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Topic: Grayscale Buys 800% More Bitcoin Compared to Q1 2019 - page 2. (Read 997 times)

legendary
Activity: 1806
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Are you ready? @Grayscale's national ad campaign kicks off next week with a TV ad on CNBC, MSNBC, FOX, and FOX Business. We're going to brrring crypto to the masses

Source https://twitter.com/barrysilbert/status/1291710737291841543

Well I sure hope they don't buy into GBTC with its atrocious 2% management fee. Roll Eyes

Not to mention a dangerous premium that will decline as more regulated options come on board.

I'm looking forward to the launch of Wilshire Phoenix's BTC fund. It'll have a 0.9% management fee and unlike GBTC, it will actually offer a redemption program to keep prices pegged to spot. https://cointelegraph.com/news/exclusive-wilshire-differentiates-its-fund-from-grayscale-says-investors-deserve-more

This actually smells a bit like Barry's exit pump. Tongue
legendary
Activity: 2912
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Don't take this as a proof that price will riae strongly. The fact that some financial institution is buying Bitcoin doesn't have to mean anything. Besides they can also nake wrong estimation. What I want to say is that the news like that shouldn't be the ground for your decision whether to buy or sell.
legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 1492
It appears that Barry Silbert's wallets are full. He will begin step 2 next week. The mainstream media hype and pump campaign hehehe.

Where is Tom Lee hehe.



Are you ready? @Grayscale's national ad campaign kicks off next week with a TV ad on CNBC, MSNBC, FOX, and FOX Business. We're going to brrring crypto to the masses

Source https://twitter.com/barrysilbert/status/1291710737291841543
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
I took a closer look at the GBTC chart vs. BTCUSD and noticed the GBTC premium has been falling quite a bit recently. It's dropped in half since February alongside these big inflows.

I think there is increasing pressure to arbitrage the GBTC price. Even given the 1-year lockup period, a 30% premium (that's what it was at the Febuary peak) is just ridiculous not to arbitrage in a market with increasing regulated options at lower carry costs.

As one example, institutions could short GBTC while it's trading at a huge premium while buying shares at a discount (the NAV price) during private placements.

If this explains the increased volume, then we can probably expect the volume to die down (and maybe Grayscale's overall holdings to decrease as well) once the premium is no longer worth arbitraging.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/what-does-grayscales-gbtc-falling-premium-tell-us-about-bitcoin-price

I've been struggling to find an explanation since GBTC is so unattractive as an investment with its ridiculous premiums and 2% management fee. This is the best I can come up with.
hero member
Activity: 3164
Merit: 675
www.Crypto.Games: Multiple coins, multiple games
This is OTC we are talking about, we could NEVER learn how much is going on, so we can't even make a guess or a prediction about what would happen if it was online and on places like coinbase or something that we could see. OTC will be done because lets face it these companies are dealing with too much money and if they didn't used OTC for it they would have disturbed the market a ton.

Think about grayscale actually buying from coinbase which means they are buying from you and me, they would increase the price a ton when buying and would have to buy for more money, this way they could pay the market price and a bit more maybe to buy tens of millions of dollars without changing the price at all. It is all a sensitive subject that has to be hidden from the market until after it is done.
legendary
Activity: 2590
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Welt Am Draht
One thing I didn't bother to check is who is buying all their GBTC shares.

This is slightly old but gives an idea - https://medium.com/grayscale-investments/strongest-quarter-ever-81035e384ee6

84% of inflows has been primarily from hedge funds. On one hand that's cool that institutional interest is rising, on the other many will be clueless and twitchy bitches who'll run for the door given half the chance. That delay in selling might stop that but that level of their involvement could be a double edged sword.
legendary
Activity: 3234
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Update; Greyscale are not slowing down as they have accumulated 9,503 more bitcoins since the most recent report, this is also more than the amount of bitcoins mined within that period. At an average rate of 10 minutes per block; 6,300BTC gets mined each week.

Some would say, an incredible appetite for Bitcoin by Grayscale, and also raises the question of how long they will continue at this rate of investment? What is certainly in their favor is the possibility of OTC purchase, because as we see it almost has no effect on the price. What many are interested in is how big the OTC market actually is, and this is certainly not a question that has any exact answer.

According to some research from 2018 by Bloomberg, daily crypto OTC market was "anywhere between $250 million and $30 billion per day", and volume on exchanges was $15 billion. If this is somewhat true, then the OTC bag is quite deep and Grayscale and similar investors have a great opportunity to buy large quantities of BTC without directly affecting the price. Who knows, maybe they've been doing it for years, as some have speculated.
legendary
Activity: 2590
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Welt Am Draht
To get some clarity, are you suggesting that OTC trades limits the trades that otherwise would have happened on the open market, and the volume being bought by Grayscale, would take up most of the OTC stash driving other than that who would have purchased over the counter to the open market?

Yes. If the OTC market didn't exist at all all of these people would be on exchanges.

We have no idea how big the OTC market is so there's no way of knowing how much availability Grayscale are hogging, but it must be a significant uptick compared to the past. I don't remember them buying this furiously in the past.

Sometimes there just isn't enough OTC to go round. Available supply is finite. Most of it has to be prised out of someone who already owns it. Sometimes you'll have to go to an exchange no matter what if you're hungry to buy.
legendary
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To get some clarity, are you suggesting that OTC trades limits the trades that otherwise would have happened on the open market, and the volume being bought by Grayscale, would take up most of the OTC stash driving other than that who would have purchased over the counter to the open market?
legendary
Activity: 2590
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Welt Am Draht
This trades happen OTC, so there's no significant impact on the market price, but as Greyscale continues to add to their Bitcoin AUM, this could attract other institutional investments?

It's impossible to quantify but there will be an effect. OTC means open market trades that otherwise would've happened don't. And the volume of Grayscale's buying means other would-be OTC buyers have to go to the open market as they've been driven to it.
legendary
Activity: 2114
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Update; Greyscale are not slowing down as they have accumulated 9,503 more bitcoins since the most recent report, this is also more than the amount of bitcoins mined within that period. At an average rate of 10 minutes per block; 6,300BTC gets mined each week.



This trades happen OTC, so there's no significant impact on the market price, but as Greyscale continues to add to their Bitcoin AUM, this could attract other institutional investments?
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1693
C.D.P.E.M
Grayscale is buying Bitcoin at the current market value and has no regards with having a margin of safety in their orders? Can this mean something? Like are we headed into a big pump that is why they are confident at buying at these levels? Or are they buying all of these in a participation of a short so they can profit more all the way down? Either way these news about them buying more than the currently new mined BTC doesn't give us a straight answer on what the future price will be for Bitcoin since we don't even know how Grayscale will play out their current Bitcoin holdings.
There is no guarantee that the price of bitcoin would rally because some financial institute is investing in bitcoin thinking that the price would rally. I bet there are other financial investors investing in bitcoin whenever the price goes down thinking that they could make a huge profit when the price rallies.
These investments are not meant to hold the coins for a decade and they only want to book the profit when the price rallies.

All they need to achieve is a cool +10% and they have achieved their yearly target.
Don't you think that all the btc purchases done by greyscale now ($9-$9.6k) won't be counterbalanced by the price of BTC being $10-10.5k in the next 3 to  6 months?
Allowing them to sell their assets and make their yearly target.

They are an investment company, they invest to make money, not to change the world.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1023
Grayscale is buying Bitcoin at the current market value and has no regards with having a margin of safety in their orders? Can this mean something? Like are we headed into a big pump that is why they are confident at buying at these levels? Or are they buying all of these in a participation of a short so they can profit more all the way down? Either way these news about them buying more than the currently new mined BTC doesn't give us a straight answer on what the future price will be for Bitcoin since we don't even know how Grayscale will play out their current Bitcoin holdings.
There is no guarantee that the price of bitcoin would rally because some financial institute is investing in bitcoin thinking that the price would rally. I bet there are other financial investors investing in bitcoin whenever the price goes down thinking that they could make a huge profit when the price rallies.
These investments are not meant to hold the coins for a decade and they only want to book the profit when the price rallies.
legendary
Activity: 2884
Merit: 1117
At what price you buy bitcoin doesn't matter to you when you are doing so well with the bitcoin returns. They do not care about the current price, this is an investment company and all they care about is increasing their revenue by having multiple investments, grayscale is not buying bitcoin alone, they are buying many things, they are trying to profit as much as they can so bitcoin will keep on being on their list and they are going to buy more and more of it to profit more in the future. Look at all the hedge funds, as soon as they find something they like they end up buying a bunch of it.

Long term investment is much much more important for these type of companies, they want to make a profit in 10 years, not tomorrow. So, there is a big difference between them and regular traders/investors like us.
hero member
Activity: 1806
Merit: 672
Grayscale is buying Bitcoin at the current market value and has no regards with having a margin of safety in their orders? Can this mean something? Like are we headed into a big pump that is why they are confident at buying at these levels? Or are they buying all of these in a participation of a short so they can profit more all the way down? Either way these news about them buying more than the currently new mined BTC doesn't give us a straight answer on what the future price will be for Bitcoin since we don't even know how Grayscale will play out their current Bitcoin holdings.
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3015
Welt Am Draht
This may be just speculation, but it makes sense if we think logically, although the idea of reverse transactions is something that most today would not accept when it comes to Bitcoin. Obviously, it will no longer be just a question of investing in BTC, but also of verifying the origin of such coins.

If that takes hold then Bitcoin is dead meat.

I can imagine 100% radioactive coins are nothing but a liability but they already are. I can imagine totally virgin coins will have a placebo premium for some and they already do. Anything beyond those two extremes rapidly becomes totally unworkable.

I'm sure some will attempt this. They ain't getting far and everyone will truck past them.
legendary
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The halving changes the OTC landscape too. OTC buyers who previously bought from miners will be squeezed and will have to look elsewhere. Miners who previously dumped on exchanges, and there must have been a few, will find OTC buyers seeking them out. I expect far fewer mined coins will reach the open market from now on. There's no need.

Yet perhaps this is about creating a market of different Bitcoins in terms of their values based on their past. Perhaps the Grayscale realized that not all BTCs will be the same value in the future, and that some will not actually be usable anywhere else except on the black market. It is common knowledge that Virgin Bitcoins are sold at premium prices, which definitely suits the miners who have the exclusive right to them. I read an interesting qualification (speculation) about how Bitcoin could be classified into 4 categories by price, but also by how it can actually be used.

In the future, chain analysis companies and automated services would be able to classify coins (UTXOs) in several categories:

2% of all Bitcoins: black - located on, or several hops away from a known darknet/blacklisted address. These could be spent at black markets only. Exchanges and banks would immediately freeze these coins at deposit, and open an investigation with authorities.

40% of all Bitcoins: gray - coins of untraceable origin, assumed to be mixed. Extreme KYC/KCOYC/AML vetting will be required to trade or sell these coins in the "normal" world. Legally operating merchants in some countries would need to ID you before accepting payment.

55% of all Bitcoins: white - coins with a fully traceable origin, right from the moment they were mined or bought from a KYC/AML exchange. In the distant future, owning whitelisted coins would allow nation-states to practice "legal ownership" laws by forcing miners to accept only transactions signed by a trusted (central) bank. You'd be able to reverse an illegal tx, same way you can now reverse a Visa or PayPal transaction.

3% of all Bitcoins: virgin - coins with zero transactions. These would be used as collectibles or as monetary reserves in case Bitcoin replaces physical gold.

This may be just speculation, but it makes sense if we think logically, although the idea of reverse transactions is something that most today would not accept when it comes to Bitcoin. Obviously, it will no longer be just a question of investing in BTC, but also of verifying the origin of such coins.
legendary
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I totally don't see the connection. This is nothing about Grayscale buying bitcoin to manipulate the markets, this is just to show you how much 1 entity buys bitcoin. Theoretically, if everybody held and nobody sold, even if Grayscale were to mine all the bitcoins on their own it would be enough to meet the demand they have. THIS is what the title's trying to say.
Don't misquote my reply. I was responding to @adaseb who was asking why there has not been any increase in the price if the demand for bitcoins is increasing. I wasn't suggesting that Greyscale we're attempting to manipulate the market, nor did I comment on their intentions.
legendary
Activity: 2590
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Welt Am Draht
This is a really interesting story, not only that someone buys large quantities of BTC, but that they currently buys more than is actually produced. But the key thing is that they do it of course through OTC, and that it still does not affect the quantities available on the market, so there is no price pumping.

The halving changes the OTC landscape too. OTC buyers who previously bought from miners will be squeezed and will have to look elsewhere. Miners who previously dumped on exchanges, and there must have been a few, will find OTC buyers seeking them out. I expect far fewer mined coins will reach the open market from now on. There's no need.

It's going to add up eventually and in a significant way. A bitcoin with a giant and urgent electricity bill attached to it is a lot easier to prise out of an owner's hands than one they bought some time ago.
legendary
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Well bitcoin was lower and in q1 of 2019 it wasn't doing all that well, we didn't know what is going to happen and price was around 3-4 thousand dollars, nowadays the price was high but went down because of the pandemic and became very cheap, they probably saw what everyone else saw and bought when it was cheeping hoping it would go up, they were right in the end because it did went up.

The point is not to buy that much during the q1, it is to do the same at q2 and q3 and q4 as well, will they continue to buy forever and have more bitcoins, or will they simply be doing this for more short term profits. If I see them selling bitcoin just because it went up and just taking profit and going away, that wouldn't really make the increase in buying valuable to us, but if they do end up buying more on other quarters as well that would be lovely.
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