Topic: High fees are not bitcoin's destinty (Read 420 times)

Today I wanted to get a transaction out but the fees were crazy nuts. Everytime I looked it was like 250sat/btye. Upon research I found out some new ordinal token is coming out and it’s causing massive fees on the bitcoin blockchain.

Basically not an urgent transactions so will wait it out. But lately it’s getting to the point where ETH has cheaper transactions than BTC which is the complete opposite of the 2021 bull market.

Bitcoin is a crypto that's fee was mere cents when it was created and now it has thousands of percentage in growth and that's why it's very difficult to imagine sending Bitcoin with such high level of fee.
So their owner is anonymous so maybe no changes he ever made.

Maybe some miners are that greedy to only prioritize the transaction with a higher fee but I believe there are still left who can take anything because at the end of the day, it was still money and it'll still stack quickly if they will just move and move, and never get idle because they are waiting for something huge.

There are now ordinals but even so, I think the innovation won't stop there. You know the experts, they are always thinking of something new to be introduced to the public. But even without them, transaction fees can still increase some times. We already witnessed it before.

Some of the new functions might be unnecessary to us, but we can't do much about it, than to simply ignore it. Mass adoption is already here and will continue. It won't be stopped only because of the fee issues. BTC isn't perfect but that's okay. There are still alts and tokens. However even them also have some flaws. That is because nothing is perfect in this world. Yes BTC isn't a panacea or a solution for all problems, many of us already knows this but some should accept it, if they haven't yet.

Welp, I was dared to create a thread specifically discussing a potential max block size increase... So here we go:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.63169376

Feel free to drop by, vote, and give your two cents on the matter. In 2023 we shouldn't consider this matter as taboo. Right?!
Let's see what the sentiment is now that years have passed since the so called "block size wars".

I doubt that miners have any mechanism to artificially raise fees to keep being profitable, after all if they could, what would stop them from doing it right now even while there are coinbase rewards?

I think Satoshi originally hoped that blocks will be larger, so a bigger number of transactions with smaller fees would net the same reward as fewer transactions but with larger fees. As for how would Bitcoin be viable - either LN will be succesfull and the onchain fees will be like service fee for using LN, or Bitcoin will just be a store of value and people will only do large transactions where fees are not as noticeable.

I don't think that the ordinals are the only ones to blame for the high bitcoin transaction bloat. Keep in mind that this has been a problem in this network even before Ordinals came into the scene and to top it all off, miners and validators have all the rights to opt out of processing transactions that are related to ordinals and inscribing. And not even its "second-layer solutions" proved potent enough to solve this particular problem in bitcoin's case. Thing is, if we want bitcoin to be more scalable and less hefty when charging fees, we need a complete system overhaul that would literally fix the network from the ground up. But that would mean serious business and we might just lose 10+ years of building all because we wanted to pay less for transaction fees. Is it really that worth it?

You're probably right, it's not in our destiny to pay for stupid high fees in the bitcoin network, but unless you could provide a fool-proof solution that wouldn't bring more ifs than the problems we already have to begin with, we'll gladly stick to this current system.

Bitcoin is not a cellar to store wine no matter how good the quality of wine is, Bitcoin originally was invented to become a decentralized banking system, removing the man in the middle, but now we have men, women, children in the middle because everyone can do whatever they want.

Don't tell me if fees are $100 per TX, you wouldn't consider looking for cheaper alternatives. The actual concern here is : if a user starts thinking about alternatives, Bitcoin would definitely start to decline, it won't happen over night, but you would see it happening. Just imagine how long it took for these new garbage ordinal etc, to attract people, all it takes now is a similar situation where something new or even old is reintroduced to the world, then the actual originally intended userbase would migrate to the new system.

We already have the best examples in nature, e.g, by looking at how ants behave, once a new queen is born, their entire community splits, most will take the new queen somewhere else to start a new community.
Now we can sense that there is a possibility for a new queen emerging, but why should we risk it to find out when it's already too late? Even if %30 of community pledges loyalty to a new queen, we should kiss goodbye to %30 potential growth of Bitcoin.

Many people are taking time to bring up discussion on the bitcoin transaction fee since it recent hype in transaction fee, this had already happened once few months ago before it second attempts to clog the entire bitcoin network, this is an irregular experience and the impact don't seems to contain a long lasting solution on the mempool for congestion not to take place, it's not much that we cannot have a solution in more other ways but things needed to be done accordingly.

no
currently its just fee/vb where by if a ordinals bloater puts 3000000bytes extra into a tx, he pays 3000000bytes worth of sats extra, but at the 'freemarket' feerate everyone complies with

but he also causes the fee rate to go up by taking up the space. thus causing everyone to pay more

however there are ways to actually make it so those using certain opcodes pay MULTIPLES, so that bloaters fee rate for him changes
that way normal bitcoin opcode users pay EG 2sat/vb but those using opcodes ordinals use pay 200sat/vb
thus penalising them independently

rather than the current system that causes everyone to pay more sat/vb due to ordinals


the way bitcoin is heading is the bad economics of sticking to a ~4000tx average limit where people need to pay more to entertain miners costs.
however good economics is to increase transaction count. where the transaction count numbers entertains miners costs

you think this is the plan:
4000tx paying $2 = $8k needs to become 4000tx paying $16=$64k

however removing some of the cludgy byte miscounting and allowing full real block utility of the current 4mb space can get 16000 tx
and then increasing blockspace just 2x can get to 32,000tx
where by 32,000tx can pay $2 for a total of $64k

no need to get users to pay $16+ when they can continue to pay <$2

I appreciates your post about different opinion on what will happen with bitcoin in future. Some people think that high fees are not avoidable for bitcoin and some others people disagree.Right now at this time bitcoin still has block rewards that are not near to zero so it is not correct to say that high fee is already the destiny of bitcoin.

You made a good point about the current increase in bitcoin fee influenc by NFTs and tokens that have nothing to do with bitcoin.This mean that bitcoin may not to deal with high fee in future.

When it come to concern about increasing transaction space in block it is important to understand the economics involving.  Low fee can lead to more people want to make transactions which can balance things out and maybe even result in high total transaction fee in the end.

By the way there are many factors to considers when talking about bitcoin future and the issue of high fee. It is important to think about the current block reward the no value transactions and possible solution deal with blockchain bloat. With looking all these factors we can get  better idea of what will happen with bitcoin in future.

Maximum refers to an ideal scenario, with every single tx being as small as possible, if every single of tx in the mempool would be 1 input 1 output we would clear the entire mempool in a day or two.

TPS is a metric that derives from the block size, as I said not the other way around, as simple as it can be is:
TPS = (block size/ transaction size) / block time.

Increase the block size 10 times you increase the TPS 10 times, decrease the block time 10 times you increase the TPS 10 times, increase the transaction size by 100 as ordinals do you decrease the TPS by 100.
The old notion of 7 TPS just means 1 MB block ~226b tx, 600 seconds.

It is a speculative game for investor, trader, miner and user. It is a beauty of Bitcoin that makes it attractive and unpredictable. A market is volatile and it needs unpredictable things to continue volatile in future.

Hash rate shocks, difficulty shocks, mempool congestion, spike in transaction fees and certainly we will have many news around it. It gives a space for news to play its role in this market and if a user has patience, he can enjoy better fee rates than users who don't have patience, knowledge and plan for transactions.

But most of Bitcoin's block which have been mined are around 1MB-2MB, if TPS isn't the reason, then why the miner didn't fill up the block?

I read theoretically the maximum of Bitcoin's TPS is 27 because the block size is increased to 4MB, that's why I thought like that.

Are you then confirming that the fate of Bitcoin is high fees? My answer is yes, not immediately but it will eventually get their. Mining is a business and all businesses thrive on profits. When block reward hits zero, miners must find a way to remain in profits as without them there will be chaos.

I don't know if this was set out ab initio by Satoshi himself, and if that be the case, it makes the whole thing complex. How do we push for mainstream adoption of Bitcoin when the fees sending a Bitcoin transaction is triple that of conventional payment system? How do one opt for Bitcoin transaction when it takes days to settle payments if the high fees are not paid?

There are many things that are not so clear about the future of Bitcoin

Bitcoin's TPS  is 7 because of the blocksize, not the other way around!


No, the reason for the problem is ignorants who accuse others of everything without realizing they are just leechers who want everything for free, too lazy to actually understand how things work, and just shout incompressible garbage when they stop getting everything they have taken for granted.


And what are you here for?
Show me proof you're not for money, ask Theymos to disable your signature!

How about something else, all you people who accuse miners of being greedy and so on, you start your own decentralized pool you pay everything out of your pocket just for the sake of decentralization, and you bankrupt all the evil miners
But that would mean you would have to pay for a service you take now for granted, wow!

Paying for block space will always need to be a thing for Bitcoin to survive long term. The cost of that space will likely depend on the value provided. During times of calamity, I could see Bitcoin becoming very expensive to use. Maybe $100 for a transaction. Other times when block space may not be as valuable, it will cost less. This supply and demand bidding will be more and more important as block rewards are reduced.

You are right, the reason for the current problem is miners. They are the ones who are dusting the blockchain to increase the fee because they are the ones who will get most of the benefit out of it, and they should stop this on their own. People (miners) are only after money; they don't care about the BTC empire, and the purpose of it is to kill the hen laying golden eggs while they can get the golden eggs without killing it. They should not become greedy; otherwise, a mechanism will be placed by the developers, and that is for sure to hurt the miners. Just like the listing of ORDI on Binance has also made them money as they are also miners of BTC, they will earn profit from the listing of ORDI on Binance too. They are trying to fill their bags with both hands, which is so immoral.

BTC is really not a financial panacea for all scalability problems, but it can become one if the developers give it more time.

We are definitely not too far from the the 0.4 Btc per block reward, in fact the 7th bitcoin halving which is bound to happen in 2036 will get us there, that’s approximately 12-13 years from now, same time span from the first halving to the fourth in 2024. And we have seen in this approximately 15 years of bitcoin existence how the the volatility of the price has drastically reduce, for the past six months the price as just be in the region of $25k to $37k. If you ask anybody wether the next halving will do a 3x from the all time high many will say no because it clear that the volatility rate is reducing so yeah I agree that the price increase wouldn’t be as the early days as we go on

This makes the miners winner overall, they are the only one enjoying the high transaction fee on Bitcoin network now, at least when there is no more Bitcoin to mine miners won't have to quit their mining farm, they will make money from transactions on the network but for daily usage of Bitcoin it's going to be a problem, I hope a solution will come after or else people will look for alternatives.

I believe that Bitcoin is a gold more than a payment solution, I won't be using Bitcoin for any payment from now on, I am used to accepting Bitcoin payment from few numbers of customers but now it's near impossible because they aren't ready to pay that much to send me my money, I might look for other option or just halt Bitcoin payment from now on.

Ordinals is why the transaction fee is this high and I watched a video online about why people believe that Ordinals on the Bitcoin network will make miners stay in the mining business but what about people accepting Bitcoin as payment?  Using $4 to send Bitcoin is a lot, this $4 in my local currency is enough to buy and sew a cloth.

The Bitcoin miners don't mind the Ordinals, because they make bigger profits from higher transaction fees.
If there wasn't any Ordinals, another feature might be introduced and it will congest the BTC blockchain with transactions that will be viewed as unnecessary by most Bitcoiners. We have to face the truth, that the Bitcoin Core blockchain simply cannot handle massive amounts of transactions without getting congested. This is one of the problems that will always stop the mass adoption of Bitcoin. Making the block size bigger doesn't solve the problem and BCH is a living proof. Bitcoin isn't perfect. Bitcoin isn't a financial panacea for all problems.