Topic: [Group buy + hosting] Any interest in Bitfury miner group buy + hosting in UK? (Read 1641 times)

Just added it above.

Link to new thread please.

OK, we're going to use John K's escrow offer to collect funds for the GB and if I understand his PM correctly he requires 25% of an order to be pledged before opening the escrow account. As such, I'm going to open the GB post to pledges now. I'll open a new thread for this, please don't pledge here.

GB thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252534.new#new

Sorry, my misreading. Buy as soon as you can.

This thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=251966.120 suggests that the August orders are almost sold out (he counts European sales as well as his own)!

Some good points, thanks.

1) I'm happy to have people send signed messages when they join. I guess it's not essential with this type of setup, as mining payments will be made to the address that contributions were made from. However, at least signing will make sure everybody actually can sign in case of problems etc. Will include this in the final T&C.

2) Yes, by unprofitable I mean when mining can no longer cover the electricity bill (in £). You're right that this will depend on difficulty and BTC price (rates will be taken from bitstamp and I'll take a rough average over a few days to a week when making a decision on profitability - i.e. it won't be turned on and off every hour as things fluctuate). I don't see any problem with mothballing the miner to ride out short-term falls in BTC price if group members want this. I'm happy to organise some kind of vote on this forum to decide what to do with the miner if it's turned off due to profitability. I reserve the right to set the options being voted on (after consultation with the group) and a majority vote (constituting 50% of shares) for one of the options tabled will mean we take that option. If no option receives votes worth more than 50% of the shares I reserve the right to decide for the group using the votes cast and the consultation as guidance. It may be that delaying a decision costs everybody money and I want the option to break any potential deadlock. Will include this in the final T&C.

3) Perhaps my initial thoughts weren't expressed clearly enough. I would like to order components, be they the starter kit or individual H-boards as soon as we have enough funds to place an order for a component to get our orders in the queue as soon as possible. I wouldn't suggest waiting for all 15 boards to fill up. I think that's what you mean, if so then we will do this!

Likewise.

This continues to be relevant to my interestseseses.

Looks good on the whole. I will probably buy-in.

Three thoughts -

For extra security and peace-of-mind, investors should send you a signed message, so both parties know the address is indeed under the control of the investor.

"unprofitable... (i.e. if power costs outweigh the amount of BTC being mined by the miner)."
Presumably the power costs are paid in GBP or another fiat currency. Given that BTC exchange rates have been very volatile, what numbers will be used for the calculation? Once the machine is 'turned off' because it is unprofitable, will it remain mothballed in case the exchange rate (and profitability) rises again, rather then being sold off? Would the investors get to vote before any irreversible decisions are made?

If bitfury can not produce their products quickly enough to meet the demand for October delivery, would the plan cover buying in “Bitfury 55nm ASIC H-Board” as they become available, rather then waiting for all fifteen to be ready (subject to funds of course)?

Hi All, as promised some suggested terms and conditions for a group buy + hosting are below. I'll leave these here for comments and suggestions for a few hours before opening the GB (this will be in a new thread), so if you want to make any suggestions I'll certainly consider them (as long as they are sensible ).

I've exchanged messages with John K. and he has kindly offered to verify our ID and if requested provide an escrow service (2% fee). Please let me know if you would like the escrow service or not as part of this GB. The benefit is a little more security, but the downside is a little more cost for the GB + slightly more complicated admin (i.e. we will need to be in good contact with John K. to ensure that components are ordered as soon as possible when enough funds have been gathered). Note that the T&C below include the escrow, but we can change this.

*********************
Draft Terms and Conditions

Bitfurystrikesback.com have recently announced that they will sell ASIC bitcoin mining hardware (chips, boards and complete miners) for delivery in either August or October 2013. However, they will only ship to buyers in the EU. In order to allow those outside the EU, particularly smaller miners, access to this state-of-the-art hardware we are offering a group buy with hosting (based in the UK) for bitfury-based mining hardware.

What’s on offer:
A group buy (GB) with subsequent hosting (in the UK) for mining hardware based on bitfury’s ASICs. See punin’s thread (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-bitfury-asic-sales-in-eu-and-europe-250249), bitfury’s thread (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-bitfury-is-looking-for-alpha-testers-of-first-chips-free-money-here-228677) and (http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com) for info on the hardware. We propose to buy, on behalf of the group, one “25 GH/s Miner Starter Kit” for August delivery. This will be followed (depending on the amount of funds raised by the GB) by up to fifteen “Bitfury 55nm ASIC H-Board” for October delivery. The potential hash rate for the GB is therefore ~400 GH/s, with an estimated power consumption of 400W (for SHA-256 hashing, based on advertised data from bitfurystrikesback.com). Bitfurystrikesback.com only accept payment in BTC through BitPay. The GB only accepts share contributions in BTC.

There are several advantages to buying in this modular way rather than collecting funds for a “full” 400 GH/s miner. Firstly, a 400GH/s miner with October delivery is actually cheaper when bought in this modular way rather than if ordered as a complete unit. Secondly, collecting funds for modules means that we will be able to fill orders more quickly and potentially gain a better position in any delivery queues. Thirdly, having the starter kit arriving in August will allow the group to start hashing as soon as possible, potentially taking advantage of the lower difficulty that might be expected earlier in the year.

Chip features (from http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com)
•   55nm process
•   Full-custom hand-routed design
•   Experimental low-threshold voltage transistors
•   QFN 48 7mm x 7mm package
•   756 rolled hash cores
•   Demonstrated performance 2.7 GH/sec @ 0.835V (0.8W/Ghps)

25 GH/s Miner Starter Kit features (from http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com)
•   ~25 GHash/s
•   Price = 1000 Euro + VAT (at 24%) for August delivery (including delivery costs)
•   25GH Miner with only 1 hashing board. Originally designed by c-scape for the 100TH mine.
•   Modular design expandable to 16 hash boards for total of 400GHash/s
•   Easy to install into racks
•   Compatible with ATX PSU, Total power  draw ~40W (Efficiency at wall depends on your PSU)
•   1 Master board, 1 Hashing board with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips, Raspberry Pi Model B with SD card and software preinstalled and 2 x Ring terminal to Molex-Jr adapter cables included.

Bitfury 55nm ASIC H-Board features (from http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com)
•   ~25 GHash/s
•   Price = 350 Euro + VAT (at 24%) for October delivery (including delivery costs)
•   16 chip Hashing Board to be used with the Master board (i.e. plugs into the above starter kit)

 
Collection of funds from potential group members
We will collect shares from potential group members at 0.5 BTC per share. Only payments in 0.5 BTC increments will be accepted. Since the hardware is priced in Euro and the BTC price has been volatile recently the precise number of shares required to purchase each component is a little hard to estimate. At current BTC rates one “25 GH/s Miner Starter Kit” would cost ~22 BTC, so ~44 shares as an example.

We will check the balance of the collection account at least once per day and when we have sufficient BTC for a component (i.e. starter kit, followed by H-boards) an order will be placed with bitfurystrikesback.com. A GB fee will be charged by us (2% of the order value for organising the GB and 2% of the order value for the Escrow service i.e. a total of 4%) and the total (component cost + GB fee) will be used to calculate the number of shares awarded. If more is collected than is needed for the next component then those people contributing after the required total has been reached will be offered a refund or for their contributions to roll over to the collection for the next component. The blockchain will be used to judge the order of payment.

In the case that a shipment from bitfurystrikesback.com is stopped by customs and a fee has to be paid to get it back, all group members will pay the fee needed (in proportion to the number of shares that they own) to free it. This is unlikely, since we will pay the necessary VAT at time of purchase and the shipment will be within the EU. However, it’s worth mentioning what would need to happen just in case!

Confirmation of share purchase
No personal confirmation will be given. If you want to check, wait for the next list with orders to be posted to this thread and search for your address. If something is not right inform jlsminingcorp. The list is the confirmation.

Payment of mined BTC to group members
Any BTC mined will be distributed to group members in proportion to the number of shares that they own and the number of coins mined by the miner (the miner is defined as all hardware components in this group buy that are actively mining) since the last payment.* jlsminingcorp will deduct power costs (currently £0.09 per kWh, but subject to change) and a 5% hosting fee before distributing mined coins to group members. The hosting fee covers the time required to look after the miner, share the cost of internet connection and router, cover time spent to ensure payments are processed etc. The following formula will be used:

Pay per share (in BTC) = ((coins mined since last payment – power costs) * 0.95) / total number of shares issued for mining components that have been delivered

Payments will be made in BTC once per week to the addresses used to purchase shares. Payments will only be made to group members who have shares in components that have been delivered. Payments will not be made to group members who have shares in components that have been ordered, but not delivered. Payments, will not be made for potential group members who have made payments to the collection account, but have not yet had components ordered. jlsminingcorp reserves the right to deduct reasonable costs from coins mined (prior to distribution to group members) if these are justified to maintain the smooth running of the miner for the group. As an example, such costs might include (but are not limited to) replacement PSUs, fans, and other components for the miner, taxes etc. Group members will be informed if these costs arise.

* Note: the group is aiming to build a single miner with up to 16 hashing boards and mining proceeds will be paid to all group members based on the performance of the miner as a whole (not on the basis of the hashing power of individual components). There is an incentive for all group members (in terms of the ratio of GH/s to number of shares issued) for all 16 hashing boards to be ordered during the GB.

Hosting arrangements
jlsminingcorp will endeavour to keep the miner running as efficiently as possible to maximise the amount of coins mined for the group, whilst keeping costs for the group as low as reasonably possible. This will include choosing appropriate mining pools to minimise rejects, minimise pool fees (if appropriate) and maximise pool efficiency; providing a suitable environment for the miner; providing access to power (costs charged to the group) and an internet connection. This will not include overclocking of the hardware (this looks as though it may be impossible, difficult or at best risky with the current hardware design). UPS and redundant internet connection are not included, as they would significantly increase the hosting cost for the group. We have been mining 24/7 with GPUs for several months now with no power or internet stability problems, so they are also unlikely to be needed. I will provide a PSU and racking/support system that should be suitable for use with the full miner. However, in the event that these are not suitable for any reason then the costs for alternatives will be deducted from coins mined, prior to distribution to group members.

jlsminingcorp will run the miner for at least 12 months from the date of delivery of the first module, or until it becomes unprofitable to do so (i.e. if power costs outweigh the amount of BTC being mined by the miner), whichever comes first. I would imagine that we may be able to run the hardware for longer than this before it becomes unprofitable, due to the low power consumption, but nobody can predict what the network hash rate or difficulty will be in 12 months’ time. When the miner becomes unprofitable to run I will attempt to sell it, or its components to maximise the amount of money that can be returned to group members. Any profit from sale of the miner will be returned as a dividend to group members in proportion to the number of shares that they own.

Hardware lifetime and failure
bitfurystrikesback.com has not provided any details regarding the expected lifetime of this hardware (we will post here if this information is released). Considering the expected power consumption one would expect that it should run at least for the period described above. However, we can’t guarantee the hardware lifetime – there just isn’t enough information available to do so. If the hardware does fail then we will do what we can to get it fixed in a way that is most cost-effective to the group.
 
Non-delivery, damage, hashrate etc.
The GB organisers take no responsibility for the possibility that bitfurystrikesback.com does not deliver the miner (on time or at all). We all know that you can never 100% guarantee anything when it comes to pre-orders, particularly when it comes to bitcoin mining ASICs. We also take no responsibility for the accuracy of bitfurystrikesback.com’s description of the miner’s capabilities (hashrate, power consumption etc.), damage in transit or other factors outside of our control. If we believe that bitfurystrikesback.com has a case to answer should any of these problems arise, we will do everything that we reasonably can to get bitfurystrikesback.com to rectify the situation on behalf of the group.

Refunds
Refunds can be requested at any point until an order is placed based on those funds. Share purchases are binding once funds have been used to place an order for a particular module (they will be with bitfurystrikesback.com then and not us!) If you request a refund we reserve the right not to accept any further payments from you for this or future GBs (to prevent risk offsetting at our expense).

Sale of shares
If you would like to sell your shares at a later date I will charge a 1% fee (hassle fee) for doing this.
 
Acceptance of terms and conditions
By entering into this group buy you accept the terms and conditions set out here.

To purchase shares
1)   Send 0.5 BTC per share to xxxx (please only send multiples of 0.5 BTC)
2)   Post a message on this forum (or PM jlsminingcorp) stating: your forum nickname, the number of shares you want, the number of BTC you have sent, the sending address. Please use the following comma-separated format:
“nickname”,”shares”,”btc”,”address”
e.g. jlsminingcorp,2,1,1acer8EGZmqKvrRE4Qc9bUFf9PX3xaYTp

Only send payments from an address you control (i.e. one you can sign a message with). If you send from MtGox or other exchanges, you risk losing your funds, as it will be impossible to prove that you sent them. If you’ve bought shares please keep an eye on this thread and make sure that the correct address and number of shares etc. is showing in the status update (updated at least once per day). If something looks wrong you will need to prove that you are the owner of that address by signing a message with your sending address. How to sign/verify messages? (http://imgur.com/a/nUmZ0, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1922342).
Please note that some BTC wallet’s can’t sign messages.

I will use the sending address for BTC payouts of coins mined for the group and if you request a change of payout address I will require that you can sign a message with your share purchase address to confirm this. If you are unable to do this I WILL NOT CHANGE THE RECEIVING ADDRESS. This is for your own protection.

Who are we?
jlsminingcorp are two enthusiastic bitcoiners who are relatively new to the community, but are very interested in getting more involved. We’re based in the UK and have been mining since Feb 2013. We have verified our identities with John K.

Trust and communication
In order to gain trust we have verified our identity with John K. and we will use John K.’s escrow service to collect funds for the GB to provide trust and security. During mining, group members will be informed of the bitcoin address(es) that mined coins are being paid to by our pools. Group members will also be informed of the pools used and the nicknames used. This should ensure that anybody who wants to can watch the mining process in real-time. jlsminingcorp will post regular (weekly?) progress updates and news on a separate thread in this forum during mining. Videos of cgminer (or equivalent) miner output will be posted when new hardware is added, or when these are requested by group members (so long as this is not unreasonably often!) We hope that will give group members the confidence that mining is progressing and that payments are being handled fairly. We will endeavour to respond to all communications as quickly as possible, but there may be some times when we won’t be available, so would appreciate your patience. Wherever possible, we will inform group members of any expected prolonged “quiet” periods (the occasional holiday etc.) in advance.

Risk
Bitcoin price, difficulty, network hashrate, the reputability of suppliers and many other factors associated with this GB are unpredictable. There are potential rewards, but also significant risks to this GB and we don’t offer any guarantees about the success of the venture. Please ensure that you have done a careful risk/reward analysis before joining the GB. We expect all potential group members to have done sufficient research to understand the hardware and bitcoin ecosphere sufficiently to understand what this GB will be doing. We are not in a position to offer any financial advice relating to this GB or other bitcoin-related matters.

OK, sounds like there may be some interest. Just working on some terms and conditions for your perusal now. One or two other bitfury GBs have been advertised over the last couple of days, so you may want to see if they work for you while you wait. I have something "slightly" different in mind, which may suit some. Will post ASAP.

Def interested, I need to diversify from just KNC shares.

Interested also.

Time scale: depends on how much faith you have in bitfurystrikesback.com, but they are suggesting August and October deliveries at the moment. I'm trying to get some info from them about their confidence levels with these estimates.

VAT: will need to be paid at 20%

EDIT: Actually after doing some VAT-related research I think VAT will be due in Finland, where the rate is sadly 24% !

Experience: Well bitfury's testing thread has posts which suggest that the hardware is working if I've followed things correctly. As far as I know there are no "customers" with running hardware yet.

As with all of these ASICs there are risks and (potential) rewards and everybody needs to do a careful risk analysis.

Hope this helps.

I was initially thinking of around 1 BTC per share. This would mean around 300-350 shares for a 400GH/s miner, depending on how they calculate the bitcoin price and the rather unstable BTC value at the moment.

Edit: I should add that the number of shares above would be for an August delivery miner with VAT added. October delivery miners are cheaper.

OK, sounds interesting, I'd be happy to collaborate if we can work it out. I'll PM you.

cost per share?

Lower Watt-usage per GH/s and risk diversification. Also currently probably faster time to delivery over KNC orders made at current date.

I'm interested, but there seem to be a lot of unanswered questions about this. Time scale, VAT, experience with these chips and/or assembled machines... I've bought shares in the KcNMiner group buys, what advantages would this scheme have?

If you can provide sufficient evidence of honesty, hosting etc. I would consider joining forces in a hosted group buy of October delivery Bitfury for listing as mining coop on BTCT.CO. PM me if interested, I have hosted several previous group buys.

I also believe we could avoid the need for escrow as many Hero members etc. are already owners of shares in my initial group buys and I have previously verified my identity with mods and escrow partners.

In a safe and cost efficient, especially the case of guaranteed time, there will be a lot of people are interested, I wish you success!

interested in this