House Edge -- Is It Really Required?

deisik

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Quote from: xxjumperxx on June 10, 2020, 01:14:06 AM

Exactly.
Noone is running a casino out of the kindness of their heart.
Its a business and that business is here to make the owner money.
Simple as that.

that sounds greedy

As the saying goes, every business serves two masters, its customer and its bottom line

Quote from: peter0425 on June 10, 2020, 02:28:34 AM

Because gambling is too far from other Business,In gambling there are people that must lose their money without getting product or anything in return while in other business we can at least take what we want to have before going home

I don't think gambling is actually different

What players (consumers) are supposed to get in return is satisfaction from the game, i.e. essentially the same as with any other product sold out there. If you are not satisfied with what you've got, this is understandable and kind of expected. But you can be just as dissatisfied with virtually anything you pay your shekels for

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Quote from: Debonaire217 on June 13, 2020, 11:46:56 PM

Most of the gambling casinos programmed their advantage in a long term operation, and that means that gamblers will still have a good chance of winning even huge amount of bets.

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The House Edge is a term used to describe the mathematical advantage that the gambling game, and therefore the commercial gambling venue, has over you as you play over time. This advantage results in an assured percentage return to the venue over time, and for you an assured percentage loss of what you bet.

- ABOUT THE HOUSE EDGE

Yes, I agree house edge is not a mean to scam or cheat us, it has certain parameters before it is implemented, if you are playing in gambling casinos you will notice that you will not feel or will have an idea that you have been cheated it's still fair, you just have to get used to it to fell that house edge is really required.

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It is likely to favor the House in the long term so to explain, House edge is really required especially to sustain the casino's service as a business and gamblers should understand that but it doesn't mean that they will often lose.

Most of the gambling casinos programmed their advantage in a long term operation, and that means that gamblers will still have a good chance of winning even huge amount of bets.

Quote

The House Edge is a term used to describe the mathematical advantage that the gambling game, and therefore the commercial gambling venue, has over you as you play over time. This advantage results in an assured percentage return to the venue over time, and for you an assured percentage loss of what you bet.

- ABOUT THE HOUSE EDGE

robelneo

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Quote from: Renampun on June 12, 2020, 11:59:40 AM

of course, that Required IMO...
a house edge is a form of our support for a gambling site. without a house edge, the gambling site developer will have difficulty building their businesses and will only make them close their businesses in the future due to the lack of funds to support.

This what makes online casinos profitable and they can run for a long time because of the house edge I am supporting house edge, no business can sustain without profit, as long as they can process payout and people have no issues with their support people will play on these online casinos.

I don't think gamblers are complaining from the house edge, they are only complaining if they are not processing their payout I have seen a lot of complaints in the scam section some casinos are very slow in processing the payout when the amount is big.

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Quote from: deisik on June 12, 2020, 08:35:41 AM

If we have one casino (more or less provably fair) and 1000 players, all of them using a very safe martingale setup, within a limited time span, say, a year, they will drain the casino bankroll dry, even if some of them are set to bust based on their probabilities. In other words, their combined profits will exceed their combined losses, and it can and most certainly will be enough to drive the casino out of business.

It could, but it absolutely isn't certain. If the house edge is 1% then any Martingale setup, including a "very safe" one (or any setup or strategy for that matter), will average at returns of 99% for the player(s) and 1% profit for the casino. It doesn't matter if there is 1 player or 1000, if some of them bust or none of them do, how "safe" their strategy is. Their expected returns will be 99% of their amount bet.

They could get lucky and drain the casino dry, but they could equally all go bust and give the casino a nice profit.

Quote from: deisik on June 12, 2020, 08:35:41 AM

This is not how the term has been used here.

Regardless of how you use the term, "zero sum game" has a very precise and clear meaning, in which there is no net gain or net loss between all participants. If you mean something else, then you should use a different term.

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Quote from: bearexin on June 09, 2020, 03:40:15 PM

but at the same time we are talking about a "guaranteed" over a "probability" and I would pick guaranteed income for my casino over a probable one any day of the week. Considering even with the current house edge system there is abundant amount of costs to run, they really need that guaranteed income for sure

In fact, we are not talking about a "guaranteed" over a "probability" revenue flows

If anything, these two revenue flows are adding up, not canceling each other out. And if we could leave a casino with the income procured by the house edge alone, I think most casinos would quickly starve to bankruptcy. This is just an assumption but a pretty solid one, though. If the casino operators were earning only the house edge, like 1% on the gamblers' balances, there wouldn't be much to run it on, anyway

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Gambling websites used to earn from the house edge. So if there is no house edge then they will go for an alternative income source like showing ads to the players that will not be that much comfortable for a player.
There are some casinos that used to have lots of giveaways, lotteries using a part of the house edge to make the platform more enjoyable.

Renampun

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of course, that Required IMO...
a house edge is a form of our support for a gambling site. without a house edge, the gambling site developer will have difficulty building their businesses and will only make them close their businesses in the future due to the lack of funds to support.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 09, 2020, 10:37:54 AM

Quote from: deisik on June 09, 2020, 06:53:45 AM

A bunch of wily and artful gamblers can slowly but surely drain a casino's bankroll empty, and drive it out of business without any luck involved.

How? There is no way to "surely" drain a casino's bankroll, unless that casino is offering flawed games that can be cheated, such as blackjack with only one or two decks and not clamping down on card counting

No, I don't mean anything to that tune

I mostly refer to dice as I'm best familiar with this game and how things work in practice with it. If we have one casino (more or less provably fair) and 1000 players, all of them using a very safe martingale setup, within a limited time span, say, a year, they will drain the casino bankroll dry, even if some of them are set to bust based on their probabilities. In other words, their combined profits will exceed their combined losses, and it can and most certainly will be enough to drive the casino out of business. The keyword here is variance, and in this case it will be playing against the house and its edge

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 09, 2020, 10:37:54 AM

Quote from: deisik on June 09, 2020, 06:53:45 AM

It can't possibly be a zero sum game for the simple reason someone is set to bust at the end of the day

A zero sum game is a game where the net gain and net losses by all participants is balanced - hence the sum of all gains and all losses is zero. Gambling is indeed a zero sum game, since the gains of the player are perfectly balanced by the losses of the casino, and vice versa. If my bankroll is $100 and I go bust, then I have lost $100, but as the casino has gained that $100, the sum is zero. It is a zero sum game

This is not how the term has been used here. It is used in the context of no one winning in the very long run on square odds

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Quote from: deisik on June 11, 2020, 04:30:11 PM

Quote from: sujonali1819 on June 09, 2020, 09:24:40 AM

My opinion about the house edge:

I think the house edge an extra opportunity for the casino owners of getting more profit from the casinos. And most of the players also take it easily, So why casino owners don't take this opportunity? They always looking for profits. So they will not remove the house edge from their site until the players start to avoid these casinos(which has house edge)

And the house edge of 1% seems to be a well established and widely accepted figure

I'm sure that wealthy casinos could make it even lower without incurring any losses, but it would likely raise unnecessary suspicions and concerns about the legitimacy of their operation. Really, we are all so used to the house edge that if we were to see a casino boasting a zero house edge, it would instantly trigger alarm bells among the gambling folks. And other casinos would be just as quick and happy to point a finger and then pull a trigger. So that's how the house edge came to be and will stay around

I believe there are now safe methods to check if a casino is honest about its odds. If they can do that and let people verify their numbers there should be no problem.

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Quote from: sujonali1819 on June 09, 2020, 09:24:40 AM

My opinion about the house edge:

I think the house edge an extra opportunity for the casino owners of getting more profit from the casinos. And most of the players also take it easily, So why casino owners don't take this opportunity? They always looking for profits. So they will not remove the house edge from their site until the players start to avoid these casinos(which has house edge)

And the house edge of 1% seems to be a well established and widely accepted figure

I'm sure that wealthy casinos could make it even lower without incurring any losses, but it would likely raise unnecessary suspicions and concerns about the legitimacy of their operation. Really, we are all so used to the house edge that if we were to see a casino boasting a zero house edge, it would instantly trigger alarm bells among the gambling folks. And other casinos would be just as quick and happy to point a finger and then pull a trigger. So that's how the house edge came to be and will stay around

spike420211

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It seems that everything rests solely on the value of consumption.

In the current world, with the current spread of the "religion" of consumption and private property, one cannot expect that someone will do something just like that.

However, if you imagine that the owners of the casino do not need profit and have unconditional income from the state.
Then in this case, they may well have no reason to collect House Edge because they will not need profit.

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Quote from: tyKiwanuka on June 09, 2020, 08:47:42 AM

Quote from: deisik on June 09, 2020, 06:53:45 AM

It can't possibly be a zero sum game for the simple reason someone is set to bust at the end of the day

How so ? If I play with 0.1% stake (or whatever) of my bankroll for each "bet", I can never go broke. And with no house edge, over a big enough sample size, my bankroll will be the same as to when I started playing

It's actually quite the opposite

I'm not sure what you mean by "a big enough sample size" (and while we are at it, there are issues with understanding what you mean by "a zero sum game" here as well). If by "never" you mean never in your life, then I would agree with you. If, on the other hand, you mean never as never on an infinite timeframe, then it is just a matter of time until someone busts, you or your opponent. You can bet 1 dollar out of 10 dollars and bust in a hundred bets, or you can bet 1 dollar out of 1 million dollars and still bust at a certain point in the future, no matter how distant it could be

Quote from: tyKiwanuka on June 09, 2020, 08:47:42 AM

Quote from: deisik on June 07, 2020, 01:42:52 PM

(...) but it will still be making profits with a zero house edge simply because it will be able to stay in the game longer than any other player.

If you disallow Martingale and everyone plays with a proper money management*, there are no winners here, it's a zero sum game. Doesn't matter if the casino has gazillion times the bankroll of all their players combined

It is not a "zero sum game" in the way you mean it ("no winners here"). To repeat, on an infinite timeframe with finite bankrolls there'll be enough variance to take out everyone but the winner (as the winner takes it all). And someone with a bigger bankroll (read, a casino) has a higher chance to be that winner at the end of it since once you bust, it's a gameover for you (and your money)

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I did a search and found AGLC a charitable gaming model located in Canada.
Alberta manages licenses for charity activities related to the casino, raffle, bingo and pull ticket.
I see that Alberta is an organization that aims to reach big casinos and that they can create their charity events.

https://aglc.ca/gaming/charitablegaming/albertas-charitable-gaming-model

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Quote from: deisik on June 10, 2020, 02:27:52 PM

Quote from: swogerino on June 09, 2020, 06:54:46 AM

In order for a casino to be successful and profitable it is a must to have the house edge implemented.In the Op theory that the larger bankroll makes you stay longer online and play longer is not true in all cases.Some player can be smart and win a lot in poker making this casino lose all its bankroll

There's no house edge in poker

In poker rooms you play against other (allegedly) human players. In that case the casino just subtracts some percentage from the amount taken home by the winner. With that said, I agree that a smart player can take on a house edge provided by a bigger bankroll in exactly the same way as he can do on a regular house edge, and ultimately drain the casino's bankroll empty. It doesn't happen in real life for the sole reason most players are not reasonable at all (pardon the pun)

It's like a sports betting IMO, there is no house edge but you have to pay the commission if you win. Also, as a bookies, they also balance the bets so in the end they will still end up with a good commission, and that's the different with casinos as sports betting is specifically like a player vs player game, bookies are just the facilitators.

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Survival of the fittest model, eh?

Relying simply on a huge bankroll to outlast the players isn't going to cut it. The house also need some profit in order to make it through and pay their employees' wages. If no house edge is imposed, it will be like charity on games wherein luck + house edge matters, e.g. dice. While they can 'last' longer than their players' burnt wallets, I can see no profits for them in order to motivate them to operate. Well, card games and other PVP games aren't affected by house edge but hey, most of the games on a casino are just you and yourself.

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Quote from: swogerino on June 09, 2020, 06:54:46 AM

In order for a casino to be successful and profitable it is a must to have the house edge implemented.In the Op theory that the larger bankroll makes you stay longer online and play longer is not true in all cases.Some player can be smart and win a lot in poker making this casino lose all its bankroll

There's no house edge in poker

In poker rooms you play against other (allegedly) human players. In that case the casino just subtracts some percentage from the amount taken home by the winner. With that said, I agree that a smart player can take on a house edge provided by a bigger bankroll in exactly the same way as he can do on a regular house edge, and ultimately drain the casino's bankroll empty. It doesn't happen in real life for the sole reason most players are not reasonable at all (pardon the pun)

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Quote from: DarkDays on June 10, 2020, 01:47:04 PM

That said, I'd like to see a zero house edge casino that is instead funded by advertising revenue or a different business model. Not sure any currently exist right now.

This is indeed a good idea but considering the spam of ads, that might scare the players away. I also wanted to see a zero house edge casino but without these advertising revenues Grin

. Imagine playing a game when every 5 or 10 turns, ads pop up (I was talking about a mobile game), that is so irritating.

DarkDays

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I understand what you're saying, but you're basically arguing that they'll stand a better chance at turning a profit if they're betting against the player simply because they can outlast them.

This isn't the case really when you consider that people are playing with multipliers. They'd need to be tens of thousands or even millions of times larger than the max win amount possible from a bet allowed by the platform. Otherwise a large number of players would eventually turn the tides against the banker, even if they don't match their bankroll.

That said, I'd like to see a zero house edge casino that is instead funded by advertising revenue or a different business model. Not sure any currently exist right now.

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Quote from: SquallLeonhart on June 09, 2020, 02:27:17 AM

Quote from: deisik on June 07, 2020, 01:42:52 PM

Let's imagine an extremely wealthy casino whose bankroll size by far exceeds the bankrolls of all its players combined. Will this casino need a house edge to earn profits? As I see it, the house edge would make for more revenue flow, but it will still be making profits with a zero house edge simply because it will be able to stay in the game longer than any other player.

Why Microsoft is not stopping about catching pirated copy of windows even they are one of the world's biggest corporate and their founder is top richest of world for consistently more than a decade

I don't really know

I don't know about how things have been for the last decade or so, but before that they were famous for very lax policies toward software piracy. As I can see, quite a few people in this thread come up with examples without checking or just caring about whether their examples have any bearing on real circumstances or events. Regardless, Microsoft or its policies against pirated copies of Windows have nothing to do with the topic raised here

Quote from: SquallLeonhart on June 09, 2020, 02:27:17 AM

Bill Gates is ready to donate millions to billion dollars for philanthropy purposes but never think about forgiving a licence issue which costs ~$150

We have already agreed that Microsoft was a poor analogy, up to a point of not being an analogy at all. But you are welcome to suggest a better one

Topic: House Edge -- Is It Really Required? (Read 1275 times)