thread this evening and lay it all out about grading.

This would be excellent

ANACS is in the US. And to my knowledge your list is correct. The challenge though is that ANACS is seen as a less reputable coin grading firm (although it's one of the oldest) compared to the others out there. I guess it doesn't matter much when they're one of two firms doing grading, or maybe their willingness to grade any crypto-coin reinforces the "less reputable" perception.

Some people swear that the hologram - it's condition, alignment on the coin, and the first bits alignment on the hologram (e.g., many on Casascius coins are crooked) - is not considered as part of the grade. I'm not convinced, given that these coins are rarely circulated so most would have a very high and same grade if not for variances in the hologram.

Maybe you could try to interview someone from ANACS to get a real understanding of how crypto-coin grading is perceived and conducted.

Good luck with the crypto-coin book!

ICG will grade these and a blind comparison showed that ANACS was comparable within 1 or 2 grades of ICG. I find ICG to be more consistent than ANACS (albeit on the higher end). Others here may disagree.

http://postimg.org/image/km5r29i2l/
http://postimg.org/image/wmr72zph9/
I can provide better pictures if needed.

ANACS seems to have become the accepted standard for physical coins. I have a few and wouldn't bother getting them graded elsewhere.

I guess it's the comparative rarity of the super high grades that drives the price rather than the grades themselves. 1 BTC silver coins with MS68 or above seem to have sold for a big percentage higher than the 65/66 coins have.

I'de like to formally introduce Matthew Rippon.

He is a Department Member of the Queens University of London, and is co-authoring the book which I am currently working on with him.

Mr. Rippon has gained a great interest in the physical crypto coin phenomenon, and contacted me to conduct an interview for an article he was writing for the International Journal of Entrepreneurship and Innovation. I have since had many discussions with him about the subject, to the point that he accepted my invitation to co-author the book which is an extension of my first work; The Casascius Guide.

As an up and coming academic, he has been conducting a thorough analysis of everything involving physical crypto coins, and will no doubt be asking many questions. With Matthew's, the book is being transformed from a simple catalogue to an intriguing work analysing the ideas, values, culture, and community behind the physical crypto coin phenomena and forming various theories about it.

Please, take a look at the book's sale thread at https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/paperback-encyclopedia-of-physical-bitcoins-and-crypto-currencies-1022071
Up to 100 physical copies will be printed, numbered, signed, and shipped to those with a reserved pre-order!

I'm sure everyone will find Matthew highly interesting to discuss the subject with.

ANACS will grade almost anything, including Crypto Imperator and Microsoul:



My sales thread:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/closed-casascius-lealana-cryptoimperator-vericoin-maxcoin-antaui-1120743

AFAIK, they are the only reputable companies that will grade physical crypto coins. You should get it graded by ANACS though as they are much more reputable.
No clue. Blazedout419 probably knows.

I know that Mitchell sent emails to both last week and my understanding was essentially that they do not grade those coins.

No however it would be possible that it would be a fake and the buyer may give additional scrutiny.
A higher grade means the coin is in better condition. Better condition coins would naturally be in higher demand and coins become more rare as their condition approaches perfect condition (lower supply). Basic economics would imply that this mean prices would increase as the grade increases.
Yes, however AFAIK no casascius coins have ever gotten a MS70 grade. I know that a lot of OgNasty's nasty fans coins have gotten very high grades, several MS68 and MS69 I believe. I would not be surprised if a MS70 pops up sometime.

I have a few questions for those who are knowledgeable about the grading process.

Which companies grade crypto-coins? ANACS does and CGS in the UK but who else?

I understand that PCGS and ICG have refused to grade crypto-coins. Did they provide a rationale?

Would people grade coins from, say, Crypto Imperator or Microsoul?

Would you be suspicious if a Casascius coin came up for re-sale and had not been graded?

What difference does the grade make to the re-sale price? For example, what
would a rise from MS-63 to MS-66 achieve? Or from MS-67 to MS-68. Would a
Casascius MS-70 sell for vastly more than an MS-69?

Is it possible to receive an MS-70 grade?

Thanks!

Matthew