Topic: [H] Paypal [N] BTC (Read 2730 times)
I have been selling other altcoins for a month now, using paypal. No problem so far. Can't help the OP though because I'm charging more than bitstamp for bitcoin.
I'm still exchanging my Paypal to BTC.
I can sell LTC to you if you're interested http://www.litecoinlocal.org/user/9102
I'm still exchanging my Paypal to BTC.
You will need to wait 45 - 180 days for the transactions to finalize depending if the account was funded via credit card. Good luck finding escrow to do that.
Again, this is not a good idea for yourself or any buyer prospect.
In which way should the escrow/buyer wait 45-180 days to release the payment if they buy an item/gift card?Again, this is not a good idea for yourself or any buyer prospect.
You really need to read the TOS of both Paypal and a credit card. Look specifically for the charge back times allowed.
You will need to wait 45 - 180 days for the transactions to finalize depending if the account was funded via credit card. Good luck finding escrow to do that.
Again, this is not a good idea for yourself or any buyer prospect.
In which way should the escrow/buyer wait 45-180 days to release the payment if they buy an item/gift card?Again, this is not a good idea for yourself or any buyer prospect.
You really need to read the TOS of both Paypal and a credit card. Look specifically for the charge back times allowed.
You will need to wait 45 - 180 days for the transactions to finalize depending if the account was funded via credit card. Good luck finding escrow to do that.
Again, this is not a good idea for yourself or any buyer prospect.
In which way should the escrow/buyer wait 45-180 days to release the payment if they buy an item/gift card? Again, this is not a good idea for yourself or any buyer prospect.
It's nice to see someone trying to actually be legitimate (or possibly a well written scam). As you can see so many scams have made many of the members very bitter about using PP, and even relatively more trustable people such as myself find it hard to find anyone willing to trade PP. My suggestion would be to offer a service of buying non-refundable goods for people using your PP and in the process build some more trust and rep here before you go with pure PP trades. I wish you good luck tho.
That is totally possible for me. In fact, I can purchase any goods (as far as they are not illegal) with my PP account from any store that accepts it. A middleman would hold the coins till the tracking says delivered and the customer is happy with his item.I offered in the main post to buy gift cards and games because it's faster, but could be anything.
You will need to wait 45 - 180 days for the transactions to finalize depending if the account was funded via credit card. Good luck finding escrow to do that.
Again, this is not a good idea for yourself or any buyer prospect.
It's nice to see someone trying to actually be legitimate (or possibly a well written scam). As you can see so many scams have made many of the members very bitter about using PP, and even relatively more trustable people such as myself find it hard to find anyone willing to trade PP. My suggestion would be to offer a service of buying non-refundable goods for people using your PP and in the process build some more trust and rep here before you go with pure PP trades. I wish you good luck tho.
That is totally possible for me. In fact, I can purchase any goods (as far as they are not illegal) with my PP account from any store that accepts it. A middleman would hold the coins till the tracking says delivered and the customer is happy with his item.I offered in the main post to buy gift cards and games because it's faster, but could be anything.
"MY PAYPAL MANIFESTO: WHY PAYPAL SHOULD NEVER BE USED FOR CRYPTO!
OK, I'm not going to tell you a pack of lies. I'm only going to tell you the way it is and will substaiante what I say with links to various pages of the Official Paypal website and refer to a couple of Paypal emails which surfaced a while back regarding Paypal's internal policy on cyrptocurrency related transactions.
This is a very long post but I believe that it contains very important information regarding how you are best NOT separated without payment from your hard-earned cyrtocurrency, be it Bitcoin, Litecoin, Feathercoin or whatever happens to be your crypto of the day.
In this post I have attemtped to be as brief as possible while still imparting the main thrust of the information and to provide affirmative substantiation for my position that Paypal should never, ever be used for any kind of cryptocurrency related transaction.
Let us begin!
Examine this link to items excluded from the Paypal Buyer Protection Policy:
https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=JwCcRwwQG2rnG2tklpPM0v4HQPJvF3R4Mxy4BHrkY5xNlCnmkT91!-839210079?locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=C2&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9022&t=solutionTab&ft=browseTab&ps=solutionPanels&solutionId=1229191&isSrch=Yes
Please take careful note (From the citation):
Q: "What types of items are excluded from PayPal Buyer Protection?"
A: " Intangible items, including Digital Goods
(Q): If You Buy Crypto On ebay Are You Covered By Paypal Buyer Protection?:
(A): Yes, when you buy on www.ebay.com you are covered by PayPal Buyer Protection for eligible purchases.
https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=MbyyS1PbtZ8QTtGmKqdGvv0WPXR9jkh5hk2TvvllgbPRG6YwqKpV!-1109887407?t=solutionTab&ft=homeTab&ps=&solutionId=166697&locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=C2&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9022
In short, because Cryptocurrency is a digital item, buyers are NOT elegible for Paypal Buyer Protection!
Now let's take a look at the situation for sellers:
"(Q): What is PayPal Seller Protection?
(A): PayPal Seller Protection is a form of protection that we provide for sellers with a PayPal Account. It is available for eligible payments made through eBay and outside of eBay which involve buyers purchasing through PayPal Accounts in any country.
(Q): What kinds of transactions are not eligible for PayPal Seller Protection?
(A): Intangible items, including digital goods, travel tickets, gift vouchers and services.
Items that you deliver in person, including at a physical store."
"Prohibited Activities
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
(2) relate to transactions involving:
(h) involve currency exchanges ................................."
Let us examine further:
"PayPal requires pre-approval to accept payments for certain services as set out in 6 above and detailed in the chart below."
"Activities Requiring Approval:
"Airlines and scheduled or non-scheduled charters/jets/air taxi operators; collecting donations as a charity or non-profit organization; dealing in jewels, precious metals and stones; acting as a money transmitter or selling stored value cards; selling stocks, bonds, securities, options, futures (forex) or an investment interest in any entity or property; or providing escrow services."
Think that you'll cover yourself as a buyer or seller by writing some kind of "No Chargeback" agreement?
Think again! Such an agreement is a contract and Paypal Buyer/Seller Protection does NOT cover contracts!:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/contracts.html
"Policy overview
When you list an item that comes with a contract, you're responsible for following the rules of that contract. Since eBay isn't a party to these types of contracts, we don’t review contracts, adjudicate, or take sides in any contract disputes, or enforce terms from third parties restricting the resale of an item.
If you have any questions about your rights under a contract or agreement, get in touch with the company you have the contract with or talk to a lawyer for advice."
Think personal delivery will cover you as a seller or buyer?
Think twice!:
https://cms.paypal.com/c2/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US#7.%20PayPal%20Buyer%20Protection.
"Items which you collect in person, or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including at a retail point of sale."
Oops! There's another good idea down the tubes!
And last but not least; think you're covered by taking a "Personal Payment" or "Gift" through Paypal?
But NO!
Paypal will not charge back on such transactions but if the Paypal account has been funded by a credit card instead of the Paypal balance or a bank account, the buyer can go back on the seller through the issuing credit card company!
Here's the kicker!
It is against the User Agreement to prohibit payment through Paypal in transactions funded by credit card!
From the Paypal User Agreement:
Prohibited Items:
"Items equivalent to cash, including prepaid or gift cards."
Crypto may be considered by Paypal to be equivalent to cash at any thime and there you go!
https://cms.paypal.com/c2/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US#7.%20PayPal%20Buyer%20Protection.
And FINALLY:
Here are the true skunks in the woodpile!
Emails from Paypal regarding the use of the service for cryptcurrency related transactions:
(1) "Hello [name removed],
We have reviewed your PayPal account and found that you are selling bitcoin mining machines. Per our current Acceptable Use Policy for Money Service Businesses, PayPal may not be used to operate a currency exchange, bureau de change or check cashing business including the sale of bitcoins, bitcoin mining units, and other related bitcoin products.
To continue using your PayPal account, we need some additional information from you. Keep in mind that we have placed a limitation on your PayPal account, and this limitation will remain until we receive and review this information. Please provide us with the following:
• A brief affidavit stating that you understand and will comply with PayPal's terms and conditions. • The type of payments you will send and receive, including the type of goods or services you will accept payments for in the future.
Below you will find suggested affidavit language. Please make sure that the requested affidavit is signed and notarized.
I the undersigned do affirm that I understand and will comply with PayPal's policy regarding the use of PayPal Accounts to sell e-currency, such as bitcoins, bitcoin mining units, and other related bitcoin products. I understand that PayPal may not be used to sell e-currency, such as bitcoins, bitcoin mining units, and other related bitcoin products. I further affirm that any further detected violation of the policy may result in the immediate closure of, or restriction to access to the account.
Please log in to your account and go to the Resolution Center to find out what you need to do. Your account will remain limited until the issue is resolved.
Additionally, in the future, if we find that your account is selling bitcoin products, we will need to sever our business relationship with you.
We look forward to hearing from you and thank you for choosing PayPal as your business partner.
Sincerely, Mike PayPal Compliance Department PayPal, an eBay Company
Please do not reply to this email address as it is not monitored and we will not receive your response. You can get in touch with us by clicking "Contact Us" at the bottom of any PayPal page.
Copyright © 1999-2013 PayPal. All rights reserved."
Paypal Official Policy on Bitcoin related transactions:
(2) "Clarification on Bitcoin merchants using PayPal 6/10/2013 8:58 AM (-05:00) Impacted market: EMEA
We’ve received a number of escalations regarding Bitcoin merchants using PayPal. Any merchant seeking to sell or buy Bitcoins with PayPal is operating as a financial exchange. Please be aware that Financial Exchange merchants are prohibited unless pre-approved by PayPal. This process involves getting VP approvals from both Risk and Compliance, and only licensed financial institutions are considered.
Merchant contacts
If we receive contacts on Bitcoin sales, instead of escalating further, kindly advise customers that they need to be licensed financial institutions to be considered for approval. However, there are some acceptable cases, as outlined below.
Acceptable Bitcoin business models for PayPal
Merchants with a business model that is related to Bitcoin but does not sell Bitcoins may be acceptable. For example: Merchants offering Bitcoin education packages Merchants selling computer hardware designed specifically for mining Bitcoins. In this case, kindly ensure that the merchant isn’t pre-selling and actually has the equipment ready to deliver.
Please note – All Bitcoin-related e-commerce should be considered high risk."
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1g23w2/paypal_email_to_employees_policy_regarding_bitcoin/
Paypal can lock up BOTH the seller and buyer accounts for up to 180 days on the basis of "suspicious transactions"!
In short.........................
DO NOT USE PAYPAL FOR ANYTHING CONNECTED WITH CRYPTOCURRENCY IF YOU WANT TO GET PAID AND STAY PAID!
My $.02.
Thank you for reading!"
OK, I'm not going to tell you a pack of lies. I'm only going to tell you the way it is and will substaiante what I say with links to various pages of the Official Paypal website and refer to a couple of Paypal emails which surfaced a while back regarding Paypal's internal policy on cyrptocurrency related transactions.
This is a very long post but I believe that it contains very important information regarding how you are best NOT separated without payment from your hard-earned cyrtocurrency, be it Bitcoin, Litecoin, Feathercoin or whatever happens to be your crypto of the day.
In this post I have attemtped to be as brief as possible while still imparting the main thrust of the information and to provide affirmative substantiation for my position that Paypal should never, ever be used for any kind of cryptocurrency related transaction.
Let us begin!
Examine this link to items excluded from the Paypal Buyer Protection Policy:
https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=JwCcRwwQG2rnG2tklpPM0v4HQPJvF3R4Mxy4BHrkY5xNlCnmkT91!-839210079?locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=C2&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9022&t=solutionTab&ft=browseTab&ps=solutionPanels&solutionId=1229191&isSrch=Yes
Please take careful note (From the citation):
Q: "What types of items are excluded from PayPal Buyer Protection?"
A: " Intangible items, including Digital Goods
(Q): If You Buy Crypto On ebay Are You Covered By Paypal Buyer Protection?:
(A): Yes, when you buy on www.ebay.com you are covered by PayPal Buyer Protection for eligible purchases.
https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=MbyyS1PbtZ8QTtGmKqdGvv0WPXR9jkh5hk2TvvllgbPRG6YwqKpV!-1109887407?t=solutionTab&ft=homeTab&ps=&solutionId=166697&locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=C2&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9022
In short, because Cryptocurrency is a digital item, buyers are NOT elegible for Paypal Buyer Protection!
Now let's take a look at the situation for sellers:
"(Q): What is PayPal Seller Protection?
(A): PayPal Seller Protection is a form of protection that we provide for sellers with a PayPal Account. It is available for eligible payments made through eBay and outside of eBay which involve buyers purchasing through PayPal Accounts in any country.
(Q): What kinds of transactions are not eligible for PayPal Seller Protection?
(A): Intangible items, including digital goods, travel tickets, gift vouchers and services.
Items that you deliver in person, including at a physical store."
"Prohibited Activities
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
(2) relate to transactions involving:
(h) involve currency exchanges ................................."
Let us examine further:
"PayPal requires pre-approval to accept payments for certain services as set out in 6 above and detailed in the chart below."
"Activities Requiring Approval:
"Airlines and scheduled or non-scheduled charters/jets/air taxi operators; collecting donations as a charity or non-profit organization; dealing in jewels, precious metals and stones; acting as a money transmitter or selling stored value cards; selling stocks, bonds, securities, options, futures (forex) or an investment interest in any entity or property; or providing escrow services."
Think that you'll cover yourself as a buyer or seller by writing some kind of "No Chargeback" agreement?
Think again! Such an agreement is a contract and Paypal Buyer/Seller Protection does NOT cover contracts!:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/contracts.html
"Policy overview
When you list an item that comes with a contract, you're responsible for following the rules of that contract. Since eBay isn't a party to these types of contracts, we don’t review contracts, adjudicate, or take sides in any contract disputes, or enforce terms from third parties restricting the resale of an item.
If you have any questions about your rights under a contract or agreement, get in touch with the company you have the contract with or talk to a lawyer for advice."
Think personal delivery will cover you as a seller or buyer?
Think twice!:
https://cms.paypal.com/c2/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US#7.%20PayPal%20Buyer%20Protection.
"Items which you collect in person, or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including at a retail point of sale."
Oops! There's another good idea down the tubes!
And last but not least; think you're covered by taking a "Personal Payment" or "Gift" through Paypal?
But NO!
Paypal will not charge back on such transactions but if the Paypal account has been funded by a credit card instead of the Paypal balance or a bank account, the buyer can go back on the seller through the issuing credit card company!
Here's the kicker!
It is against the User Agreement to prohibit payment through Paypal in transactions funded by credit card!
From the Paypal User Agreement:
Prohibited Items:
"Items equivalent to cash, including prepaid or gift cards."
Crypto may be considered by Paypal to be equivalent to cash at any thime and there you go!
https://cms.paypal.com/c2/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US#7.%20PayPal%20Buyer%20Protection.
And FINALLY:
Here are the true skunks in the woodpile!
Emails from Paypal regarding the use of the service for cryptcurrency related transactions:
(1) "Hello [name removed],
We have reviewed your PayPal account and found that you are selling bitcoin mining machines. Per our current Acceptable Use Policy for Money Service Businesses, PayPal may not be used to operate a currency exchange, bureau de change or check cashing business including the sale of bitcoins, bitcoin mining units, and other related bitcoin products.
To continue using your PayPal account, we need some additional information from you. Keep in mind that we have placed a limitation on your PayPal account, and this limitation will remain until we receive and review this information. Please provide us with the following:
• A brief affidavit stating that you understand and will comply with PayPal's terms and conditions. • The type of payments you will send and receive, including the type of goods or services you will accept payments for in the future.
Below you will find suggested affidavit language. Please make sure that the requested affidavit is signed and notarized.
I the undersigned do affirm that I understand and will comply with PayPal's policy regarding the use of PayPal Accounts to sell e-currency, such as bitcoins, bitcoin mining units, and other related bitcoin products. I understand that PayPal may not be used to sell e-currency, such as bitcoins, bitcoin mining units, and other related bitcoin products. I further affirm that any further detected violation of the policy may result in the immediate closure of, or restriction to access to the account.
Please log in to your account and go to the Resolution Center to find out what you need to do. Your account will remain limited until the issue is resolved.
Additionally, in the future, if we find that your account is selling bitcoin products, we will need to sever our business relationship with you.
We look forward to hearing from you and thank you for choosing PayPal as your business partner.
Sincerely, Mike PayPal Compliance Department PayPal, an eBay Company
Please do not reply to this email address as it is not monitored and we will not receive your response. You can get in touch with us by clicking "Contact Us" at the bottom of any PayPal page.
Copyright © 1999-2013 PayPal. All rights reserved."
Paypal Official Policy on Bitcoin related transactions:
(2) "Clarification on Bitcoin merchants using PayPal 6/10/2013 8:58 AM (-05:00) Impacted market: EMEA
We’ve received a number of escalations regarding Bitcoin merchants using PayPal. Any merchant seeking to sell or buy Bitcoins with PayPal is operating as a financial exchange. Please be aware that Financial Exchange merchants are prohibited unless pre-approved by PayPal. This process involves getting VP approvals from both Risk and Compliance, and only licensed financial institutions are considered.
Merchant contacts
If we receive contacts on Bitcoin sales, instead of escalating further, kindly advise customers that they need to be licensed financial institutions to be considered for approval. However, there are some acceptable cases, as outlined below.
Acceptable Bitcoin business models for PayPal
Merchants with a business model that is related to Bitcoin but does not sell Bitcoins may be acceptable. For example: Merchants offering Bitcoin education packages Merchants selling computer hardware designed specifically for mining Bitcoins. In this case, kindly ensure that the merchant isn’t pre-selling and actually has the equipment ready to deliver.
Please note – All Bitcoin-related e-commerce should be considered high risk."
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1g23w2/paypal_email_to_employees_policy_regarding_bitcoin/
Paypal can lock up BOTH the seller and buyer accounts for up to 180 days on the basis of "suspicious transactions"!
In short.........................
DO NOT USE PAYPAL FOR ANYTHING CONNECTED WITH CRYPTOCURRENCY IF YOU WANT TO GET PAID AND STAY PAID!
My $.02.
Thank you for reading!"
Or I am a honest person. Why everyone on the internet have to be bad? I said I can also pay with any gift cards or some other thing that I can buy with Paypal.
Scumbag.
Scumbag.
It's nice to see someone trying to actually be legitimate (or possibly a well written scam). As you can see so many scams have made many of the members very bitter about using PP, and even relatively more trustable people such as myself find it hard to find anyone willing to trade PP. My suggestion would be to offer a service of buying non-refundable goods for people using your PP and in the process build some more trust and rep here before you go with pure PP trades. I wish you good luck tho.
WHY are people doing this? This is just so wrong. Are these guys thinking there might be a few stupid ones on this forum who will fall for this! Just don't do this. It's wrong in every aspect. Bitcoins and Paypal do NOT mix.
I can think of a few scenarios behind these offers. By chance, they bagged a victim's account (that is, an innocent victim fell for one of those phishing emails or keylogger malware). Then a scammer has this chance to use that account to buy coins here.
Everybody here-- Don't let this strategy flourish. Just don't accept Paypal from newbies and they will eventually have to stop relying on it as a coin-churning source!
Paypal and Bitcoins do not mix. They are incompatible. Bitcoins is the today and future of payment systems. Paypal is yesterday and the Middle Ages of paying and getting paid. They will eat your money alive and leave you hungry for 180 days when they lock that account you painstakingly verified!
Or I am a honest person. Why everyone on the internet have to be bad? I said I can also pay with any gift cards or some other thing that I can buy with Paypal.I can think of a few scenarios behind these offers. By chance, they bagged a victim's account (that is, an innocent victim fell for one of those phishing emails or keylogger malware). Then a scammer has this chance to use that account to buy coins here.
Everybody here-- Don't let this strategy flourish. Just don't accept Paypal from newbies and they will eventually have to stop relying on it as a coin-churning source!
Paypal and Bitcoins do not mix. They are incompatible. Bitcoins is the today and future of payment systems. Paypal is yesterday and the Middle Ages of paying and getting paid. They will eat your money alive and leave you hungry for 180 days when they lock that account you painstakingly verified!
Scumbag.
I got $5000 chargeback after 2 weeks transaction using paypal. it's made me pretentious
Not sure you understand the meaning of this word.
Sure let's trade! You send payment and in 90 days after no chargeback I'll have the escrow release the BTC. Cause you'd understand we have to be safe here. 
sent pm...
Its never ok to use Paypal for trading with bitcoin and also the middleman you are talking about will be holding your funds in his Paypal ofcourse so the risk is for both lets say if you chargeback then the seller will be scammed of course and there is a risk for the middleman that his account will Paypal might get freeze and the limit is for straight 180 days 
edit: I don't think you will get a middleman and a seller as far as it includes paypal. Good luck though
edit: I don't think you will get a middleman and a seller as far as it includes paypal. Good luck though
But you know? Paypal = high risk? using middleman unusable,because paypal can made chargeback & dispute.
I know that, as I have been working with Paypal for almost 3 years now. That's why I offer to show my ID and anything you want to verify from me to the middleman. I wish I could do something else, but I can't.I got $5000 chargeback after 2 weeks transaction using paypal. it's made me pretentious
But you know? Paypal = high risk? using middleman unusable,because paypal can made chargeback & dispute.
I know that, as I have been working with Paypal for almost 3 years now. That's why I offer to show my ID and anything you want to verify from me to the middleman. I wish I could do something else, but I can't. Hello,
I know I'm new on bitcointalk and that there's a sticky in this section for people to be aware of Paypal trades. Anyways, I want to offer my services here. I have money flowing in constantly into my Paypal account, because I'm a successful ebay seller. I have (almost) no use for Paypal and I don't like withdrawing it via SEPA transfer because I'm not a company and I don't want the Treasury Dpt. to make me pay taxes and fees.
Well, I'm buying as much BTC as I can with my Paypal. I get around 2000€ - 3000€ net in my Paypal account per month. I can prove a middleman or a trusted guy on the forum my identity, my ebay account and everything the BTC sellers want to check. Of course, I'm not going to show my ID to everyone of you.
I will do 1:1 on bitstamp rates at the time of exchanging and we can use a middleman. If you want to hold my PP funds for a few days, it is ok as far as we use a middleman. We pay middleman fees half half.
TL;DR: I'm buying BTC for my Paypal on 1:1 @ bitstamp rates. Middleman preferred. We pay fees half half.
EDIT: I forgot to say I can buy anything for you aswell that can be purchased with Paypal (as far as it's not illegal). Something like cards from http://pcgamesupply.com
I know I'm new on bitcointalk and that there's a sticky in this section for people to be aware of Paypal trades. Anyways, I want to offer my services here. I have money flowing in constantly into my Paypal account, because I'm a successful ebay seller. I have (almost) no use for Paypal and I don't like withdrawing it via SEPA transfer because I'm not a company and I don't want the Treasury Dpt. to make me pay taxes and fees.
Well, I'm buying as much BTC as I can with my Paypal. I get around 2000€ - 3000€ net in my Paypal account per month. I can prove a middleman or a trusted guy on the forum my identity, my ebay account and everything the BTC sellers want to check. Of course, I'm not going to show my ID to everyone of you.
I will do 1:1 on bitstamp rates at the time of exchanging and we can use a middleman. If you want to hold my PP funds for a few days, it is ok as far as we use a middleman. We pay middleman fees half half.
TL;DR: I'm buying BTC for my Paypal on 1:1 @ bitstamp rates. Middleman preferred. We pay fees half half.
EDIT: I forgot to say I can buy anything for you aswell that can be purchased with Paypal (as far as it's not illegal). Something like cards from http://pcgamesupply.com
But you know? Paypal = high risk? using middleman unusable,because paypal can made chargeback & dispute.
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