Greece has made an important concession

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: aso118 on June 18, 2015, 08:51:08 PM

With the world being much more integrated than in the past, the impact of a Greek crisis will be felt across the world, from Africa to Asia. If global financial institutions can affect the world, the impact of the economy of a country collapsing will be much more. Everybody, not just Greek citizens, will pay for the sins of the Greek politicians.

The impact will be limited to some extent, outside the Europe. But if Greece defaults, then the tax payers in countries such as Germany, Italy and Spain will suffer quite a lot. Some €56 billion is owed to Germany alone, which comes to around €2,800 per German family. If Greece refuses to pay back its debt, someone else will have to pay it. And it won't be the Goldman Sucks or other bankers.

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Quote from: manselr on June 18, 2015, 12:35:50 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I think it is worth repeating over and over the extent to which the Greek economy is still heavily regulated and under state control. Tax collections are down, major portions of the economy are constrained by idiotic bureaucracy and inefficiency, and the labor market remains largely unreformed, as do state pensions.

The problem is that de-regulation and privatization are often painful enough under normal economic conditions, but will lead to catastrophic conditions in a debt crisis that Greece is in. The Greek people do not seem to appreciate the degree to which their own leaders and capital class have screwed the future of the country, by failing to modernize and revitalize the Greek economy when more headroom for change was available. It seems now that only a major economic collapse, much worse than what we have seen to date, is in store for Greece, sadly.

With the world being much more integrated than in the past, the impact of a Greek crisis will be felt across the world, from Africa to Asia. If global financial institutions can affect the world, the impact of the economy of a country collapsing will be much more. Everybody, not just Greek citizens, will pay for the sins of the Greek politicians.

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Quote from: manselr on June 18, 2015, 12:35:50 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I think it is worth repeating over and over the extent to which the Greek economy is still heavily regulated and under state control. Tax collections are down, major portions of the economy are constrained by idiotic bureaucracy and inefficiency, and the labor market remains largely unreformed, as do state pensions.

The problem is that de-regulation and privatization are often painful enough under normal economic conditions, but will lead to catastrophic conditions in a debt crisis that Greece is in. The Greek people do not seem to appreciate the degree to which their own leaders and capital class have screwed the future of the country, by failing to modernize and revitalize the Greek economy when more headroom for change was available. It seems now that only a major economic collapse, much worse than what we have seen to date, is in store for Greece, sadly.

Absolutely, when you have cancer, the longer you wait before getting treatment, the more difficult and the longer the cure. Sometimes, the patient dies because it's too late.

manselr

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I think it is worth repeating over and over the extent to which the Greek economy is still heavily regulated and under state control. Tax collections are down, major portions of the economy are constrained by idiotic bureaucracy and inefficiency, and the labor market remains largely unreformed, as do state pensions.

The problem is that de-regulation and privatization are often painful enough under normal economic conditions, but will lead to catastrophic conditions in a debt crisis that Greece is in. The Greek people do not seem to appreciate the degree to which their own leaders and capital class have screwed the future of the country, by failing to modernize and revitalize the Greek economy when more headroom for change was available. It seems now that only a major economic collapse, much worse than what we have seen to date, is in store for Greece, sadly.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: bigtimespaghetti on June 18, 2015, 08:02:41 AM

These charts are excellent at demonstrating the untenable position Greece finds itself in. I have a feeling that the result may surprise us normies though- just think that they have managed to kick the can this far. I just hope that Greece can benefit from whatever ultimately happens.

There are very few scenarios in which the Greeks can actually benefit. For example, if the troika agrees to forgive a part of the Greek debt, the Greek economy will receive a very significant boost. Another scenario is the extension of the deadline. But such scenarios are looking more and more unlikely now, as the talks are breaking down.

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 17, 2015, 09:25:23 PM

Quote from: erre on June 16, 2015, 11:10:11 AM

Tax collection and corruption are cultural problem, you can't resolve them so easly. There are no ways Greece could be able to pay back its debts in a reasonable time (like, say, a century). The only matter is if having influence on Greece is worth the money. Putin is waiting.

Their economy is in ruins. So the tax revenues are just a fraction of what it was earlier. And as of now, the net debt stands at $352.7 billion (to foreign investors). At the most, they might be able to pay back $2 billion per year. And at this rate, it will take around 180 years to make the full payment (given that the interest rates are written off).

These charts are excellent at demonstrating the untenable position Greece finds itself in. I have a feeling that the result may surprise us normies though- just think that they have managed to kick the can this far. I just hope that Greece can benefit from whatever ultimately happens.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: erre on June 16, 2015, 11:10:11 AM

Tax collection and corruption are cultural problem, you can't resolve them so easly. There are no ways Greece could be able to pay back its debts in a reasonable time (like, say, a century). The only matter is if having influence on Greece is worth the money. Putin is waiting.

Their economy is in ruins. So the tax revenues are just a fraction of what it was earlier. And as of now, the net debt stands at $352.7 billion (to foreign investors). At the most, they might be able to pay back $2 billion per year. And at this rate, it will take around 180 years to make the full payment (given that the interest rates are written off).

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See this link to understand why image is relevant :

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html

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erre

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Tax collection and corruption are cultural problem, you can't resolve them so easly. There are no ways Greece could be able to pay back its debts in a reasonable time (like, say, a century). The only matter is if having influence on Greece is worth the money. Putin is waiting.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: yayayo on June 16, 2015, 04:31:02 AM

Apart from that - do you think that all countries in the world should base their home affairs and legislation on the possibility that Greek tax evaders might profit from it? Don't you think, that it's Greece's responsibility to collect their own taxes?

The Greeks are trying their best to collect the taxes. But tax heavens around the world are offering help to the tax evaders, so that they could move the funds out of Greece undetected by the authorities. I find it ironical, that the British go ballistic when their citizens indulge in tax evasion, and at the same time, take no action when foreign tax evaders bring that money to the UK.

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 15, 2015, 04:04:44 AM

Quote from: qiwoman2 on June 14, 2015, 12:53:53 AM

The problem is Greece had too many rich tax evaders and greedy politicians in both PASOK and the New Democracy party and the loas Greece was borrowing were high interest loans which Germany is making a huge profit from, yet war reparations have not been paid back to Greece.

If all the money hidden abroad by the tax evaders are brought back to Greece, that alone would be sufficient to prevent the loan default. But unfortunately, the same nations which are demanding loan payments from Greece (esp. the United Kingdom and Germany) are the ones who are heliping these tax evaders to launder their ill-earned money.

The idea that we can end tax evasion and using that surplus of money that would come after evading all of it would save a country delusional at best. The people with the real money is always going to be able to move their money outside the country and store it wherever they want. The only way to stop tax evasion among the ones that should be paying the most (the mega rich) is by establishing a global tax so there's nowhere to hide, but that is again an utopia.

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 15, 2015, 10:56:52 AM

Quote from: yayayo on June 15, 2015, 09:13:14 AM

What kind of theory is that? How are the UK and Germany helping in money laundering?

Well, let me focus on the United Kingdom. London is widely known as the money laundering capital of the world. London is the preferred destination for members of the Italian mafia, Russian oligarchs, Chinese criminals and all sort of shady characters around the world to launder their money. Also, many of the British dependencies, such as the Channel Islands, Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Anguilla, UK Virgin Islands, and the Turks and Caicos Islands are heavens for money launderers. I am 100% sure that the Greek criminals must have used the facilities available in the UK, to launder their money.

So you have no arguments that back your claim that Germany is helping Greek tax evaders to launder money.

Also, the things you've brought up in regard to the UK do also not support your claim that the UK is helping with money laundering. Just because criminals prefer to go somewhere does not mean that government supports them. And having a more liberal taxation regime is not a crime. Apart from that - do you think that all countries in the world should base their home affairs and legislation on the possibility that Greek tax evaders might profit from it? Don't you think, that it's Greece's responsibility to collect their own taxes?

ya.ya.yo!

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: yayayo on June 15, 2015, 09:13:14 AM

What kind of theory is that? How are the UK and Germany helping in money laundering?

Well, let me focus on the United Kingdom. London is widely known as the money laundering capital of the world. London is the preferred destination for members of the Italian mafia, Russian oligarchs, Chinese criminals and all sort of shady characters around the world to launder their money. Also, many of the British dependencies, such as the Channel Islands, Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Anguilla, UK Virgin Islands, and the Turks and Caicos Islands are heavens for money launderers. I am 100% sure that the Greek criminals must have used the facilities available in the UK, to launder their money.

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 15, 2015, 04:04:44 AM

Quote from: qiwoman2 on June 14, 2015, 12:53:53 AM

The problem is Greece had too many rich tax evaders and greedy politicians in both PASOK and the New Democracy party and the loas Greece was borrowing were high interest loans which Germany is making a huge profit from, yet war reparations have not been paid back to Greece.

If all the money hidden abroad by the tax evaders are brought back to Greece, that alone would be sufficient to prevent the loan default. But unfortunately, the same nations which are demanding loan payments from Greece (esp. the United Kingdom and Germany) are the ones who are heliping these tax evaders to launder their ill-earned money.

What kind of theory is that? How are the UK and Germany helping in money laundering?

If Greece had a working tax collection system, these problems would never have occurred. But corruption is widespread in Greece, public administration is inefficient and bureaucracy is excessive.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

ya.ya.yo!

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: qiwoman2 on June 14, 2015, 12:53:53 AM

The problem is Greece had too many rich tax evaders and greedy politicians in both PASOK and the New Democracy party and the loas Greece was borrowing were high interest loans which Germany is making a huge profit from, yet war reparations have not been paid back to Greece.

If all the money hidden abroad by the tax evaders are brought back to Greece, that alone would be sufficient to prevent the loan default. But unfortunately, the same nations which are demanding loan payments from Greece (esp. the United Kingdom and Germany) are the ones who are heliping these tax evaders to launder their ill-earned money.

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Quote from: tyz on June 13, 2015, 07:46:01 AM

Greece will never reduce its wasteful spending as long as it is part of the Euro Zone. That's why I think it is much better for both sides to leave the Eurozone (not the EU). Greece will have two three hard years but then their new currency will affect a economy boost. Greece will never make this within the Eurozone.

Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 13, 2015, 04:48:35 AM

Trust me, getting out of the European Union will not solve Greece's problems. On the other hand, it will only exacerbate them. First of all, the Greeks needs to reduce wasteful spending, and prevent corruption. They also need to find new revenue sources, such as the transit fees from the Russian-backed Turkish Stream project.

I don't think there's a single european politician that want's to see Greece leave the Eurozone. It would be a catastrophe, not because of Greece leaving, but because once one leaves, a chain reaction can begin, which would probably continue with Italy and Spain, two countries really screwed within the Eurozone and Merkel's austerity policies.

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Quote from: qiwoman2 on June 14, 2015, 12:53:53 AM

The problem is Greece had too many rich tax evaders and greedy politicians in both PASOK and the New Democracy party and the loas Greece was borrowing were high interest loans which Germany is making a huge profit from, yet war reparations have not been paid back to Greece.

Sorry, but that's largely untrue. All parties are greedy in different ways. Greece totally failed to collect even basic taxes due to inefficient bureaucracy and widespread corruption. Germany (and others) lend money to them at reduced rates (not at market rate) - these lenders already took significant losses after the first debt conversion. Now Greece is bringing war reparations on the table which have been amicably resolved since decades, because the hundreds of billions already paid weren't enough...

Quote from: qiwoman2 on June 14, 2015, 12:53:53 AM

Having said the above, the Greeks need to become more self disciplined and conscientious in both Governance and Business, give back to their country instead of taking it all out to swiss banks and drive the economy themselves..They don't need the EU to bail them out..but they need political and moral will to get out of this mess..

That's true, leaving the EU and Euro would be the best solution for them. With drachmae at a value that reflects their economic standing they will have a far better chance to compete on international markets.

Quote from: qiwoman2 on June 14, 2015, 12:53:53 AM

Most of my cousins over there are living off their mum's very low pensions because they can't get jobs..so forget about LOW WAGES..there simply aren't even any wages for 60% of the youth. The Troika, the wealthy greeks and political corruption killed the Greek economy, so time for a change..and at present the only hope is SYRIZA.. I sent a message to Varoufakis about creating a digital currency..and creating cooperatives and get half the population out of the big cities and back into the countryside..

That's socialist propaganda - instead of taking fortune into their own hands Greeks are whining for government to help them. What Greece needs is entrepreneurship, not self-pity.

ya.ya.yo!

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The problem is Greece had too many rich tax evaders and greedy politicians in both PASOK and the New Democracy party and the loas Greece was borrowing were high interest loans which Germany is making a huge profit from, yet war reparations have not been paid back to Greece.

Having said the above, the Greeks need to become more self disciplined and conscientious in both Governance and Business, give back to their country instead of taking it all out to swiss banks and drive the economy themselves..They don't need the EU to bail them out..but they need political and moral will to get out of this mess..

Most of my cousins over there are living off their mum's very low pensions because they can't get jobs..so forget about LOW WAGES..there simply aren't even any wages for 60% of the youth. The Troika, the wealthy greeks and political corruption killed the Greek economy, so time for a change..and at present the only hope is SYRIZA.. I sent a message to Varoufakis about creating a digital currency..and creating cooperatives and get half the population out of the big cities and back into the countryside..

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on June 12, 2015, 04:59:14 AM

Quote from: NUFCrichard on June 12, 2015, 03:55:11 AM

2. seems unworkable, they can't be a far poorer country with lots of debt, but continue to have richer country wages and pensions that are being phased out everywhere.

Already they have been forced to reduce the wages and the pensions many times in the past, which is pushing vulnerable sections of the population, such as the elderly towards extreme poverty. And why should the pensioners agree to transfer their pension funds to Goldman Sachs? They had worked hard in the past, to qualify for the pensions.

I back Bryant on this, does seem very harsh upon the pensioners, it's unfair to disregard the elderly population.
And about debt restructuring, sound like something interesting, but hard to imagine that happening.

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the think is several countries entered on the euro zone without being allowed by the rules they set like the debit of the country not pass over 1% Portugal when entered has around 3,4%of the pib in debit... and they joined the same way a country with all requirements had enter... the cost of things doubled on the change of the coin atleast in Portugal the product i paid before were 0.40 euros (converted)and after euro in 2004 year the same thing were just at 0,80 euro soo the governments accepted it soo easy ,its europe a dream coming true.... bla bla bla you will trade easy sell easy they sold a dream coin that currently isnt such those dream..... greece lives from turist money.... the main resorce is turism.... soo they really need to get out or readjust their economy and their bills.... otherwise a nightmare will happen on Greece that some citizens think already getting .... earn 30000 euros from an retirement is just a fucking joke...... those is insane and insustentable on medium time that happened already ...

Topic: Greece has made an important concession (Read 2704 times)