Hong Kong protestors call for sanctions against HSBC bank

NathanJB

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Quote from: Sithara007 on January 02, 2020, 11:18:13 PM

To be fair with the HSBC bank, I don't think that any bank in any other country could have done anything different.

Let's assume a scenario in which there is a large violent anti-governmental protest in the United States against the killing of Qasem Soleimani. The protesters manages to raise $70 million, without the permission from the authorities. Now the authorities order the bank to freeze these funds. Do you think that the banks will be in a position to reject the directive from the authorities?

If there is a legal order coming from the courts, then the directive will be followed by the banks. Otherwise, the government cannot just command any bank for that matter to freeze a particular account simply because it is used for non-violent protests, or owned by some opposition groups of members, etc.

Quote

I am getting suspicious about this entire episode. $70 million is a huge amount of money. I have never heard about so much money being raised in any protest around the world.

Hong Kong is a very rich financial district not just within the Chinese territory but the whole of Asia. There must be so many business tycoons inside and outside Hong Kong who are one with the objective of the protesters which is to maintain their state's freedom against the authoritarian hands of China.

Sithara007

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To be fair with the HSBC bank, I don't think that any bank in any other country could have done anything different.

Let's assume a scenario in which there is a large violent anti-governmental protest in the United States against the killing of Qasem Soleimani. The protesters manages to raise $70 million, without the permission from the authorities. Now the authorities order the bank to freeze these funds. Do you think that the banks will be in a position to reject the directive from the authorities?

I am getting suspicious about this entire episode. $70 million is a huge amount of money. I have never heard about so much money being raised in any protest around the world.

Searing

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Clueless!

I hate to say this..but it is my 'assumption' and I hope I am dead wrong, that once the ink is barely dry on this 1st phase of

getting rid of China Tariffs with the USA and vs versa. (They are mainly Agricultural from what I can see). I fear that China

with Trump now more or less being 'distracted' by (1) US Election (2) A likely cooling ecoinomy (3) North Korea (4) the other

2/3 continuing tariff issue with China (4) the likely further movement of Irag to Iran's influence. (4) Afganastan isssues. (5) The

Arms Control Treaty running out with Russia this year and last but not least, (6) the continuing many, many, court cases and

the Impeacment.

So, I 'assume' any 2-3 of the above will be enough of a 'distraction' for China to go in and 'squash' Hong Kong protestors and

claim it is an internal matter. Even though there are a couple decades or so of them 'supposedly' staying autonomous.

Sh*t is gonna come home to roost in the USA this year, you can only kick so much down the road without clear actions and policies

before other countries will see this as a way to take things to their own advantage with 'supposedly' few consequences.

So my prediction is sometime Q1 2020 in Hong Kong this will unfortunatly come to pass. Massive Crackdown with troops. Sad

squatz1

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Quote from: Hydrogen on December 26, 2019, 06:10:26 AM

Everyone saying banks have "no choice" in this matter. They must obey the state & government.

How do you explain the following.

#1 Banks regularly laundering money for drug cartels contrary to laws made by governments.
#2 Banks taking action, punishing entire nations like the UK for their pro brexit stance.
#3 Banks closing the accounts of US workers in the adult entertainment industry.

There are countless examples of banks implementing policies which go directly against the national interest.

I think what people are missing is banks having their own agenda and blueprint for the future which they collectively coordinate and cooperate with the media and others to enforce.

The bottom line here is china promised hong kong autonomy. That's the agreement china made. Now china seeks to bring hong kong under its own iron curtain and it would appear that banks support this. Rather than acknowledging the sovereignty of hong kong as a self governing place.

1. Laundering money isn't something that is legal or endorsed by the banks heads. This is going to be being done by certain employees of the bank without the knowledge of the executives. I highly doubt the executives would endorse this sort of thing, as they'd easily face the wrath of federal and state regulators -- losing their licenses with ease.

2. I haven't heard of this, could you provide some of the info so I'd be able to read into it?

3. Closing the accounts of US workers in adult entertainment. I assume this is done because the banks feel as if this is a high risk for chargeback / fraud industry so they don't want to do business with it. There's nothing wrong with that.

Let me know if I'm wrong on this one. I think I've explained this from a very realistic point of view.

exstasie

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Quote from: Hydrogen on December 25, 2019, 04:33:34 AM

International banking cartels would appear to universally oppose populist independence movements like brexit and hong kong. Banks appear to side with china and the left politically. I hope this information is useful in helping people to decipher a motive behind certain policies and angles being supported.

It's not about siding with China, or the political left. Banks are on the side of stability first and foremost. They are always going to follow orders from the state. The police ordered the account to be frozen; what would you expect?

Quote from: 1Referee on December 28, 2019, 08:56:52 AM

Even if banks fall (which I don't believe they will), something else will replace them and that something else might very well be even worse than the current banks you want to see fall. In that regard, be careful what you wish for, because it can back fire on you and everyone else very hard.

I have a hard time seeing the model fundamentally changing either. Then again, there have been times of extreme distrust in banks (the "cash under the mattress" days) and it seems like we're entering another similar period. If this element of distrust were combined with, say, collapsing fiat currencies, who knows what could happen? These are interesting times, that's all I know.

veleten

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well for one none cares if some wise guys are using a bank to collect money directed against the system that the bank is a part of
this is simply not clever to put it mildly
HSBC is an old bank that made money on opium wars and is involved in all kind of controversy , google it if you want to know more
not that they are even any different from all of the banks around the world
most of them are serving one purpose and the sooner we get rid of them the better

xen1oph

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If people begin to use crypto on a massive scale, then no one will have any problems with banks. It’s so simple. But at the same time, it is so difficult at present. Most people are not ready for any changes. Rather, people want a better life, but do not want to do anything for this.

CarnagexD

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Quote from: el kaka22 on December 27, 2019, 12:37:52 PM

HSBC is a British bank from headquarters if I am not wrong. So, that means they are not a Hong Kong bank like the name suggests nor they are a Chinese bank. When you look at it as a British bank that has nothing to do with the governmental approach of china or the protests of Hong Kong people you can realize why HSBC is favoring the powerhouse here and not the protesters. It is obvious that bank wants to be sided with China who would be making them more profits and not care about the small time protesters that may not help them at all in the future.

No. HSBC is originally from the Hong Kong, HSBC stands for Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporations but you are right the headquarters is located somewhere in U.K. Prior to that information, basically there is a big fraction of China that has the control to the bank, and HSBC itself don't want to withdraw their asset worth billions just to go with HK protesters.

Quote from: el kaka22 on December 27, 2019, 12:37:52 PM

I can understand the naming of the bank should give them some loyalty but this is a bank we are talking about and they will always favor the party that will make them more profits over humanity any time they are tasked such a decision.

Banks are being banks no matter how silly the situation from the outside world is, money will be more important to wealthy people.

1Referee

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Quote from: CryptoBuzzerd on December 27, 2019, 07:01:20 AM

The faster world banks fall in the form in which they are, the faster the digital future will come. I'm not sure everyone will like it, but it will definitely swing each of us

Digital future is already here. Banks by far conduct most of their transactions digitally, which means that it concerns dozens of trillions worth of transactions every single day. Banks in various countries have rolled out instant transfers, and that regardless of the day or hour. You no longer have to wait a full business day for your money to post in your bank account, that's awesome.

Even if banks fall (which I don't believe they will), something else will replace them and that something else might very well be even worse than the current banks you want to see fall. In that regard, be careful what you wish for, because it can back fire on you and everyone else very hard. Nothing changes if the people on top of the food chain don't change.

If by digital future you mean that crypto will take over, I highly doubt it. It's an alternative and will likely stay that for ever, especially if in so many countries the legal status of Bitcoin is different. It's not going to become legal tender ever.

Lucius

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Quote from: el kaka22 on December 27, 2019, 12:37:52 PM

HSBC is a British bank from headquarters if I am not wrong. So, that means they are not a Hong Kong bank like the name suggests nor they are a Chinese bank.

There is no doubt about that, you just have to read my previous post and visit the HSBC Wiki link. The fact that HSBC HQ is in London does not mean that decisions on such matters are made solely there, this was a decision of a subsidiary in HK. China is too strong for the UK to do anything about, and yet it is an internal issue of one country that no one clever will interfere with (who wants to risk a conflict with China except the USA?)

I don't think using banks for cases like this makes sense at all, because this would happen anywhere in the world. It is a fully centralized system that can freeze any account at any time, especially those that fund protests. WikiLeaks BTC account was banned few years ago by Coinbase, so it doesn't make much sense in what some say protesters should have collect donations in crypto.

The centralized crypto is identical to the centralized fiat, the only way is to be your own bank, but even then you may have big problems with selling crypto on centralized exchanges.

el kaka22

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HSBC is a British bank from headquarters if I am not wrong. So, that means they are not a Hong Kong bank like the name suggests nor they are a Chinese bank. When you look at it as a British bank that has nothing to do with the governmental approach of china or the protests of Hong Kong people you can realize why HSBC is favoring the powerhouse here and not the protesters. It is obvious that bank wants to be sided with China who would be making them more profits and not care about the small time protesters that may not help them at all in the future.

I can understand the naming of the bank should give them some loyalty but this is a bank we are talking about and they will always favor the party that will make them more profits over humanity any time they are tasked such a decision.

MuffinMaster

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If that is the case then all banks must be banned since they all are anti crypto. Government backed central banks have showed there intentions very early against crypto and those who think that bank will adopt our unregulated crypto are living in fools paradise.

dothebeats

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HSBC IMO is just caught between a rock and a hard place. As a banking entity who wishes to just create profits and profits, they would love to take the money of the HK protesters and use it somewhere else. Then again, they have to comply with what the Chinese government wants else they would be facing severe repercussions in the end.

Too bad for the HK protesters they have used a bank which have been known to conspire with elite money launderers and fraudsters, and that is the government and other head honchos of crime syndicates all over the world.

Lucius

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Who with a little common sense can use a bank like HSBC for anything, least of all to raise donations for protests directed directly against the communist regime? Well, in that recent past, that bank has been involved in global money laundering of drug sales, terrorist financing and all kinds of financial fraud. HSBC is a bank founded by the British (1865) and served primarily for opium trades, and little has changed since that period.

When HSBC was just one step from the prohibition of work in USA, the British prime minister personally intervened to prevent this from happening, and everything is forgotten for $2 billion fines. Protesters in Hong Kong may complain to the British government over human rights abuses, but this will not help them too much because no one will interfere with China's internal affairs.

For a better understanding of what kind of bank it is, I suggest you read a wiki article, especially the part Controversies

CryptoBuzzerd

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The faster world banks fall in the form in which they are, the faster the digital future will come. I'm not sure everyone will like it, but it will definitely swing each of us

Mometaskers

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Quote from: Hydrogen on December 25, 2019, 04:33:34 AM

Hong Kong protest groups were accused of money laundering. People were arrested and accounts were shut down. Perhaps similar to crypto being described as a "safe haven for criminals and money launderers" whenever the mainstream media needs to create generic content to push a negative publicity campaign against it.

Kinda funny considering HSBC itself has been charged with laundering money for Mexican cartels, which they've had to pay $1.9B in fines in the US. But yes, HSBC is in a pickle. It cannot defy the CPC.

I think this just highlights the need for crypto. These companies can just block you for whatever reason they deem "justified". For example Paypal have been going after conservative Youtubers.

justdimin

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I guess I kinda understand the "money laundering" charges against them, what were they suppose to say "we do not want you to have financial power" ? That is not going to happen, of course they will say something like money laundering, or any other crime really, doesn't matter what the made up crime they can throw at them the end result was to cut their financial aid and help so that protesters wouldn't have some sort of decent organization.

If you gather enough money and buy enough products then you can distribute it evenly among all protesters who need it, that is literally turning into a coup, so they just simply made up some reasons.

China has ALWAYS been bad, not just now but in its entire history since CCP started, they are not going to just let this one away, these are the same people who let 20+ million starve to death, that is more than most countries entire population, that is literally 3-4 European country combined, you think they will stop? Boycotting or sanctioning against HSBC will not make one single difference.

Yatsan

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Quote from: blckhawk on December 26, 2019, 12:23:33 AM

Banks are left with no choice. They run on fiat, under the government. Non-compliance would hurt their business more. They can't pretty much do anything, since the government politicians and law enforcement could always use their power at their will. They also aren't able to support cryptocurrencies either since it is also restricted by the government.

HSBC is not in control of such, articles also states that the account closing was conducted by the police, and not voluntarily conducted by HSBC themselves.

It is not that HSBC left with no choice but rather they are the one who is making the choice. Technically Hong Kong is just a part of China so whatever the China does they are affected too especially these days that Hong Kong is in fight for their freedom against China. However China doesn't have the full control on HSBC but there is a huge fraction of HSBC that is operating on China which will cost them billions if they choose to reside with Hong Kong's protesters. This is also why there is a surge on bitcoin's price in Hong Kong because of the crisis they are experiencing right now.

1Referee

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Quote from: Hydrogen on December 26, 2019, 06:10:26 AM

How do you explain the following.

#1 Banks regularly laundering money for drug cartels contrary to laws made by governments.
#2 Banks taking action, punishing entire nations like the UK for their pro brexit stance.
#3 Banks closing the accounts of US workers in the adult entertainment industry.

There are countless examples of banks implementing policies which go directly against the national interest.

Sad reality indeed. In some cases banks do have to adhere to the laws the government has outlined, which sucks for the people in these countries, but banks always manage to break laws in other areas and get away with it. In this case I would say that the penalties are too soft because all banks do is pay a measly fine and they are free to continue operating.

Coming back to the first point you brought up, namely money laundering; the fines banks end up paying probably don't even account for 10% of the profit banks make. It's more like collateral damage to them. It's written off as a loss in their "books" even before they are fined. It's a joke. Why would they stop doing that when it's so exorbitantly profitable?

In the end, banks such as HSBC enforcing sanctions against people just do that because they have too many things going on in China that they don't want to risk losing. It's their financial incentive that goes against the incentives of the people, or more precisely said, a bunch of numbers in their database that aren't profitable to the bank. It's a mess, and people as always suffer. Undecided

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Quote from: avikz on December 25, 2019, 04:10:04 PM

HSBC has no choice but to comply with what China government wants! Freezing an account of a consumer is not a decision what banks love to take! Because they can't use that fund but still have to maintain an account number in their books. That's a loss for the banks.

I believe HSBC is just trying to balance out things for themselves and hence they are forced to freeze accounts of the protesters in the name of illegal usage of banking channel. HSBC is trying not to make the Dragon angry!

This is one of such scenarios where we understand the need of cryptos in naked eye!

This.

HSBC tried to hold out, but their Hong Kong CEO, John Flint was forced out in August for siding with the Hong Kong protesters:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/04/investing/hsbc-ceo-steps-down/index.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-09/hsbc-s-greater-china-chief-helen-wong-unexpectedly-resigns

Quote

The head of HSBC Holdings Plc’s key China business resigned, the latest senior management change in a week that saw Europe’s largest lender oust its top executive.

Helen Wong announced her departure as head of Greater China in July to pursue another opportunity, and this is her last day at the bank, spokeswoman Maggie Cheung said Friday. Wong, one of the bank’s most senior women, had been in the role for about four years and worked at HSBC since 1992.

Her departure caps a week that started with the ouster of former Chief Executive Officer John Flint after just 18 months in the role, with the bank saying an “increasingly complex” environment of geopolitical tensions and risks to growth demanded new leadership.

So - both of them forced out within a week after Flint made comments supportive of the protesters.

My guess is that HSBC was told that their business in China would be shut down if they didn't clamp down. Not sure there is anything they can do - John Flint tried and paid the price.

Topic: Hong Kong protestors call for sanctions against HSBC bank (Read 338 times)