Perhaps tangentially of interest: The Open Source Block Erupter Project
good find...now that would be something great to start off with
Topic: [Group Buy #5] ASIC chip design funded by the people keep BTC decentralized (Read 3069 times)
June 06, 2014, 05:03:01 PM
good find...now that would be something great to start off with
June 06, 2014, 01:12:11 PM
Perhaps tangentially of interest: The Open Source Block Erupter Project
May 24, 2014, 01:15:09 PM
What you are saying is that any software offered today requires rented time on actual hardware with minimum usage amounts? That is going to be tough to work around. The beauty of a project like this would have been to basically design the hardware in sections and a few key people putting it all together.
What i mean is that the foundry, for example, TSMC has design rules. Only when you follow these design rules a chip can be produced. It was simple with older nm ASICs. One could create the logic and later make the chip so that it can be produced by following the rules. Now you cant do that at the end only anymore. You need the design software all the time while developing because the materials and tech to produce the conductor pathes are so vulnerable that a following production step could hurt everything. So the design software has to check all the time while developing if the production process will work with it.
So the difference is that you now need the expensive design software all the time. If you want production tech that uses very small process nodes that arent really standard yet it gets even more complicated and so on.
I dont believe that its possible to create a competitive chip now anymore. If you go to develop 40-28nm then it takes so long to develop that the costs and the development of the bitcoin network will bring everything down to rubbish. We thought about building an ASIC that is partly old process node but partly a very low process node. So that the critical calculations can be done very fast. But that wont work too. Its possible to create such process nodes but the price is not reasonable. And to develop the tech you need design software and rules that have to be developed first. So there are enough problems even when there would be the funds to the machines to create the wafers on your own.
So we stopped thinking about developing ourself a half year ago. Bitcoin is way too fast that there could be a chance to make that successfully. I dont see a way how this could be done. And that not even takes into account the risks like non working chips, boards and so on.
I believe this "Asic Goldrush" is over for developers. A couple made it, more failed and some even scammed. I might be wrong though of course. Im no professional, i only sat together with some others, called design software sellers and producer for machines that can be used for creating wafers yourself. All in order to check out all ways possible to raise the chances for a profit at the end.
May 24, 2014, 04:16:25 AM
Yes of course doeant need to bw the lowest nm chip . Beacause a 40nm chip will have good power to hash ratio amdain thing well get it at cost.
May 23, 2014, 09:45:41 PM
These tools costs very much money. Even renting them. And when you want something thats not really standard yet you need to work together with the software developer so they can fix every problem when it happens.
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed. That means you would have to sit together with TSMC, cadence and work together. Because the software isnt ready. The steps in between has to be finetuned all the way between all parts. He claimed its nothing like it was with 300nm once. There are no geometrical rules anymore. You have to have the rules not only in the last step, you need the rules all the time developing from the first step because the design has to be proofed from the start designing and is checked with every step done creating the design. Otherwise you could include your design into design software to check the foundry rules are applied. Thats not possible with low process nodes anymore. You need the software for developing.
Renting low process node development software costs 70,000€ - 80,000€ for a half year for analog and starts from 800,000€ for digital ASICs. Thats renting alone.
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed. That means you would have to sit together with TSMC, cadence and work together. Because the software isnt ready. The steps in between has to be finetuned all the way between all parts. He claimed its nothing like it was with 300nm once. There are no geometrical rules anymore. You have to have the rules not only in the last step, you need the rules all the time developing from the first step because the design has to be proofed from the start designing and is checked with every step done creating the design. Otherwise you could include your design into design software to check the foundry rules are applied. Thats not possible with low process nodes anymore. You need the software for developing.
Renting low process node development software costs 70,000€ - 80,000€ for a half year for analog and starts from 800,000€ for digital ASICs. Thats renting alone.
I have used software like Cadence in the past to design my own ICC in the past. If the software isn't ready for 14nm, and the manufacturing process isn't even ready, then that more or less means we should look at manufacturing process that does have software ready.
In your research how is the software like Cadence licensed now that geometrical rules are no longer used. My experience involved those rules, the software was easy enough to learn. You started with the basic and worked your way up. The major problem I see is unless you can spread the actual work around, have different design tasks, that this would be a ton of work for a small group of people.
What we have going for us is the fact we have an overal idea of the design itself. We know how both SHA256 and SCRYPT. All we have to do is figure out which ICCs ( AND, OR, NOT ) and in what combination to implement the design. Everything we need to implement can be implemented using those three operations.
I forget the name of the software I used, it might have even been Cadence, this was back in 2008 and it ran on Linux. The version of the software itself was note even current. What we designed was actually manufactured at the end of the project.
The geometrical rules are for the production process in the foundry. But with the last tech its somewhat more complicated since its not simple things like the minimum placeholder, the software has to simulate the production process with each step you do in the creating process because otherwise the materials could bring out unwanted results. At least thats how i understood it.
What you are saying is that any software offered today requires rented time on actual hardware with minimum usage amounts? That is going to be tough to work around. The beauty of a project like this would have been to basically design the hardware in sections and a few key people putting it all together.
well what mm chip we aiming for? does it have to be the lowest? can't we start at a higher mm...maybe we'll get lucky n produce an even better chip
May 23, 2014, 09:35:13 PM
awww, but you asked about ICs, not about logic gates *pout* 
I don't see a difference to be honest.
May 23, 2014, 09:34:34 PM
These tools costs very much money. Even renting them. And when you want something thats not really standard yet you need to work together with the software developer so they can fix every problem when it happens.
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed. That means you would have to sit together with TSMC, cadence and work together. Because the software isnt ready. The steps in between has to be finetuned all the way between all parts. He claimed its nothing like it was with 300nm once. There are no geometrical rules anymore. You have to have the rules not only in the last step, you need the rules all the time developing from the first step because the design has to be proofed from the start designing and is checked with every step done creating the design. Otherwise you could include your design into design software to check the foundry rules are applied. Thats not possible with low process nodes anymore. You need the software for developing.
Renting low process node development software costs 70,000€ - 80,000€ for a half year for analog and starts from 800,000€ for digital ASICs. Thats renting alone.
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed. That means you would have to sit together with TSMC, cadence and work together. Because the software isnt ready. The steps in between has to be finetuned all the way between all parts. He claimed its nothing like it was with 300nm once. There are no geometrical rules anymore. You have to have the rules not only in the last step, you need the rules all the time developing from the first step because the design has to be proofed from the start designing and is checked with every step done creating the design. Otherwise you could include your design into design software to check the foundry rules are applied. Thats not possible with low process nodes anymore. You need the software for developing.
Renting low process node development software costs 70,000€ - 80,000€ for a half year for analog and starts from 800,000€ for digital ASICs. Thats renting alone.
I have used software like Cadence in the past to design my own ICC in the past. If the software isn't ready for 14nm, and the manufacturing process isn't even ready, then that more or less means we should look at manufacturing process that does have software ready.
In your research how is the software like Cadence licensed now that geometrical rules are no longer used. My experience involved those rules, the software was easy enough to learn. You started with the basic and worked your way up. The major problem I see is unless you can spread the actual work around, have different design tasks, that this would be a ton of work for a small group of people.
What we have going for us is the fact we have an overal idea of the design itself. We know how both SHA256 and SCRYPT. All we have to do is figure out which ICCs ( AND, OR, NOT ) and in what combination to implement the design. Everything we need to implement can be implemented using those three operations.
I forget the name of the software I used, it might have even been Cadence, this was back in 2008 and it ran on Linux. The version of the software itself was note even current. What we designed was actually manufactured at the end of the project.
The geometrical rules are for the production process in the foundry. But with the last tech its somewhat more complicated since its not simple things like the minimum placeholder, the software has to simulate the production process with each step you do in the creating process because otherwise the materials could bring out unwanted results. At least thats how i understood it.
What you are saying is that any software offered today requires rented time on actual hardware with minimum usage amounts? That is going to be tough to work around. The beauty of a project like this would have been to basically design the hardware in sections and a few key people putting it all together.
May 23, 2014, 09:17:03 PM
These tools costs very much money. Even renting them. And when you want something thats not really standard yet you need to work together with the software developer so they can fix every problem when it happens.
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed. That means you would have to sit together with TSMC, cadence and work together. Because the software isnt ready. The steps in between has to be finetuned all the way between all parts. He claimed its nothing like it was with 300nm once. There are no geometrical rules anymore. You have to have the rules not only in the last step, you need the rules all the time developing from the first step because the design has to be proofed from the start designing and is checked with every step done creating the design. Otherwise you could include your design into design software to check the foundry rules are applied. Thats not possible with low process nodes anymore. You need the software for developing.
Renting low process node development software costs 70,000€ - 80,000€ for a half year for analog and starts from 800,000€ for digital ASICs. Thats renting alone.
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed. That means you would have to sit together with TSMC, cadence and work together. Because the software isnt ready. The steps in between has to be finetuned all the way between all parts. He claimed its nothing like it was with 300nm once. There are no geometrical rules anymore. You have to have the rules not only in the last step, you need the rules all the time developing from the first step because the design has to be proofed from the start designing and is checked with every step done creating the design. Otherwise you could include your design into design software to check the foundry rules are applied. Thats not possible with low process nodes anymore. You need the software for developing.
Renting low process node development software costs 70,000€ - 80,000€ for a half year for analog and starts from 800,000€ for digital ASICs. Thats renting alone.
I have used software like Cadence in the past to design my own ICC in the past. If the software isn't ready for 14nm, and the manufacturing process isn't even ready, then that more or less means we should look at manufacturing process that does have software ready.
In your research how is the software like Cadence licensed now that geometrical rules are no longer used. My experience involved those rules, the software was easy enough to learn. You started with the basic and worked your way up. The major problem I see is unless you can spread the actual work around, have different design tasks, that this would be a ton of work for a small group of people.
What we have going for us is the fact we have an overal idea of the design itself. We know how both SHA256 and SCRYPT. All we have to do is figure out which ICCs ( AND, OR, NOT ) and in what combination to implement the design. Everything we need to implement can be implemented using those three operations.
I forget the name of the software I used, it might have even been Cadence, this was back in 2008 and it ran on Linux. The version of the software itself was note even current. What we designed was actually manufactured at the end of the project.
The geometrical rules are for the production process in the foundry. But with the last tech its somewhat more complicated since its not simple things like the minimum placeholder, the software has to simulate the production process with each step you do in the creating process because otherwise the materials could bring out unwanted results. At least thats how i understood it.
May 23, 2014, 01:02:24 PM
awww, but you asked about ICs, not about logic gates *pout*
May 23, 2014, 11:33:04 AM
Here is a knowlege check: What are the three basic ICs that can implement any IC?
The 4001 and the 4011 - what do I win? 
Wait.. you said three.. what do we need 3 for?
If you combine AND and OR with a NOT you get NAND and NOR.
One can extend that statement to say that NAND and NOR can represent any logic gate but the 3 basic logic gates are AND, OR, and NOT.
The reason I brought that up is the person made a big deal about XOR, XNOR, which again can created, by either NAND or NOR
May 23, 2014, 09:32:54 AM
Here is a knowlege check: What are the three basic ICs that can implement any IC?
The 4001 and the 4011 - what do I win? Wait.. you said three.. what do we need 3 for?
May 23, 2014, 09:24:31 AM
If someone could give me the tools (software and knowledge) I'll gladly design an amazing chip. I have designed 32bit PC's in minecraft so designing an asic can't be too hard. That 32 Bit PC had 4MB ram and 10MB of storage. (Of course i used a mod to help with it. It was RedPower mod made by Elorram. That mod added in most kinds of basic IC's like NAND and AND and NOR and OR and a few other basic chips.)
All I need to know is the basic chip design principles (In/Out/Work) and the software used to design such a chip. I have a (somewhat) good PC that should be able to run it (albeit slow). I know it takes alot to manufacture a chip and boards but I'd at least like a shot at designing a chip. Be great practice for sure.
You can send me a pm if you have any info that I stated I would need.
All I need to know is the basic chip design principles (In/Out/Work) and the software used to design such a chip. I have a (somewhat) good PC that should be able to run it (albeit slow). I know it takes alot to manufacture a chip and boards but I'd at least like a shot at designing a chip. Be great practice for sure.
You can send me a pm if you have any info that I stated I would need.
Everything you did in Minecraft was simplified.
Here is a knowlege check: What are the three basic ICs that can implement any IC?
May 23, 2014, 08:46:15 AM
These tools costs very much money. Even renting them. And when you want something thats not really standard yet you need to work together with the software developer so they can fix every problem when it happens.
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed. That means you would have to sit together with TSMC, cadence and work together. Because the software isnt ready. The steps in between has to be finetuned all the way between all parts. He claimed its nothing like it was with 300nm once. There are no geometrical rules anymore. You have to have the rules not only in the last step, you need the rules all the time developing from the first step because the design has to be proofed from the start designing and is checked with every step done creating the design. Otherwise you could include your design into design software to check the foundry rules are applied. Thats not possible with low process nodes anymore. You need the software for developing.
Renting low process node development software costs 70,000€ - 80,000€ for a half year for analog and starts from 800,000€ for digital ASICs. Thats renting alone.
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed. That means you would have to sit together with TSMC, cadence and work together. Because the software isnt ready. The steps in between has to be finetuned all the way between all parts. He claimed its nothing like it was with 300nm once. There are no geometrical rules anymore. You have to have the rules not only in the last step, you need the rules all the time developing from the first step because the design has to be proofed from the start designing and is checked with every step done creating the design. Otherwise you could include your design into design software to check the foundry rules are applied. Thats not possible with low process nodes anymore. You need the software for developing.
Renting low process node development software costs 70,000€ - 80,000€ for a half year for analog and starts from 800,000€ for digital ASICs. Thats renting alone.
I have used software like Cadence in the past to design my own ICC in the past. If the software isn't ready for 14nm, and the manufacturing process isn't even ready, then that more or less means we should look at manufacturing process that does have software ready.
In your research how is the software like Cadence licensed now that geometrical rules are no longer used. My experience involved those rules, the software was easy enough to learn. You started with the basic and worked your way up. The major problem I see is unless you can spread the actual work around, have different design tasks, that this would be a ton of work for a small group of people.
What we have going for us is the fact we have an overal idea of the design itself. We know how both SHA256 and SCRYPT. All we have to do is figure out which ICCs ( AND, OR, NOT ) and in what combination to implement the design. Everything we need to implement can be implemented using those three operations.
I forget the name of the software I used, it might have even been Cadence, this was back in 2008 and it ran on Linux. The version of the software itself was note even current. What we designed was actually manufactured at the end of the project.
May 23, 2014, 01:14:34 AM
Just my 2c -
yeah, it would be nice to have an open-source chip, but honestly - even if the design is open-sourced it still takes a lot of effort (read $$$) to turn chip design into a working silicone.
As this enterprise is going to require a lot of work there are 2 things that we need to clarify before we even start:
- engineering : design, software, development, etc - you need the appropriate people and resources for that. Do you have (at least some of) those?
- financials: there is no free soup. By the time you get a working chip there would be some expenses. How would they be recouped?
I guess all of this will be covered by The Plan.
And thinking about it - I guess we can start with simple questions like "where do we want to go" and "how do we get there".
The "where" part is somewhat clear - we want a chip (with some unknown specs so far).
yeah, it would be nice to have an open-source chip, but honestly - even if the design is open-sourced it still takes a lot of effort (read $$$) to turn chip design into a working silicone.
As this enterprise is going to require a lot of work there are 2 things that we need to clarify before we even start:
- engineering : design, software, development, etc - you need the appropriate people and resources for that. Do you have (at least some of) those?
- financials: there is no free soup. By the time you get a working chip there would be some expenses. How would they be recouped?
I guess all of this will be covered by The Plan.
And thinking about it - I guess we can start with simple questions like "where do we want to go" and "how do we get there".
The "where" part is somewhat clear - we want a chip (with some unknown specs so far).
+1
May 23, 2014, 12:13:14 AM
Just my 2c -
yeah, it would be nice to have an open-source chip, but honestly - even if the design is open-sourced it still takes a lot of effort (read $$$) to turn chip design into a working silicone.
As this enterprise is going to require a lot of work there are 2 things that we need to clarify before we even start:
- engineering : design, software, development, etc - you need the appropriate people and resources for that. Do you have (at least some of) those?
- financials: there is no free soup. By the time you get a working chip there would be some expenses. How would they be recouped?
I guess all of this will be covered by The Plan.
And thinking about it - I guess we can start with simple questions like "where do we want to go" and "how do we get there".
The "where" part is somewhat clear - we want a chip (with some unknown specs so far).
yeah, it would be nice to have an open-source chip, but honestly - even if the design is open-sourced it still takes a lot of effort (read $$$) to turn chip design into a working silicone.
As this enterprise is going to require a lot of work there are 2 things that we need to clarify before we even start:
- engineering : design, software, development, etc - you need the appropriate people and resources for that. Do you have (at least some of) those?
- financials: there is no free soup. By the time you get a working chip there would be some expenses. How would they be recouped?
I guess all of this will be covered by The Plan.
And thinking about it - I guess we can start with simple questions like "where do we want to go" and "how do we get there".
The "where" part is somewhat clear - we want a chip (with some unknown specs so far).
May 22, 2014, 07:55:36 PM
My 3 bits worth...
1. List what's available in regards to chip design already available open source and license ones .saves having to design c one from scratch.
2. Choose one which will be best, I.e. performance available once received from fab in a specific time frame e.g. a 28nm chip to be ready for 3 months needs to be at least a500ghs chip to give a machine which runs at least 10ths,most Likely a rackl system.
3.if step 2 is not good enough then step 1 should be too choose a node design and get a design made e.g 20nm or 18nm.
other possible steps contact designer manufacturer to get some quotes and time frames,bored designers, assemblers, software.
Working with the hive operation for boards would be a good idea it would save loads of time and money in the second phase of machine production because it's all done or in process.
just a start...maybe.
1. List what's available in regards to chip design already available open source and license ones .saves having to design c one from scratch.
2. Choose one which will be best, I.e. performance available once received from fab in a specific time frame e.g. a 28nm chip to be ready for 3 months needs to be at least a500ghs chip to give a machine which runs at least 10ths,most Likely a rackl system.
3.if step 2 is not good enough then step 1 should be too choose a node design and get a design made e.g 20nm or 18nm.
other possible steps contact designer manufacturer to get some quotes and time frames,bored designers, assemblers, software.
Working with the hive operation for boards would be a good idea it would save loads of time and money in the second phase of machine production because it's all done or in process.
just a start...maybe.
May 22, 2014, 09:28:14 AM
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed.
That's the point, the project development is a costly and risky business.
If your intention is to put the power to the small miners hands, then the best path is to go for a proven design with a good proven chip and make a monster buy order to reduce costs. Of course the community could help with the logistics involved and support requests from the buyers.
This could be done with kickstarter but considering that they take a (not so small) bite of the cake. It would be great to find a new decentralized platform to do it (like the one that is building Mike Hearn if I recall).
But which company do you choose?
Bitmain, spondoolies, seem like good companies but they will sell anyway.
So they have no motive to lower their price.
May 22, 2014, 05:08:56 AM
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed.
That's the point, the project development is a costly and risky business.
If your intention is to put the power to the small miners hands, then the best path is to go for a proven design with a good proven chip and make a monster buy order to reduce costs. Of course the community could help with the logistics involved and support requests from the buyers.
This could be done with kickstarter but considering that they take a (not so small) bite of the cake. It would be great to find a new decentralized platform to do it (like the one that is building Mike Hearn if I recall).
May 21, 2014, 02:47:00 PM
If someone could give me the tools (software and knowledge) I'll gladly design an amazing chip. I have designed 32bit PC's in minecraft so designing an asic can't be too hard. That 32 Bit PC had 4MB ram and 10MB of storage. (Of course i used a mod to help with it. It was RedPower mod made by Elorram. That mod added in most kinds of basic IC's like NAND and AND and NOR and OR and a few other basic chips.)
All I need to know is the basic chip design principles (In/Out/Work) and the software used to design such a chip. I have a (somewhat) good PC that should be able to run it (albeit slow). I know it takes alot to manufacture a chip and boards but I'd at least like a shot at designing a chip. Be great practice for sure.
You can send me a pm if you have any info that I stated I would need.
All I need to know is the basic chip design principles (In/Out/Work) and the software used to design such a chip. I have a (somewhat) good PC that should be able to run it (albeit slow). I know it takes alot to manufacture a chip and boards but I'd at least like a shot at designing a chip. Be great practice for sure.
You can send me a pm if you have any info that I stated I would need.
These tools costs very much money. Even renting them. And when you want something thats not really standard yet you need to work together with the software developer so they can fix every problem when it happens.
When i thought about creating 14nm Asic's with someone i called such a company by phone. Flowcad. And he spoke with the creator Cadence. Its not possible to simply buy such a product because the tech is not yet developed. That means you would have to sit together with TSMC, cadence and work together. Because the software isnt ready. The steps in between has to be finetuned all the way between all parts. He claimed its nothing like it was with 300nm once. There are no geometrical rules anymore. You have to have the rules not only in the last step, you need the rules all the time developing from the first step because the design has to be proofed from the start designing and is checked with every step done creating the design. Otherwise you could include your design into design software to check the foundry rules are applied. Thats not possible with low process nodes anymore. You need the software for developing.
Renting low process node development software costs 70,000€ - 80,000€ for a half year for analog and starts from 800,000€ for digital ASICs. Thats renting alone.
May 21, 2014, 12:17:49 PM
If someone could give me the tools (software and knowledge) I'll gladly design an amazing chip. I have designed 32bit PC's in minecraft so designing an asic can't be too hard. That 32 Bit PC had 4MB ram and 10MB of storage. (Of course i used a mod to help with it. It was RedPower mod made by Elorram. That mod added in most kinds of basic IC's like NAND and AND and NOR and OR and a few other basic chips.)
All I need to know is the basic chip design principles (In/Out/Work) and the software used to design such a chip. I have a (somewhat) good PC that should be able to run it (albeit slow). I know it takes alot to manufacture a chip and boards but I'd at least like a shot at designing a chip. Be great practice for sure.
You can send me a pm if you have any info that I stated I would need.
All I need to know is the basic chip design principles (In/Out/Work) and the software used to design such a chip. I have a (somewhat) good PC that should be able to run it (albeit slow). I know it takes alot to manufacture a chip and boards but I'd at least like a shot at designing a chip. Be great practice for sure.
You can send me a pm if you have any info that I stated I would need.
May 20, 2014, 06:34:29 PM
I'm very interested in this idea however; I can not afford to have someone just walk off w/ all my hard earned Bitcoin. I think what others are saying too is that a basic business plan is needed since too many scammers in Crypto that are ruining it for the honest folks among us who want to get Rid of some of this Money-Grabbing Greed!!!
Would be fabulous to have a extremely efficient 40nm ----> 28nm process chip that can be spread out among us Miners and NOT just have these ASIC companies hashing 75% of the entire network from the Chips WE all paid for w/ our 6-16 Month Pre-orders
With a clear and intelligent plan along w/ investor $$ protection, I'm sure that you'll find 100's of us Miners willing to put in what BTC we can to support and, in the end, profit from this venture.
Would be fabulous to have a extremely efficient 40nm ----> 28nm process chip that can be spread out among us Miners and NOT just have these ASIC companies hashing 75% of the entire network from the Chips WE all paid for w/ our 6-16 Month Pre-orders
With a clear and intelligent plan along w/ investor $$ protection, I'm sure that you'll find 100's of us Miners willing to put in what BTC we can to support and, in the end, profit from this venture.
Of course the OP will be edited with a proper plan layout. I want to hear opinions, suggestions, ideas get some brainstorming in this thread pros cons etc. before I write up any outline. I would not approach an idea if I was not confident in it. Currently I need to hear as much feedback on this as possible and maybe even a few PM's on people who would like to participate for what I see as a great idea that should of been turned reality as soon as we seen how BFL handled there very first ASIC chip. Obviously if they can some how manage this I see no reason why we don't and try to level the playing field just a tad?
Who knows maybe Satoshi Nakamoto will be the one who holds the private key to the wallet with the funds for this type of project. What if just maybe you see that genesis block move around shortly after the proposal is written up.
Back to the topic I want this to be a community project and so far a great deal of positive feedback. How about the way you would like to see it work and move forward from the idea phase. Every post I read I will be taking to account as I work on the proposal.
May 20, 2014, 05:44:22 PM
I'm very interested in this idea however; I can not afford to have someone just walk off w/ all my hard earned Bitcoin. I think what others are saying too is that a basic business plan is needed since too many scammers in Crypto that are ruining it for the honest folks among us who want to get Rid of some of this Money-Grabbing Greed!!!
Would be fabulous to have a extremely efficient 40nm ----> 28nm process chip that can be spread out among us Miners and NOT just have these ASIC companies hashing 75% of the entire network from the Chips WE all paid for w/ our 6-16 Month Pre-orders
With a clear and intelligent plan along w/ investor $$ protection, I'm sure that you'll find 100's of us Miners willing to put in what BTC we can to support and, in the end, profit from this venture.
Would be fabulous to have a extremely efficient 40nm ----> 28nm process chip that can be spread out among us Miners and NOT just have these ASIC companies hashing 75% of the entire network from the Chips WE all paid for w/ our 6-16 Month Pre-orders
With a clear and intelligent plan along w/ investor $$ protection, I'm sure that you'll find 100's of us Miners willing to put in what BTC we can to support and, in the end, profit from this venture.
May 20, 2014, 03:12:39 PM
I'm going to follow this discussion. It seems like something really good is about to happen. Update me when it starts.
May 20, 2014, 02:58:28 PM
I think the custom boards are already there. They just need a little editting.
Check out these projects:
Wasp(the big miners)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-wasp-project-collective-information-thread-422243
Nanofury(usb)
I don't think usb miners are going to be it, just not competative anymore.
Stick with the larger formfactor, in the 1000$ range per device.
H-CARD Mini(8 chip)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gauging-interest-h-card-mini-group-fab-583569
Also I think gawminers is setting up their own production line, maybe you can make a deal with them.
Check out these projects:
Wasp(the big miners)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-wasp-project-collective-information-thread-422243
Nanofury(usb)
I don't think usb miners are going to be it, just not competative anymore.
Stick with the larger formfactor, in the 1000$ range per device.
H-CARD Mini(8 chip)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gauging-interest-h-card-mini-group-fab-583569
Also I think gawminers is setting up their own production line, maybe you can make a deal with them.
I'm familiar with these boards however the main intention of this would be to develop an ASIC chip that is distributed to your everyday miners with a lot less greed in mind.
May 20, 2014, 01:56:25 PM
I think the custom boards are already there. They just need a little editting.
Check out these projects:
Wasp(the big miners)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-wasp-project-collective-information-thread-422243
Nanofury(usb)
I don't think usb miners are going to be it, just not competative anymore.
Stick with the larger formfactor, in the 1000$ range per device.
H-CARD Mini(8 chip)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gauging-interest-h-card-mini-group-fab-583569
Also I think gawminers is setting up their own production line, maybe you can make a deal with them.
Check out these projects:
Wasp(the big miners)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-wasp-project-collective-information-thread-422243
Nanofury(usb)
I don't think usb miners are going to be it, just not competative anymore.
Stick with the larger formfactor, in the 1000$ range per device.
H-CARD Mini(8 chip)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gauging-interest-h-card-mini-group-fab-583569
Also I think gawminers is setting up their own production line, maybe you can make a deal with them.
May 20, 2014, 01:09:13 PM
May 20, 2014, 01:04:17 PM
kickstarter would be great for this it would fit in perfectly.
Explain a bit more possibly? I'm not entirely sure I understand unless you mean like a "kickstarter" in the OP that really lays out the milestones how it would be done and how the investors who help fund this benefit?
May 20, 2014, 11:58:32 AM
kickstarter would be great for this it would fit in perfectly.
May 20, 2014, 09:51:01 AM
Alright I'll get to work on it and have the proposal milestones etc written up.
May 20, 2014, 07:50:12 AM
I reckon a plan needs to be laid out just like other gb,'s e.g. 100 shares each share for 2btc etc. And all possible costs profits roi etc.
its a big job even for buying hardware let alone a chip fab. but a guide would encourage more. I wish i could do more, its fantastic idea.
its a big job even for buying hardware let alone a chip fab. but a guide would encourage more. I wish i could do more, its fantastic idea.
May 20, 2014, 07:47:47 AM
the Interest is there, for me it's hard to get what are the the next Steps what are the Milestones etc. Imagine this would be a Kickstarter Project, you need to be more clear what is the required input and what is the output 
May 20, 2014, 05:59:58 AM
Not to much interest? estimated minimum cost that I've been told is 2.4M Out of every group buy this should be no problem judging from previous group buys I have hosted. Any suggestions or feedback on hesitation?
May 13, 2014, 07:28:51 PM
sounds like a great idea to me, I've had a thought of a miner company run by miners for the people...not to reap all the benifits selling to the ppl...thought AM was doing a good job, but then they just got blown outta the water and couldn't keep up...I'd invest in it because i believe the way its going right now is if your not hosting these huge machines it'll only be ppl with tons of money to buy these mining machines that will be mining and us little guys will be pushed out, but if you pushed out a great working chip and sold it cheap...then what? are you going to follow thur and make a full miner outta it? or just sell the chip to ppl that will make a full miner outta it and raise the price sky high?
First it would be the asic chip itself that would need to be designed, tested and then fabricated on large scale. Which may include royalties to the designer for each chip sold.
Next would be paying for full open source design of USB type device then 16, 32 and 80 chip devices which can vary. After a few test units were made the project would then be openly available to anyone looking at calling a fab company to have them build these boards for you.
After all developer, design and fabricationo costs the chip itself would then be available to everyone. The group who helped fund this project would be a % based on what I would see viable after I calculated estimations which I believe between a 10-20% markup straight from the factory is very reasonable price considering what we all see currently available chip wise in the market. Before I take my time and effort to really bring this to life I really need this to get a bit more attraction then what i've seen since I opened the topic.
IF you are serious about this and would like to be apart of it send a PM on how much in BTC or post here you'd be willing to use to help fund this sort of project. Of course there is other various options as well in this so please post your feedback and how you would like to see something like this done.
May 13, 2014, 10:09:55 AM
sounds like a great idea to me, I've had a thought of a miner company run by miners for the people...not to reap all the benifits selling to the ppl...thought AM was doing a good job, but then they just got blown outta the water and couldn't keep up...I'd invest in it because i believe the way its going right now is if your not hosting these huge machines it'll only be ppl with tons of money to buy these mining machines that will be mining and us little guys will be pushed out, but if you pushed out a great working chip and sold it cheap...then what? are you going to follow thur and make a full miner outta it? or just sell the chip to ppl that will make a full miner outta it and raise the price sky high?
May 09, 2014, 07:22:55 PM
A great idea, a similar thought did cross my mind, once before i buried it. but dreams can come true.one should follow them at some point.
i wanted to use someone elses chips and do my own boards at least, still in the pipline.
but im interested for sure, its needed.
i wanted to use someone elses chips and do my own boards at least, still in the pipline.
but im interested for sure, its needed.
May 09, 2014, 02:41:16 PM
I think the idea is great.
Maybe you could start by trying to get spondoolies, who has the most efficient chip at the moment, to share their chip design with you, so you can have them produced on your own. Then we only need a board design, which they might share with you as well.
Spondoolies claims to be aiming at more decentralization, so it's worth a try...
This would be a great start, and you could use the small profit to start developing your own next gen asic.
Maybe you could start by trying to get spondoolies, who has the most efficient chip at the moment, to share their chip design with you, so you can have them produced on your own. Then we only need a board design, which they might share with you as well.
Spondoolies claims to be aiming at more decentralization, so it's worth a try...
This would be a great start, and you could use the small profit to start developing your own next gen asic.
I am actually speaking with spondoolies and setting up a conference now. The whole point of this group buy after I work out some logsitics of it is to provide what the people need to keep mining decentralized. It has already been proven that this community can fund millions in vaporware for the company to reap the benefits like BFL for example. For us only to get the chip sold back to us at a 500-1000% higher then production cost.
Keep these posts coming I want to feel confident in this community before funds start being collected. This will only be a BTC only funded project and fully transparent the whole way until the first chips roll off production line.
May 09, 2014, 09:19:28 AM
I think the idea is great.
Maybe you could start by trying to get spondoolies, who has the most efficient chip at the moment, to share their chip design with you, so you can have them produced on your own. Then we only need a board design, which they might share with you as well.
Spondoolies claims to be aiming at more decentralization, so it's worth a try...
This would be a great start, and you could use the small profit to start developing your own next gen asic.
Maybe you could start by trying to get spondoolies, who has the most efficient chip at the moment, to share their chip design with you, so you can have them produced on your own. Then we only need a board design, which they might share with you as well.
Spondoolies claims to be aiming at more decentralization, so it's worth a try...
This would be a great start, and you could use the small profit to start developing your own next gen asic.
May 08, 2014, 11:43:10 PM
Most gear comes out not a lot better then anyone else last piece of gear that was a true killer was the knc oct 2013 gear.
That's because you don't understand physics, how chip works and convertors.
I do not need to understand the physics of a chip. I need to know what is costs to make and how big of an edge I get with it over other chips. Dropping 1 million usd or 3000 btc to design a chip that does .3 watts does not make a lot of economic sense. your sp30 chip does .46 watts.
If the asic chip laws of physics prevent a .03 to .05 watt chip. and the minimum any asic will do is .2 watts.
then asic chip design has become a dead end. Some would think no but if we never do a new jump to far better then a .2 watt chip. We will need flat growth or btc fiat growth to stay diverse.
Your new machine if it ends up being one of the best we ever get means a dozen cold weather super cloud companies in a country that has very good mining laws.
A good chip that could do 20 gh on a usb port pulling only 2.5 watts would be helpful for diversity . A great chip that could do 50 gh on a usb stick would allow the small miner to get back in the game.
Either chip above with an anti chaining limit(2 chip max) would mean it has be an usb hub. right now You are most likely correct that it can't be done.
Thus BTC will die on the vine. Where they are a few big companies and that is it. Jan 1 ant miner u-1's were hot.
To be a good deal a usb stick needs to be 20-50gh at 2.5 watts since it is for usb. nothing is close. at all zip. So the entire usb stick mining industry is dying.
People are getting s-1's 200-250 usd and a psu . I have sold 20 and set up many of them. 8 buyers have all electric homes including the heat. Big upside for diverse users all over the world. A small heater that pays you back.
Well I wish the builders of the new chip luck as I have no skills to build one or design one.
May 08, 2014, 07:48:55 PM
Most gear comes out not a lot better then anyone else last piece of gear that was a true killer was the knc oct 2013 gear.
That's because you don't understand physics, how chip works and convertors.
May 08, 2014, 07:44:03 PM
love the idea.
but and here is a big but. it needs to be far better then any chip out there. say a cpu type die fitting an 1150 mobo socket. uses 65-100 watts and it is 2th .
most newer better gear now is just a bit better. A chip like the one above .03 to .05 watt per hash is better the the sp30's .46 by a large margin.
basically it need not be a break through but in needs to be a big jump in efficient power use.
the last few chips have not popped the power down much.
Most gear comes out not a lot better then anyone else last piece of gear that was a true killer was the knc oct 2013 gear.
but and here is a big but. it needs to be far better then any chip out there. say a cpu type die fitting an 1150 mobo socket. uses 65-100 watts and it is 2th .
most newer better gear now is just a bit better. A chip like the one above .03 to .05 watt per hash is better the the sp30's .46 by a large margin.
basically it need not be a break through but in needs to be a big jump in efficient power use.
the last few chips have not popped the power down much.
Most gear comes out not a lot better then anyone else last piece of gear that was a true killer was the knc oct 2013 gear.
May 08, 2014, 06:13:36 PM
So how do you think will that work? I mean some percent above chip production price is ok but the millions for creating a working design and the chips has to be spent too. You need a mass of people to invest. And the question is how long will the chips be worth something after that.
I only have a hard time imagining how this could work financially. I mean the big guys with the thousands of bitcoins most probably came together to create their own chip. If they hadnt enough they created something like 100TH IPO, gave some breadcrumbs back to their investors and had their own mining chip practically for free at the end.
I only have a hard time imagining how this could work financially. I mean the big guys with the thousands of bitcoins most probably came together to create their own chip. If they hadnt enough they created something like 100TH IPO, gave some breadcrumbs back to their investors and had their own mining chip practically for free at the end.
May 08, 2014, 04:50:26 PM
reserved
May 08, 2014, 04:48:51 PM
This is something that I have pondered and have wanted to setup for quite some time before I open this I want to hear opinions.
As we all know we have funded various companies from BFL to KNC to the several other companies that have popped up accepting pre-orders I have ran group buys and seen first hand how this operates I am not entirely fond of being used by a company for them to reap the benefits of the hardware that we paid for to build.
What this group buy is going to be meant for is the design and fabrication of a chip that is sold for a small % above manufacture costs which will be equally distributed between everyone who helps fund this and provides resources to make it happen. It will be a bitcoin only funded project and completely open source.
Anyone here on bitcointalk.org interested in offering the first chip that is not sold at 1000% above production cost to help bring back and keep bitcoin decentralized? If not please post your reason why if you are up for it lets do what the bitcoin foundation should have done a long time ago. I'm very eager to hear responses as this is a rather large project and is going to require a vast amount of funding.
As we all know we have funded various companies from BFL to KNC to the several other companies that have popped up accepting pre-orders I have ran group buys and seen first hand how this operates I am not entirely fond of being used by a company for them to reap the benefits of the hardware that we paid for to build.
What this group buy is going to be meant for is the design and fabrication of a chip that is sold for a small % above manufacture costs which will be equally distributed between everyone who helps fund this and provides resources to make it happen. It will be a bitcoin only funded project and completely open source.
Anyone here on bitcointalk.org interested in offering the first chip that is not sold at 1000% above production cost to help bring back and keep bitcoin decentralized? If not please post your reason why if you are up for it lets do what the bitcoin foundation should have done a long time ago. I'm very eager to hear responses as this is a rather large project and is going to require a vast amount of funding.
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