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Topic: History of United States Anti-Money Laundering Laws - page 2. (Read 6952 times)

legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Conspiracy implies something unlawful.

The regulations currently being imposed on bitcoin business and their banking partners is lawful.

So was gassing the Jews and Gypsies at one time and place. What's your point?

+ 100,000,000 native Americans
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
Conspiracy implies something unlawful.

To you it may, but I've never considered that to be a requirement.  Taken from Google's 'define: conspiracy':

   noun
  1. a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.

The operative elements are 'secret' and 'group'.  'harmful' is sufficient to characterize the 'plan'.

The regulations currently being imposed on bitcoin business and their banking partners is lawful.

That is probably unknown until it is adjudicated.  It seems arguable to me that if a 'conspiracy' were to have occurred with a goal of harming a vendor or system which was itself perfectly legal, then the conspiracy might be considered unlawful.  It is (currently) possible for parties up to and including government bodies to break the law in the US.  In other political systems the latter may be impossible by definition.

legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
Conspiracy implies something unlawful.

The regulations currently being imposed on bitcoin business and their banking partners is lawful.

So was gassing the Jews and Gypsies at one time and place. What's your point?
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
Conspiracy implies something unlawful.

The regulations currently being imposed on bitcoin business and their banking partners is lawful.

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
The unseen hand of the US government has plenty of tactics against an advisary as is evidenced in the recent announcement by DWOLLA to suspend services to bitcoin businesses and the continued closure of bitcoin business bank accounts.

The banks and dwolla are not closing these accounts because they don't want the businesses.

They are closing these accounts because of increased pressure and scrutiny by their regulators as well at the "reputational risk" of banking a bitcoin business.

see:

Treasury's War: The Unleashing of a New Era of Financial Warfare by Juan Zarate
http://www.amazon.com/Treasurys-War-Unleashing-Financial-Warfare/dp/1610391152

For more than a decade, America has been waging a new kind of war against the financial networks of rogue regimes, proliferators, terrorist groups, and criminal syndicates. Juan Zarate, a chief architect of modern financial warfare and a former senior Treasury and White House official, pulls back the curtain on this shadowy world. In this gripping story, he explains in unprecedented detail how a small, dedicated group of officials redefined the Treasury’s role and used its unique powers, relationships, and reputation to apply financial pressure against America’s enemies.
 

Ah, but now we are talking about a 'conspiracy'.  The most critical segment of society (the 'outer party' to use Orwell's shorthand) has been conditioned to reject anything like that at the hypothesis phase.  This effectively short circuits any analysis of a 'conspiracy' before it progresses to a theory or fact phases.

It is undeniable that there is such a thing as a 'conspiracy', but it is only possible when it has been established as a fact through historical analysis.  It is exceedingly uncomfortable for most people to entertain the notion of a 'conspiracy' occurring in the present or near past because believing considering such a thing casts one into a zone of being of either unsound mind or in a despised class of people or both.

 edit: fix
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
The unseen hand of the US government has plenty of tactics against an advisary as is evidenced in the recent announcement by DWOLLA to suspend services to bitcoin businesses and the continued closure of bitcoin business bank accounts.

The banks and dwolla are not closing these accounts because they don't want the businesses.

They are closing these accounts because of increased pressure and scrutiny by their regulators as well at the "reputational risk" of banking a bitcoin business.

see:

Treasury's War: The Unleashing of a New Era of Financial Warfare by Juan Zarate
http://www.amazon.com/Treasurys-War-Unleashing-Financial-Warfare/dp/1610391152

For more than a decade, America has been waging a new kind of war against the financial networks of rogue regimes, proliferators, terrorist groups, and criminal syndicates. Juan Zarate, a chief architect of modern financial warfare and a former senior Treasury and White House official, pulls back the curtain on this shadowy world. In this gripping story, he explains in unprecedented detail how a small, dedicated group of officials redefined the Treasury’s role and used its unique powers, relationships, and reputation to apply financial pressure against America’s enemies.
 
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
I think you misinterpreted what I said.  Forget for a second the fact that one judge can say one thing and later another can say something else.  What I said was that lots of bitcoin transactions are illegal per se not bitcoin itself is illegal.  If bitcoin is a currency then either it is a cash currency or because of the public blockchain it isn't.  If one feels it's cash then various institution must file reports if transactions exceed a certain size and the participants aren't identified.  Somehow I doubt any such reports are filed or for that matter who's supposed to file them?  Miners?  Pools?  So all the big transactions you see on the blockchain are either money laundering per se or what are they since participants are obscured and that by definition is money laundering.  If it isn't a cash currency then no regulation is needed at all since it's just like writing a check and both partis are known by their bitcoin address.  Bitcoin is kinda like the Native Americans view about land and property vs modern money which was the European view about land and property when they came to America.  These two systems can not coexist peacefully.

True.  There have been few legal precedents set for bitcoin.

"Therefore, Bitcoin is a currency or form of money, and investors wishing to invest in BTCST provided an  investment of money."
Judge in the Eastern District of Texas, Sherman Division in SEC V TRENDON T. SHAVERS and BITCOIN SAVINGS AND TRUST
http://ia600904.us.archive.org/35/items/gov.uscourts.txed.146063/gov.uscourts.txed.146063.23.0.pdf

I hope that further ruling in the Shavers Case in Texas and the pending Silk Road cases in New York and Delaware will give further clairity to bitcoin's legal standing.

Interesting analogy about the Native Americans.  We all know their fate in the US.  It was not until they partnered with corporate america to use the sovereign powers of their domestic dependent nation  status to enter the casino industry that they began to gain any parity.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1094
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
Moves this up to the top of the page due to recent news etc.
sr. member
Activity: 341
Merit: 250
BCB gets a post award for quality.  Thank you sir.   Smiley

Yes, quality fore-lock tugging, bowing, scraping and general sycophancy.

I think Lao Tsu would approve of BCB's post.


The Tao of Trolling
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
I think you misinterpreted what I said.  Forget for a second the fact that one judge can say one thing and later another can say something else.  What I said was that lots of bitcoin transactions are illegal per se not bitcoin itself is illegal.  If bitcoin is a currency then either it is a cash currency or because of the public blockchain it isn't.  If one feels it's cash then various institution must file reports if transactions exceed a certain size and the participants aren't identified.  Somehow I doubt any such reports are filed or for that matter who's supposed to file them?  Miners?  Pools?  So all the big transactions you see on the blockchain are either money laundering per se or what are they since participants are obscured and that by definition is money laundering.  If it isn't a cash currency then no regulation is needed at all since it's just like writing a check and both partis are known by their bitcoin address.  Bitcoin is kinda like the Native Americans view about land and property vs modern money which was the European view about land and property when they came to America.  These two systems can not coexist peacefully.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
Page 13, Item 21 titled "Silk Road's Bitcoin Based Payment System" in section b. item V. of the sealed complaint of US vs Ross William Ulbricht states:
"Bitcoin are not illegal in and of themselves and have known legitimate uses."
http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/801130/172773407-ulbricht-criminal-complaint-silk-road.pdf


"... offering virtual currencies must comply with ... regulatory requirements, and if they do so, they have nothing to fear from Treasury. "
JENNIFER SHASKY CALVERY, DIRECTOR , FINANCIAL CRIMES ENFORCEMENT NETWORK
http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/speech/pdf/20130613.pdf
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
Sure, so the hope here is for adoption to outrun the time it takes for various agencies to crack down?  Aml and kyc laws are illegal per se without mens rea requirements much like drug possession.  Those laws already make lots of bitcoin transactions illegal.  If taken to its logical conclusion since regulating bitcoin is impossible the only other option is an outright ban.  No amount of explaining to regulators will change the fact that an anonymous address A can transfer the equivalent of millions of real fiat to anonymous address B and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1000
This might be coming
  • Money Laundering, Cryptocurrency and Financial Crimes Strategy Act (2016)
/thread revive
With government seizing bitcoins now and somewhat acknowledging their status as money regulation seems inevitable but I agree with you that bitcoin protocol is in direct conflict with many existing aml and other laws on the books so other then an outright ban what possible regulation can there be?

I hesitate to give them specifics.  The good news is that they are usually slow and ponderous. 


legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
This might be coming
  • Money Laundering, Cryptocurrency and Financial Crimes Strategy Act (2016)
That would be awesome.

Do you know how much we'll get done by 2016 in terms of inventing systems that will make that law impossible to enforce in practise?
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
This might be coming
  • Money Laundering, Cryptocurrency and Financial Crimes Strategy Act (2016)
/thread revive
With government seizing bitcoins now and somewhat acknowledging their status as money regulation seems inevitable but I agree with you that bitcoin protocol is in direct conflict with many existing aml and other laws on the books so other then an outright ban what possible regulation can there be?
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Let me put it in a more down home analogy for ya:

... the old house is crumbling down, people are walking through the massive holes smashed in the walls, climbing in through the broken windows ... and here you are screaming, "everybody, please remember to use the doors!".

I think go to Wall St. and pontificate about following the ridiculous financial regulations and laws, the targets are bigger, more 'morally just' and at least they will pretend to care.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
In fact if you really knew what cognitive dissonance was you'd realize your justification that laws you find immoral or unjust don't apply to you is in fact a classic example of cognitive dissonance.

You're entirely correct to point out that immoral or unjust legislation is in the eye of the beholder. You haven't the faintest clue how to identify cognitive dissonance correctly. Allow me to refute the above quote:

Some people think the ability to stifle the flow of money between criminals is a proportionate and appropriate way to tackle the actual crimes, others don't. The trouble with that is that the United States political/corporate establishment seeks to impose it's subjective view of right and wrong upon every square inch of the planet, and it has been granted no such authority, except by itself. This is the greater crime, as it renders everyone else unable to choose what version of right and wrong they wish to live under. It is nothing more than a dictatorship, to disacknowledge this is cognitive dissonance of a magnitude that would sound like an entire orchestra tipped over the edge of the Grand Canyon.  
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1081
I may write code in exchange for bitcoins.
Thanks for the reading material!
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ

Huh??  You should try to understand concepts like cognitive dissonance before you use them in an argument to make baseless uninformed attacks. You are attacking me personally not my argument that there are laws that  exist and regardless of how they are selectively enforced the are still to be obeyed.  You don't like that. Neither do I but the fact remains. Throwing around armchair psychology may make you feel better or more superior but it does not change the fact.

In fact if you really knew what cognitive dissonance was you'd realize your justification that laws you find immoral or unjust don't apply to you is in fact a classic example of cognitive dissonance.

Now to return to to the topic here:  the US and other countries have very clear anti-money laundering laws and regulation and the extent to which any legitimate bitcoin business in the US or serving US Customers understands how to navigate these regulations or work collectively to change or modify those laws as they relate to virtual currency is the extent to which they will be successful.
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