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Topic: Heat from Mining efficiency (Read 3457 times)

hero member
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firstbits.com/1kznfw
October 03, 2012, 06:15:04 PM
#27
I knwo your POINT, but because I'm libertarian that would make the appeal of doing GEOTHERMAL because it has a tax credit LESS effective

I guess it depends on your marginal rate. If you are have a 35% marginal rate, then the 33% you get back has nothing to do with it because the government still took 2% they shouldn't have. If you have a 28% marginal rate, then yeah, you're getting 5% for free. But regardless, it's still an effective investment, even with the government taking their full cut.
legendary
Activity: 4354
Merit: 3614
what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?
October 03, 2012, 05:47:51 PM
#26
Just because you disagree with a policy, it doesn't make it wrong or hypocritical to take advantage of that policy.
I knwo your POINT, but because I'm libertarian that would make the appeal of doing GEOTHERMAL because it has a tax credit LESS effective

ok, so dont use the credit. it will just be a longer time for payback.

do it anyway. its clean, very even heating/cooling. and (can be) maintained to 1 degree F at all times, you dont have to use timers to setback temps at night or whatever, although you can. its generally most efficient to leave the house @ 70 F [or whatever] day and night.

as a bonus, your mining waste heat will be used to preheat your hot water in the summer when cooling your house.

420
hero member
Activity: 756
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October 03, 2012, 02:15:03 PM
#25
30 percent federal tax credit for geothermal right now.
but we're libertarian

Just because you disagree with a policy, it doesn't make it wrong or hypocritical to take advantage of that policy.

I'll give an example of Social Security. I'm against the collection of funds in this way but when I reach age 67, I'll take whatever payments are available. If they hadn't taken the money from me, then I would have invested it on my own and been able to get the benefit from that, but because they did take the money, all I'm doing is trying to recoup the losses.

Similarily, here, the government should be taxing 0%, but they aren't so any tax credit is just trying to get back to normal. My preference would be that they do not subsidize any energy including the coal plants, and that they strictly enforce property rights by which companies would be liable for any pollution that goes outside their property. But instead, we have a system that showers subsidies to polluting energy and them indemnifies them against their pollution, and trickles some to clean energy in a pathetic attempt to appear balanced.

I knwo your POINT, but because I'm libertarian that would make the appeal of doing GEOTHERMAL because it has a tax credit LESS effective
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
firstbits.com/1kznfw
October 02, 2012, 12:19:23 PM
#24
30 percent federal tax credit for geothermal right now.
but we're libertarian

Just because you disagree with a policy, it doesn't make it wrong or hypocritical to take advantage of that policy.

I'll give an example of Social Security. I'm against the collection of funds in this way but when I reach age 67, I'll take whatever payments are available. If they hadn't taken the money from me, then I would have invested it on my own and been able to get the benefit from that, but because they did take the money, all I'm doing is trying to recoup the losses.

Similarily, here, the government should be taxing 0%, but they aren't so any tax credit is just trying to get back to normal. My preference would be that they do not subsidize any energy including the coal plants, and that they strictly enforce property rights by which companies would be liable for any pollution that goes outside their property. But instead, we have a system that showers subsidies to polluting energy and them indemnifies them against their pollution, and trickles some to clean energy in a pathetic attempt to appear balanced.
420
hero member
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October 02, 2012, 03:52:22 AM
#23
Maybe I can convince my landlord to get a geothermal system if the utility company will allow some sort of tax break or an incentive program or something.

30 percent federal tax credit for geothermal right now.

but we're libertarian
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
firstbits.com/1kznfw
October 02, 2012, 12:30:39 AM
#22
if you are paying for heat, I would say that it could pay for itself in 3-5 years.

we figure our geothermal system will have payed for itself in 5-7 years.

EDIT: thats the combined savings on air conditioning, hot water and heat, all which are geothermal now.

Yeah, yours is a closed loop. I've only looked at open loops because we have the water table to support them here, and they are cheaper to install and and more efficient.
legendary
Activity: 4354
Merit: 3614
what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?
October 01, 2012, 07:41:11 PM
#21
if you are paying for heat, I would say that it could pay for itself in 3-5 years.

we figure our geothermal system will have payed for itself in 5-7 years.

EDIT: thats the combined savings on air conditioning, hot water and heat, all which are geothermal now.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
firstbits.com/1kznfw
October 01, 2012, 07:32:31 PM
#20
Maybe I can convince my landlord to get a geothermal system if the utility company will allow some sort of tax break or an incentive program or something.

30 percent federal tax credit for geothermal right now.

Oh wow thanks. That is promising / wonder how it works out for rental properties.

Do you have a citation from somewhere online so other people (actual home owners) could benefit even if it likely doesn't apply to my case as I'm not a home owner?

Here's a reference:
http://energytaxincentives.org/business/renewables.php#geothermalhp
The tax credit goes to 2016. It doesn't apply to rental properties, but if you are paying for heat, I would say that it could pay for itself in 3-5 years.
legendary
Activity: 4354
Merit: 3614
what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?
October 01, 2012, 07:30:12 PM
#19
30 percent federal tax credit for geothermal right now.

Oh wow thanks. That is promising / wonder how it works out for rental properties.

Do you have a citation from somewhere online so other people (actual home owners) could benefit even if it likely doesn't apply to my case as I'm not a home owner?


http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index.

Quote
What is included in the Tax Credit?

Tax Credit:
    30% of cost with no upper limit
Expires:
    December 31, 2016
Details:
    Existing homes & new construction qualify. Both principal residences and second homes qualify. Rentals do not qualify.

    Geothermal Heat Pumps
    Small Wind Turbines (Residential)
    Solar Energy Systems

Tax Credit:
    Credit Details: 30% of the cost, up to $500 per .5 kW of power capacity
Expires:
    December 31, 2016
Details:
    Existing homes & new construction qualify. Must be your principal residence. Rentals and second homes do not qualify.



sr. member
Activity: 369
Merit: 250
October 01, 2012, 07:23:12 PM
#18
Maybe I can convince my landlord to get a geothermal system if the utility company will allow some sort of tax break or an incentive program or something.

30 percent federal tax credit for geothermal right now.

Oh wow thanks. That is promising / wonder how it works out for rental properties.

Do you have a citation from somewhere online so other people (actual home owners) could benefit even if it likely doesn't apply to my case as I'm not a home owner?
legendary
Activity: 4354
Merit: 3614
what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?
October 01, 2012, 05:53:52 PM
#17
Maybe I can convince my landlord to get a geothermal system if the utility company will allow some sort of tax break or an incentive program or something.

30 percent federal tax credit for geothermal right now.
legendary
Activity: 4354
Merit: 3614
what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?
October 01, 2012, 05:24:14 PM
#16

Another option for economics and efficiency is geothermal.

can u provide link, i forget what that means, using earth heat?

Here's a basics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ajqiPe_9Ko

They have a loop that pumps ground water up to near the surface. This water is normally about 60-70 degrees F (15-20 C) even during the winter. Then there is a "heat pump" that extracts heat from the water and warms the air. This is the exact opposite action as an air conditioner, and because most heat pumps are reversible, it can be used to provide cold air in the summer (it's more efficient to pump heat into 70 degree water vs 90 degree air). Because the heat really comes from the ground water and not the energy source, it produces more heat than you spend.

thats not what my geothermal system is. it is a closed loop: 2000 feet of pipe with antifreeze in it, buried 5 feet down in my back yard.

ground temp  5 feet down is around 50F year round in my area (northeast USA), and my system dumps heat into it in the summer, and draws heat from it in the winter.

as a bonus, when cooling my house some of the heat removed is used to preheat my hot water (desuperheater). so last summer my waste heat from the miners actually was used to heat hot water. slick.
sr. member
Activity: 369
Merit: 250
October 01, 2012, 04:57:21 PM
#15
I don't think I made any good points that was someone else's credit, except..

geothermal is the future!

Indeed. My parents use a central-heating type heat pump (apparently, I just looked it up and ALL heatpumps for HVAC systems are generally considered "geothermal" -- learn something every day)

Their energy bill when climate control is needed is much better than mine (in part because they live somewhere with lower energy costs)

Maybe I can convince my landlord to get a geothermal system if the utility company will allow some sort of tax break or an incentive program or something.

For now though, I'm happy to know that as per the original post:

If you are using an electric heater (wall heater, space heater or otherwise) it is just as efficient to leave your computer running (minus wear and tear costs) ... so if I want to mine bitcoin it is fine to do during the winter months.



Edited to add: ... ok I just caught myself repeating. Gonna stop posting on this thread now
420
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
October 01, 2012, 04:34:36 PM
#14
I don't think I made any good points that was someone else's credit, except..

geothermal is the future!
sr. member
Activity: 369
Merit: 250
October 01, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
#13
gas (or any combustable heating source) can never be more than 100% efficient.  Law of conservation of energy.  1 BTU of chemical energy in natural gas can at most produce 1 BTU of usable heat.

The very best modern furnaces are 92% to 97% efficient.  Older cheaper furnaces are in the 80%.  If you have a furnace more than 20 years old it is likely is sub 80% efficiency.  

((...snip...))

Yeah, furances aren't that great. My landlord doesn't have central heating installed for my appartment (heat pump or otherwise) and the only heat we're allowed to use (per terms of the lease) is the electric heater installed in the wall. That has a 100% efficiency for confirting electricity to heat.

100% of electricity used by a computer comes out as heat. ANY electricity coming into a building and being used is ALWAYS converted 100% into heat... with only two main exceptions:

  • If you have tons of light indoors and it is pouring out the windows, some of that energy escapes (even though glass is opaque to infra red)
  • Amateur radio and you are broadcasting. You are actively sending RF out
  • reverse exception being if you have a heat pump. Those things use magic though so they don't count.  Huh




((...snip...))

Now electrical resitance heating will always be 100% efficient (it simply can't be anything else).  A good heat pump (as long as you outside air doesn't get below 20F or so) can be 200% to 300% efficient but that doesn't apply to mining.    

At best a furnace* is going to be 97% efficient but most are in the 80% range.  Still at $8.43 / $20.52 =  41% even a malfunctioning furnace operating at 50% efficiency is going to be cheaper.   Nat gas is just crazy cheap in the US.  We keep finding more and more of it.   Hell they might start bringing back natural gas fired heat pumps again.

* Since there seems to be confusion by furnace I mean a device which burns combustible material (i.e. natural gas, propane, fuel oil, wood, garbage, human waste, etc).  Electric heat would be either resistance (100% efficiency) or heat pump (COP of >1 = >100% "efficiency").  At least in the US using the term furnace to refer to electric heat would be uncommon.


Thanks DeathAndTaxes... but actually, the modern ones are even more efficient than you stated:


 Grin Prepare for your mind to be blown:


Water-to-Air:
Closed Loop: >=17.1 EER; >=3.6 COP
Open Loop: >=21.1 EER; >=4.1 COP
 
Water-to-Water:
Closed Loop: >=16.1 EER; >=3.1 COP
Open Loop: >=20.1 EER; >=3.5 COP

Direct Geoexchange (DGX): >=16 EER; >= 3.6 COP


More heat than you put into it. It's basically an air conditioner running in reverse. Similar tech to the "heat pipe" system used in modern cooling where you can conduct heat better than solid copper or silver by using phase change internally. Or also look at air conditioner efficiency.

See also:

coefficient of performance






So in my case, if my computer is generating ANY bitcoin, it is effectively providing cheaper heat than turning on the crappy heater in the wall.

I just love discussions like this one Wink
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
firstbits.com/1kznfw
October 01, 2012, 02:01:35 PM
#12

Another option for economics and efficiency is geothermal. Because it's a heat pump, it will put out more heat than it uses in energy (about 5-7x). Natural gas has come down a lot in price, though, and geothermal units are expensive to install, so you'd need to weigh it out.

can u provide link, i forget what that means, using earth heat?

Here's a basics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ajqiPe_9Ko

They have a loop that pumps ground water up to near the surface. This water is normally about 60-70 degrees F (15-20 C) even during the winter. Then there is a "heat pump" that extracts heat from the water and warms the air. This is the exact opposite action as an air conditioner, and because most heat pumps are reversible, it can be used to provide cold air in the summer (it's more efficient to pump heat into 70 degree water vs 90 degree air). Because the heat really comes from the ground water and not the energy source, it produces more heat than you spend.

420 makes a good point on ducting, but that would apply to a furnace as well.
legendary
Activity: 4354
Merit: 3614
what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?
October 01, 2012, 05:47:51 AM
#11

Another option for economics and efficiency is geothermal. Because it's a heat pump, it will put out more heat than it uses in energy (about 5-7x). Natural gas has come down a lot in price, though, and geothermal units are expensive to install, so you'd need to weigh it out.

I have geothermal, although technically its a ground sourced heat pump. its very efficient - 400% is the ballpark, but Id have to find the papers to be sure. but as superfastkyle pointed out if the ducts (distribution system) are not well done (like uninsulated pipes/ducts running outside the living space) you lose a  lot. I had new ducts run and they are insulated beyond belief.

last year I heated with oil (expensive in the US, getting near to heating with pure electric) and a 25 years old furnace and uninsulated pipes. efficiency wise, my waste heat from mining was pretty close to what my old furnace put out. this years its about 25% efficient compared to my geothermal unit. I heat with dirt now.
420
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
October 01, 2012, 02:13:50 AM
#10

Another option for economics and efficiency is geothermal. Because it's a heat pump, it will put out more heat than it uses in energy (about 5-7x). Natural gas has come down a lot in price, though, and geothermal units are expensive to install, so you'd need to weigh it out.

can u provide link, i forget what that means, using earth heat?
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
firstbits.com/1kznfw
October 01, 2012, 01:30:57 AM
#9

Another option for economics and efficiency is geothermal. Because it's a heat pump, it will put out more heat than it uses in energy (about 5-7x). Natural gas has come down a lot in price, though, and geothermal units are expensive to install, so you'd need to weigh it out.
sr. member
Activity: 437
Merit: 250
October 01, 2012, 01:04:37 AM
#8
death and taxes numbers are similar to what I remember from my calculations last year. But if you have poor insulation in a central heating system, they do drastically reduce efficiency. I spent about $220 last February in gas and about $70 in electricity in 2011, 2012 with about $150 worth of mining. I spent $310 this year in electric and about $50 in gas. That was with two extra roommates, to give you some idea. 1300ft house. So I think its safe to assume at least half the mining electricity cost will be free as long as you get the heat circulated
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