Historical question: were any Bitcoins premined? If so, how many?

deepceleron

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Quote from: ShameOnYou on December 09, 2013, 03:54:37 AM

yeah the early alts were premined generally, 2011 coins

much of the early mining.... well know whos really who did it? i suspect btc was certainly premined to a huge extent

When you post to old threads once a minute with your bitcoin-begging sockpuppet, I guess you can't be expected to post more than stupid shit.

ShameOnYou

full member

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yeah the early alts were premined generally, 2011 coins

much of the early mining.... well know whos really who did it? i suspect btc was certainly premined to a huge extent

rapidfire187

sr. member

Activity: 252

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!!!INCAKOIN!!!

Quote from: Stephen Gornick on March 29, 2013, 03:54:52 AM

Quote from: forbun on March 29, 2013, 02:34:05 AM

Did Satoshi release/open source Bitcoin publicly on the same day that mining began?

How interested might you have been in the following drawing?

At the time it was drawn, not many people were interested. It did eventually make it into a publication though.

That was drawn by Charles Schulz, creator of Snoopy, when he was a child.

See back when Satoshi created Bitcoin, almost nobody gave a rat's ass about it. It was a lot of work, from what I read, to try the program out. The code wasn't easily compiled and built, there was nearly no documentation, etc.

But the project had been discussed in the cryptography mailing list months prior to the genesis block being created on January 3rd, 2009, and the first public release occurred less than a week after the genesis block was mined:
- http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg10142.html

Eventually, others did join in.

The June 2010 Slashdot article is when difficulty rose above to where there were more miners (maybe a few dozen prior to then mining regularly?). Difficulty was 1 until February 2010 at block 38,304 -- when 1.9 million BTC had already been mined.
- https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0AmcTCtjBoRWUdHVRMHpqWUJValI1RlZiaEtCT1RrQmc

Litecoin and Feathercoin also pre-mined. litecoin.tumbler.com admitted to this now gone and Feathercoin openly admits to this.

zebedee

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Quote from: bezzeb on March 31, 2013, 06:16:28 AM

Quote from: zebedee on March 31, 2013, 12:51:20 AM

Well, I just understand how bitcoin works, and have read around / looked at the source code

The code that checks the inputs of a txn looks them up in a hash table by the txn hash, and if it's not there the txn is rejected as invalid. The genesis coinbase (the first txn in the system and hardcoded - you can perhaps see why it was missed) isn't in that hash table, which was an oversight in the original code and preserved in subsequent changes. Later payments to the address are nothing special and just txns like any other, that are entered in the hash table, and hence spendable.

Ding - lightbulb moment. Now it makes much more sense. At least I think it does.. (heh)

So if I got it right, there might be a few different ways to make genesis spendable... But since inserting a valid hash would mean a) finding a valid hash - probably computationally impractical - and then b) recomputing the entire blockchain since the instant it was created (lol!) whatever way might be used would essentially require a "we love you satoshi" exception rule in the hash checking where the code skips the prior transaction hash check if a valid spend request appears which demonstrates that the genesis block's reward owner has the right private key.

Gads. Well IMHO we should just leave it there. Let him/her/them have the tips that grow on the side. Grin

Thanks much!

Making it spendable is easy - just add the txn hash to the lookup table. The problem is any new client doing that, and then permitting the coinbase to be spent, would be incompatible with older clients that don't permit it to be spent, leading to a chain fork.

bezzeb

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Activity: 103

Merit: 10

Quote from: zebedee on March 31, 2013, 12:51:20 AM

Well, I just understand how bitcoin works, and have read around / looked at the source code

The code that checks the inputs of a txn looks them up in a hash table by the txn hash, and if it's not there the txn is rejected as invalid. The genesis coinbase (the first txn in the system and hardcoded - you can perhaps see why it was missed) isn't in that hash table, which was an oversight in the original code and preserved in subsequent changes. Later payments to the address are nothing special and just txns like any other, that are entered in the hash table, and hence spendable.

Ding - lightbulb moment. Now it makes much more sense. At least I think it does.. (heh)

So if I got it right, there might be a few different ways to make genesis spendable... But since inserting a valid hash would mean a) finding a valid hash - probably computationally impractical - and then b) recomputing the entire blockchain since the instant it was created (lol!) whatever way might be used would essentially require a "we love you satoshi" exception rule in the hash checking where the code skips the prior transaction hash check if a valid spend request appears which demonstrates that the genesis block's reward owner has the right private key.

Gads. Well IMHO we should just leave it there. Let him/her/them have the tips that grow on the side. Grin

Thanks much!

zebedee

donator

Activity: 668

Merit: 500

Quote from: bezzeb on March 30, 2013, 04:39:35 PM

Thanks for the info, but could you please explain how you learned this? I'd like to understand more deeply as my imagination totally envisions the idea of Satoshi turning into a religious cult 100 years from now if Bitcoin is still around. Like tossing coins in a fountain - flip Satoshi a few satoshis. I've read Satoshi's paper of course but the implementation in code is probably in a git repo somewhere and I don't frankly have time to read wallet source code. Then I probably wouldn't pick up on the mechanism that causes what you describe if I did read said code.

Tangentially... That private key must be siting somewhere... Would make headlines if any coin is ever spent from that address - like the Loch Ness Monster being alive. Or perhaps 500 years from now it would become one of the biggest enigmas and they'd make documentaries about the mysterious Origin Block (capitalized of course).

One can dream right?

And nice nickname - now i know why it was in use when i tried to sign up with it! Grin

Well, I just understand how bitcoin works, and have read around / looked at the source code

The code that checks the inputs of a txn looks them up in a hash table by the txn hash, and if it's not there the txn is rejected as invalid. The genesis coinbase (the first txn in the system and hardcoded - you can perhaps see why it was missed) isn't in that hash table, which was an oversight in the original code and preserved in subsequent changes. Later payments to the address are nothing special and just txns like any other, that are entered in the hash table, and hence spendable.

bezzeb

member

Activity: 103

Merit: 10

Quote from: zebedee on March 30, 2013, 05:57:07 AM

Only the coinbase transaction (block reward) is (currently) unspendable, anyone sending coins to the address creates a spendable transaction like any other. Assuming Satoshi has the private key.

Thanks for the info, but could you please explain how you learned this? I'd like to understand more deeply as my imagination totally envisions the idea of Satoshi turning into a religious cult 100 years from now if Bitcoin is still around. Like tossing coins in a fountain - flip Satoshi a few satoshis. I've read Satoshi's paper of course but the implementation in code is probably in a git repo somewhere and I don't frankly have time to read wallet source code. Then I probably wouldn't pick up on the mechanism that causes what you describe if I did read said code.

Tangentially... That private key must be siting somewhere... Would make headlines if any coin is ever spent from that address - like the Loch Ness Monster being alive. Or perhaps 500 years from now it would become one of the biggest enigmas and they'd make documentaries about the mysterious Origin Block (capitalized of course).

One can dream right?

And nice nickname - now i know why it was in use when i tried to sign up with it! Grin

zebedee

donator

Activity: 668

Merit: 500

Quote from: bezzeb on March 29, 2013, 08:33:38 AM

Correct-a-mundo.

A write up on the genesis block is of course here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Genesis_block

Boy I think the Genesis block is probably the most visited page over at blockchain.info. When i first learned about it my imagination ran wild. And i think it's awesome that people are donating BTC to the idea of Satoshi - though they will likely end up as "lost" bitcoins in the end. I think Satoshi (whoever he/they are) intentionally made it so this first block was un-spendable, though i tried to figure out the "quirk" they speak of and my brain exploded.

I wonder if the funds that people have given Satoshi's address since then *might* be spendable or if the first block sort of poisons the whole address which depends on it? So everyone keep an eye open - if anything from Satoshi's address ever gets spent one day then it means the creator is alive!!! (muahahahaha)

Only the coinbase transaction (block reward) is (currently) unspendable, anyone sending coins to the address creates a spendable transaction like any other. Assuming Satoshi has the private key.

Stephen Gornick

legendary

Activity: 2506

Merit: 1010

Quote from: forbun on March 30, 2013, 04:47:37 AM

Where are those notes from? Are they in the blockchain?

No, the third-party blockchain reporting service, Blockchain.info, stores those "public notes" and displays them:

- http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/q/4707/153

Quote from: forbun on March 30, 2013, 04:47:37 AM

How do I make one?

Quote

What are public notes?
Public notes are embeddable short messages during the transaction. An example of a public note can be seen below:

- http://blockchain.info/wallet/website-faq

[Edit: Also:
- http://bitcoinmagazine.com/bitmessage-a-model-for-a-new-web-2-0 ]

forbun

member

Activity: 107

Merit: 10

blockchain.info shows some Public Notes for transactions sent to the genesis block's newly-generated coins' address, e.g.

Quote

Public Note: A Satoshi for Satoshi, may it be worth hundreds one day.

Where are those notes from? Are they in the blockchain? How do I make one?

BigJohn

member

Activity: 116

Merit: 10

So then the question is how many Bitcoins are still sitting there from those days?

Even beyond the genesis block. How many were mined by very early adopters and are still just sitting there? If it's in the millions, it could have serious consequences of those are ever released into the Bitcoin economy.

bezzeb

member

Activity: 103

Merit: 10

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on March 29, 2013, 08:55:19 AM

The genesis block wasn't ever "intentionally" unspendable. It was an oversight however if future versions of the client "fixed" that oversight and earlier versions didn't then it would hard fork the network.

Technically it could be "fixed" in a hard fork "safe' manner but given the limited impact it likely never will.

Aaah, thanks for the info, points me in a good direction to learn more.
Cheers,

Maria2.0

newbie

Activity: 14

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Quote from: Stephen Gornick on March 29, 2013, 03:54:52 AM

Quote from: forbun on March 29, 2013, 02:34:05 AM

Did Satoshi release/open source Bitcoin publicly on the same day that mining began?

How interested are you in the following drawing?

https://i.imgur.com/nijlp9L.jpg

At the time it was drawn, not many people were. It did eventually make it into a publication.

That was drawn by Charles Schulz, creator of Snoopy, when he was a child.

See back when Satoshi created Bitcoin, almost nobody gave a rat's ass about it. It was a lot of work, from what I read, to try the program out. The code wasn't easily compiled and built, there was nearly no documentation, etc.

But the project had been discussed in the cryptography mailing list months prior to the genesis block being created on January 3rd, 2009, and the first public release occurred less than a week after the genesis block was mined:
- http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg10142.html

Eventually, others did join in.

The June 2010 Slashdot article is when difficulty rose above to where there were more miners (maybe a few dozen prior to then mining regularly?). Difficulty was 1 until February 2010 at block 38,304 -- when 1.9 million BTC had already been mined.
- https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0AmcTCtjBoRWUdHVRMHpqWUJValI1RlZiaEtCT1RrQmc

I gave a rats ass and some network power.

Maria 2.0

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

The genesis block wasn't ever "intentionally" unspendable. It was an oversight however if future versions of the client "fixed" that oversight and earlier versions didn't then it would hard fork the network.

Technically it could be "fixed" in a hard fork "safe' manner but given the limited impact it likely never will.

bezzeb

member

Activity: 103

Merit: 10

Quote from: CIYAM on March 29, 2013, 02:42:24 AM

AFAIA the coinbase from the Genesis block cannot be spent - so it really couldn't be considered "premined".

Correct-a-mundo.

A write up on the genesis block is of course here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Genesis_block

Boy I think the Genesis block is probably the most visited page over at blockchain.info. When i first learned about it my imagination ran wild. And i think it's awesome that people are donating BTC to the idea of Satoshi - though they will likely end up as "lost" bitcoins in the end. I think Satoshi (whoever he/they are) intentionally made it so this first block was un-spendable, though i tried to figure out the "quirk" they speak of and my brain exploded.

I wonder if the funds that people have given Satoshi's address since then *might* be spendable or if the first block sort of poisons the whole address which depends on it? So everyone keep an eye open - if anything from Satoshi's address ever gets spent one day then it means the creator is alive!!! (muahahahaha)

Stephen Gornick

legendary

Activity: 2506

Merit: 1010

Ha, Windows. That's probably why I remember reading that it was a little bit of a hassle early on ... for Linux and Mac users.

Quote from: deepceleron on March 29, 2013, 05:29:36 AM

Quote from: Stephen Gornick on March 29, 2013, 03:54:52 AM

The code wasn't easily compiled and built, there was nearly no documentation, etc.

[...]
All the libraries used are cross-platform, so there's nothing preventing future Linux and Mac builds.

deepceleron

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1036

Quote from: forbun on March 29, 2013, 02:34:05 AM

And where can I verify/see this? On the blockchain?

Did Satoshi release/open source Bitcoin publicly on the same day that mining began? Or was it some time later?

Where did he make the announcement/initial release?

As proof that the blockchain was not pre-mined, the manually created genesis block included a January 3 2009 headline from the Times UK:
"Chancellor Alistair Darling on brink of second bailout for banks".

The release announcement was on January 9 2009:

http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2009-January/014994.html:

Quote from: Stephen Gornick on March 29, 2013, 03:54:52 AM

The code wasn't easily compiled and built, there was nearly no documentation, etc.

http://we.lovebitco.in/bitcoin-0.1.0.rar. Windows binary and readme included:

Quote

BitCoin v0.01 ALPHA

Copyright (c) 2009 Satoshi Nakamoto
Distributed under the MIT/X11 software license, see the accompanying
file license.txt or http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php.
This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Project for use in
the OpenSSL Toolkit (http://www.openssl.org/). This product includes
cryptographic software written by Eric Young ([email protected]).

Intro
-----
Bitcoin is an electronic cash system that uses a peer-to-peer network to
prevent double-spending. It's completely decentralized with no server or
central authority.

Operating Systems
-----------------
Windows NT/2000/XP (and probably Vista)

Vista hasn't been tested yet. All the libraries used are cross-platform, so
there's nothing preventing future Linux and Mac builds.

Setup
-----
Unpack the files into a directory and run bitcoin.exe.

The software automatically finds other nodes to connect to. You should set
your firewall to forward port 8333 to your computer so you can receive incoming
connections, otherwise the nodes you can connect with will be limited.

To support the network by running a node, select:

Options->Generate Coins

and keep the program open or minimized. It runs at idle priority when no other
programs are using the CPU. Your computer will be solving a very difficult
computational problem that is used to lock in blocks of transactions. The time
to generate a block varies each time, but may take days or months, depending
on the speed of your computer and the competition on the network. It's not a
computation that has to start over from the beginning if you stop and restart
it. A solution might be found at any given moment it's running. As a reward
for supporting the network, you receive coins when you successfully generate a
block.

Stephen Gornick

legendary

Activity: 2506

Merit: 1010

Quote from: forbun on March 29, 2013, 02:34:05 AM

Did Satoshi release/open source Bitcoin publicly on the same day that mining began?

How interested might you have been in the following drawing?

At the time it was drawn, not many people were interested. It did eventually make it into a publication though.

That was drawn by Charles Schulz, creator of Snoopy, when he was a child.

See back when Satoshi created Bitcoin, almost nobody gave a rat's ass about it. It was a lot of work, from what I read, to try the program out. The code wasn't easily compiled and built, there was nearly no documentation, etc.

But the project had been discussed in the cryptography mailing list months prior to the genesis block being created on January 3rd, 2009, and the first public release occurred less than a week after the genesis block was mined:
- http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg10142.html

Eventually, others did join in.

The June 2010 Slashdot article is when difficulty rose above to where there were more miners (maybe a few dozen prior to then mining regularly?). Difficulty was 1 until February 2010 at block 38,304 -- when 1.9 million BTC had already been mined.
- https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0AmcTCtjBoRWUdHVRMHpqWUJValI1RlZiaEtCT1RrQmc

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

AFAIA the coinbase from the Genesis block cannot be spent - so it really couldn't be considered "premined".

Muhs

newbie

Activity: 15

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The genesis block: http://blockchain.info/block-index/1

The original 50 BTC are still sitting there unused, along with over 10 BTC random people have sent to "Satoshi" over the years. I wonder if he even has the private key to that address.

Topic: Historical question: were any Bitcoins premined? If so, how many? (Read 4986 times)