Hardware Wallets Lifespan | Bitcointalksearch.org

dkbit98

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Quote from: examplens on April 05, 2023, 07:38:07 AM

why is the battery on the Ledger so necessary, does it become completely useless without it?
Can't the device be used without batteries, just connected to the computer and using the power required to work from there?

People used it mostly as portable device in combination smartphone connection, and for that you need battery.
You can't use it normally without battery unless you remove the battery and/or cover the contacts inside..
That means you have to be ready for warranty to be voided in this case, but I think they are sending replacement devices while in warranty.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Maus0728 on March 30, 2023, 11:21:00 AM

I have had my old Ledger Nano S for almost 2 years before I replaced the OLED screen because the brightness was slowly fading to the point where the display was barely visible^[1]. On the other hand, I have had my Trezor One for almost 1.6 years now without any software or hardware issues.

However, the longevity of any hardware wallet on the market still depends on how frequently it is used. Therefore, it is extremely important to always have your seed phrase backed up on secure storage in case something goes wrong or the hardware breaks.

Not pretty sure how the humidity could affect the hardware though..

[1] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5406622

I still have my Trezor One, which I bought probably five years ago? I bought it about one year after it was first released for public use. But I never used it that much because my main wallet is in cold storage in an offline computer. My other wallets have small amount of Bitcoin which don't really need a Trezor. I'm plugging it in right now, and the lights still go on. I believe it will continue to function for five more years.

Cool

examplens

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Quote from: dkbit98 on March 31, 2023, 09:50:25 AM

Ledger nano X has many problems with battery, and plastic for all their models is really cheap and it breaks easily, so you have to be really careful.

why is the battery on the Ledger so necessary, does it become completely useless without it?
Can't the device be used without batteries, just connected to the computer and using the power required to work from there?

SFR10

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Quote from: WillyAp on March 30, 2023, 11:33:33 AM

I worry about using a harware wallet and once I need to sell the hardware fails.

It's worth noting that "used" hardware wallets ^{[in general]} don't have a resale value ^{[selling an unused HW is hard, let alone a used one (I'm referring to normal people, as opposed to an official reseller of a certain brand)]}!
^{- Considering that there's a very high chance of getting a modified version in secondhand markets, most buyers tend to stay away from that route!}

Quote from: WillyAp on April 01, 2023, 03:41:43 PM

Quote from: Hispo on April 01, 2023, 02:53:52 PM

It is rather a collectible than a wallet people would want to use and keep for its durability. Roll Eyes

I tend to see it the same way.

You shouldn't ^{[for the most part (unless you own a customized version)]} if you're going to only buy one!

WillyAp

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Quote from: Hispo on April 03, 2023, 01:16:31 PM

If they can afford to implement a titanium casing they should have no problem to also include proper electrical isolation between the casing and the electronics. I do not have a corazon and I doubt anyone would open one just to check if it has actual isolation, though.

It's not logical how you think. And I have no intention of passing insults here Wink

A higher price does not guarantee a better quality, that is, unfortunately, not the case.

Hispo

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Quote from: DaveF on April 03, 2023, 05:54:06 AM

Quote from: Lucius on April 03, 2023, 05:02:39 AM

Of course it's luxury, but still, the titanium case will protect the electronics much better than ordinary plastic, although I can't say if it justifies such a high price. For someone who has a lot of money and may be a public figure who deals with cryptocurrencies, a device like this is certainly something that can set him apart from the rest.

However, titanium still is slightly electrically conductive unlike plastic. So the argument could be made that static electricity or other shock type events that would not happen with a plastic case have a greater chance of happening with titanium.

Not something that you would really have to loose sleep over worrying about, but it still has the potential to happen.

I still think more comes down to the board and general circuit construction then just physical aspects of the case.

-Dave

If they can afford to implement a titanium casing they should have no problem to also include proper electrical isolation between the casing and the electronics. I do not have a corazon and I doubt anyone would open one just to check if it has actual isolation, though.

I just wish Trezor could sell some steel casing without adding a premium price tag to them. Granted, their business model highly depends on the selling of hardware (their software is free), but charging hundreds of dollars for an aluminum casing is rather silly. Roll Eyes

DaveF

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Quote from: Lucius on April 03, 2023, 05:02:39 AM

Of course it's luxury, but still, the titanium case will protect the electronics much better than ordinary plastic, although I can't say if it justifies such a high price. For someone who has a lot of money and may be a public figure who deals with cryptocurrencies, a device like this is certainly something that can set him apart from the rest.

However, titanium still is slightly electrically conductive unlike plastic. So the argument could be made that static electricity or other shock type events that would not happen with a plastic case have a greater chance of happening with titanium.

Not something that you would really have to loose sleep over worrying about, but it still has the potential to happen.

I still think more comes down to the board and general circuit construction then just physical aspects of the case.

-Dave

Lucius

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Quote from: Hispo on April 02, 2023, 03:12:11 PM

I was also aware of the Corazon products and spite of the apparent high quality, I think the usage of titanium and fancy colors for a HW casing is a little bit too exotic, it is rather a luxurious product rather than one aiming to protect the electronic part of the wallet.

Of course it's luxury, but still, the titanium case will protect the electronics much better than ordinary plastic, although I can't say if it justifies such a high price. For someone who has a lot of money and may be a public figure who deals with cryptocurrencies, a device like this is certainly something that can set him apart from the rest.

Quote from: Hispo on April 02, 2023, 03:12:11 PM

Also, I think even though Trezor is not water-proof, they seem to have some inherent resistance towards moisture.

A few years ago, there was a case where the T model survived a fire and the extinguishing of that same fire, i.e. it was still working after that. I know of one case when one of these was used as a toy for a dog, and in such a case the metal housing would definitely come into its own.

Hispo

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Quote from: Lucius on April 02, 2023, 06:17:50 AM

Quote from: Hispo on April 01, 2023, 02:53:52 PM

I have seen reports of people who have keep their Trezors Ones up to 5 years without problems, while also others who claim some problems with the screen started to appear around the 2-3 years period.
~snip~

I have had a Nano S for about 5 years and it still works like the first day it was bought, but I can say for myself that I am a person who takes care of my things much more than the average person. Technical problems are always possible, but many malfunctions of electronic devices are the result of incorrect handling, inadequate storage, and sometimes a bad power network that can damage such devices due to sudden and frequent voltage changes and power outages.

Quote from: hZti on April 02, 2023, 05:24:48 AM

Still I would like more high quality hardware wallets, as many are made of cheap plastics. I think even high quality plastics could already make a huge difference.

You forget that the use of higher quality materials means a higher price, and that many still complain that hardware wallets are too expensive, even though you can buy them for less than $50. Manufacturers have to adapt to what the market is looking for, which is cheaper devices that are therefore made of lower quality materials.

Unfortunately, this quality decreased even more after the material prices skyrocketed, but I think that everything has its price, as well as that every product has its buyer. There is HW that costs as much as $2000, and it seems to be sold out.

I was also aware of the Corazon products and spite of the apparent high quality, I think the usage of titanium and fancy colors for a HW casing is a little bit too exotic, it is rather a luxurious product rather than one aiming to protect the electronic part of the wallet.

I would be happy with a simple stainless steel casing which added sturdiness and weight to the Trezor. Actually, I would love to know if there is some CNC shop or provider who would be willing to machine steel casings and ship them internationally. That is something I would pay for, however I have got the feeling it would also be quite expensive to hire a CNC company to do something that specific.

Also, I think even though Trezor is not water-proof, they seem to have some inherent resistance towards moisture.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TREZOR/comments/7hkb1i/trezor_can_be_used_to_launder_money/

Quote

I left my Trezor in the front pocket of my jeans and threw them in the hamper. When my fiance threw everything in the wash, she didnt notice it in the jeans and it went in with them!

I am happy to report that the Trezor came out clean as a whistle and it still worked! Fortunately I have my seed words backed up in a safe place. Even though I lucked out, I would not recommend this method of cleaning to anyone else.

hZti

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It’s true that for 90% of Bitcoin holders it should be as cheap as possible to not completely ruin their bitcoin investment. If we talk about durability we should also think that there are companies that store billions of dollars in bitcoin and they would probably don’t mind to even pay way more than 2 grand.

Lucius

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Quote from: Hispo on April 01, 2023, 02:53:52 PM

I have seen reports of people who have keep their Trezors Ones up to 5 years without problems, while also others who claim some problems with the screen started to appear around the 2-3 years period.
~snip~

I have had a Nano S for about 5 years and it still works like the first day it was bought, but I can say for myself that I am a person who takes care of my things much more than the average person. Technical problems are always possible, but many malfunctions of electronic devices are the result of incorrect handling, inadequate storage, and sometimes a bad power network that can damage such devices due to sudden and frequent voltage changes and power outages.

Quote from: hZti on April 02, 2023, 05:24:48 AM

Still I would like more high quality hardware wallets, as many are made of cheap plastics. I think even high quality plastics could already make a huge difference.

You forget that the use of higher quality materials means a higher price, and that many still complain that hardware wallets are too expensive, even though you can buy them for less than $50. Manufacturers have to adapt to what the market is looking for, which is cheaper devices that are therefore made of lower quality materials.

Unfortunately, this quality decreased even more after the material prices skyrocketed, but I think that everything has its price, as well as that every product has its buyer. There is HW that costs as much as $2000, and it seems to be sold out.

hZti

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I would also love the aluminium version but I think that it would basically add nothing to durability since the worst enemy would be moisture. Still I would like more high quality hardware wallets, as many are made of cheap plastics. I think even high quality plastics could already make a huge difference.

WillyAp

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Quote from: Hispo on April 01, 2023, 02:53:52 PM

It is rather a collectible than a wallet people would want to use and keep for its durability. Roll Eyes

I tend to see it the same way.

Hispo

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I have seen reports of people who have keep their Trezors Ones up to 5 years without problems, while also others who claim some problems with the screen started to appear around the 2-3 years period.

In my personal case,I have had one for around 2 years and it everything seems to be normal, still works as a charm. If I was in my power I would have gotten the aluminum version of the Trezor, but the price (in my opinion) is/was out of proportion.

It is rather a collectible than a wallet people would want to use and keep for its durability. Roll Eyes

hZti

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Even if the theoretical lifespan of your hardware wallet would be infinite, you would have to make a metal beackup or something similar. Because every hardware computer device can be easily destroyed by moisture or electricity. This can even happen on the first day of ownership, so it is better to be safe then sorry in this matter.

hugeblack

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Quote from: WillyAp on March 31, 2023, 05:00:09 PM

Yeah and imagine you need a little from that treasure and once you plug it in yoz see nil which willmake for a happy cold feeling.

I'm sorry to be a little OFFTOPIC, but has anyone made reviews? Just like this tests ----> https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/
Or are there any accessories that enhance the durability of these devices, as we find in smart phones.

Generally, you should not trust an electronic device when it comes to your coins, always keep several backup copies.

Lucius

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Quote from: WillyAp on March 31, 2023, 05:00:09 PM

Yeah and imagine you need a little from that treasure and once you plug it in yoz see nil which willmake for a happy cold feeling.

This is why you have a backup that consists of 12 or 24 words, which, if stored correctly, ensures that you can perform a wallet recovery at any time in the future. Of course, everyone would like HW to last as long as possible, but buy any electronic device and there is a high probability that it will break within 5 years or even earlier. In the past, such devices were made to last, today they are made so that their duration is limited, and all in order to buy a new device as soon as possible.

WillyAp

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Quote from: Husires on March 31, 2023, 04:05:42 PM

I think that the heat and shocks are the ones that will shorten its life significantly

Yeah and imagine you need a little from that treasure and once you plug it in you see nil which will make for a happy cold feeling.

Husires

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Most of its parts are compared with the flash drive, so in normal room conditions and away from heat and dust, it is supposed to give you an average of about twenty-five years at least, during that period you may need to change the battery and screen several times.
I think that the heat and shocks are the ones that will shorten its life significantly

WillyAp

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Quote from: m2017 on March 31, 2023, 01:12:51 PM

Probably the lifespan of a HW device will depend on how often you use it, as well as how you keep it (how careful you use it).

This is a common problem when flash drives fail (sudden and unpredictable).

Quote from: dkbit98 on March 31, 2023, 09:50:25 AM

SSD drives are not the same as cheap USB flash drives, and they can last much longer if they are from Samsung (even older models), and if they have good controllers.
Hardware wallets have nothing in common with SSD or flash drives.

Can you elaborate on this? OP is interested in exactly this (if I understand correctly). What is the probability that a hardware wallet will fail just as easily as a flash drive?

Extactly you nailed it.
I don 't own a entire BTC and I wish not too loose any due to a non recoverable sector.

Topic: Hardware Wallets Lifespan (Read 339 times)