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Topic: Historical question: - page 2. (Read 2786 times)

kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
January 04, 2013, 02:37:03 AM
#11
Like other indicated it was a guestimate and the number of coins (and discrete units) is totally arbitrary.  Personally the only thing I wish was different is 1 use full 64bit (21M BTC * 1E8 =2.1E15, 64bit ulong = 1.84E19) for units and 2 make the subsidies base 2 so there would be a "clean" generation (i.e. 64 BTC, 32 BTC 16 BTC, 8 BTC ...  2 satoshi, 1 satoshis 0). 

Meh.  The extra ~13 bits leaves headroom for accounting systems using modern CPUs, just in case it really takes off fast.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
January 03, 2013, 07:59:34 PM
#10
Quote from: satoshi
If it gets really big, the decimal can move two places and cents become the new coins.

This sounds right and even timely for me.

I do not like mBTC since it scales with 3 magnitudes.
People used to 2 magnitude moves from USD or EUR to cents and not to 1/10 cents.

Should we rather go for BTc for BT(c)ents, or cBTC?

MB for Megabyte and Mb for megabit has been confused the last 25 years.

They will just be called "cents", everybody know that you are talking about Bitcoin.

BTW a half Byte, 4 bits, is a nipple.

Half a byte is a nibble, not a nipple.
legendary
Activity: 1428
Merit: 1093
Core Armory Developer
January 03, 2013, 06:41:52 PM
#9
Like other indicated it was a guestimate and the number of coins (and discrete units) is totally arbitrary.  Personally the only thing I wish was different is 1 use full 64bit (21M BTC * 1E8 =2.1E15, 64bit ulong = 1.84E19) for units and 2 make the subsidies base 2 so there would be a "clean" generation (i.e. 64 BTC, 32 BTC 16 BTC, 8 BTC ...  2 satoshi, 1 satoshis 0).  

I kind of wish Satoshi had just named these units himself.  "I decree that we will use these names for the different units."  Even if they weren't good names, they probably would've stuck, just like everything else in this system.  At least there would be a baseline to refer to if there was some decision to deviate.  Then we wouldn't need any more discussion about what to name them (since no one can agree since it's so awkward having 8 decimal places).

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
January 03, 2013, 04:42:59 PM
#8
Like other indicated it was a guestimate and the number of coins (and discrete units) is totally arbitrary.  Personally the only thing I wish was different is 1 use full 64bit (21M BTC * 1E8 =2.1E15, 64bit ulong = 1.84E19) for units and 2 make the subsidies base 2 so there would be a "clean" generation (i.e. 64 BTC, 32 BTC 16 BTC, 8 BTC ...  2 satoshi, 1 satoshis 0). 
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
January 03, 2013, 04:35:30 PM
#7
Quote from: satoshi
If it gets really big, the decimal can move two places and cents become the new coins.

This sounds right and even timely for me.

I do not like mBTC since it scales with 3 magnitudes.
People used to 2 magnitude moves from USD or EUR to cents and not to 1/10 cents.

Should we rather go for BTc for BT(c)ents, or cBTC?

MB for Megabyte and Mb for megabit has been confused the last 25 years.

They will just be called "cents", everybody know that you are talking about Bitcoin.

BTW a half Byte, 4 bits, is a nipple.
hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1030
bits of proof
January 03, 2013, 04:14:09 PM
#6
Quote from: satoshi
If it gets really big, the decimal can move two places and cents become the new coins.

This sounds right and even timely for me.

I do not like mBTC since it scales with 3 magnitudes.
People used to 2 magnitude moves from USD or EUR to cents and not to 1/10 cents.

Should we rather go for BTc for BT(c)ents, or cBTC?
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
January 03, 2013, 12:07:50 PM
#5
Personally I found the starting point a 50 BTC block reward (as opposed to say 64) to be more "strange" - am guessing the only reason for this particular number was to try and "appeal" to non-nerds (not that there probably are any that would be mining BTC).

Well, they outnumber us by about an order of magnitude so preferring 50 and 25 versus 64 and 32 is obvious.

Like all aspects of Bitcoins initial design, it was decided by Satoshi.

Quote from: satoshi
I wanted something that would be not too low if it was very popular and not too high if it wasn't.

There are some people who think that Facebook ($FB) is a better stock than Alcoa ($AA) because a share of Facebook trades at $25 versus $9 for Alcoa.  These same people don't generally trade themselves so a basic understanding of stock prices isn't necessary for them. 

I personally didn't appreciate this until Bitcoin hit parity and suddenly instead of Bitcoin being these fake bits it was now "worth more than a dollar, so it must be somehow legit".   

The benefit of this decision helped bitcoin (in the court of public opinion) when it was critically needed.    What many sites are doing is displaying the amount of bitcoins in one field and right next to it is that amount's value in dollars.    This will ease the concern when we start seeing things priced in mBTCs -- where at one site you are paying 130 millibits for an item and at the next one the price is listed as 0.137 BTC.

legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
January 03, 2013, 09:43:57 AM
#4
From the analysis that Meni Rosenfield recently published it seems that the 10 minute per block time frame could well have been reduced but as stated this was an arbitrary decision that was made to be "extra sure" that no (at the time) unforeseen attack would be successful if it were much lower.

I think that this single decision may likely lead to another crypto-currency (i.e. a bitcoin clone) also becoming popular (such as perhaps LTC) but also this possibly "unnecessary" extra level of security will most likely keep Bitcoin's status as being the "gold standard" in the crypto-currency families.

Personally I found the starting point a 50 BTC block reward (as opposed to say 64) to be more "strange" - am guessing the only reason for this particular number was to try and "appeal" to non-nerds (not that there probably are any that would be mining BTC).
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
January 03, 2013, 09:23:48 AM
#3
Thank you for this detailed answer. So it was a guess! So if he felt that the halving formula chosen was just right, he would have had some idea on how the price should evolve and how big the final market cap would be. Was any of this ever discussed?
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1134
January 03, 2013, 09:05:16 AM
#2
Like all aspects of Bitcoins initial design, it was decided by Satoshi.

Quote from: satoshi
I wanted something that would be not too low if it was very popular and not too high if it wasn't.

It works out to an even 10 minutes per block:
21000000 / (50 BTC * 24hrs * 365days * 4years * 2) = 5.99 blocks/hour

I fudged it to 364.58333 days/year.  The halving of 50 BTC to 25 BTC is after 210000 blocks or around 3.9954 years, which is approximate anyway based on the retargeting mechanism's best effort.

I thought about 100 BTC and 42 million, but 42 million seemed high.

I wanted typical amounts to be in a familiar range.  If you're tossing around 100000 units, it doesn't feel scarce.  The brain is better able to work with numbers from 0.01 to 1000.

If it gets really big, the decimal can move two places and cents become the new coins.

Of course this will lead you to ask, why 10 minutes per block?

Quote from: satoshi
Quote from: Mike Hearn
Another is the 10 minute block target. I understand this was chosen to allow transactions to propagate through the network. However existing large P2P networks like BGP can propagate new data worldwide in <1 minute.

If propagation is 1 minute, then 10 minutes was a good guess.  Then nodes are only losing 10% of their work (1 minute/10 minutes).  If the CPU time wasted by latency was a more significant share, there may be weaknesses I haven't thought of.  An attacker would not be affected by latency, since he's chaining his own blocks, so he would have an advantage.  The chain would temporarily fork more often due to latency.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
January 03, 2013, 06:40:02 AM
#1
how was the block reward system decided?

Was 50BTC and 4 years just arbitrary or was there some financial formula behind it.

Did Satoshi himself decide it or was it debated?

In hindsight would it have been better if the generation of Bitcoin had been slower or faster?

I know that the most important property of the block reward system is that it is set in stone, so this is not a "why don't we change it" question.
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