Pages:
Author

Topic: How a floating blocksize limit inevitably leads towards centralization - page 22. (Read 71613 times)

legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
I thought one of the main points being brought up is that on the contrary it allows Joe Superminer to progressively drive more and more competitors off the net until he and he along controls all the mining. (Presumably pretending to be more than one mining operation, of course, to keep people from noticing he has become the sole arbiter of the network.)
Did you read the proposal? The decision about how large blocks can be rests with the nodes which relay blocks, not the miners.

If Joe Superminer controls enough of the hashing power and the p2p network to force a change through he could ruin the network today, with or without any change to the protocol.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
I don't see how a hard fork is somehow not Bitcoin. It's simply an upgrade.

There are no backwards incompatible upgrades in Bitcoin, otherwise I wouldn't be here or have use for it.

As far as the hard fork goes didn't we have a couple of those last year anyway, such as multisig transactions?

Nope, all soft forks and backwards compatible - inherently different from a hard fork.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
What exactly is wrong with this proposal, that justifies all this drama?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1503099

That proposal does not force miners to increase the size of their blocks, or include any transactions they don't want to include.

It does not force any node to relay or store blocks they don't want to.

It allows the maximum block size to be determined by distributed consensus instead of centrally managed by fiat. That's the exact opposite of what people are complaining about, and the solution of leaving the limit in place is the problem they claim to want to avoid.

As far as the hard fork goes didn't we have a couple of those last year anyway, such as multisig transactions?

I thought one of the main points being brought up is that on the contrary it allows Joe Superminer to progressively drive more and more competitors off the net until he and he alone controls all the mining. (Presumably pretending to be more than one mining operation, of course, to keep people from noticing he has become the sole arbiter of the network.)

-MarkM-
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
The upgraded Bitcoin basically only needs services such as Blockchain.info, BitPay, Coinbase, Mt. Gox and such behind it, and everything else is irrelevant. Without those services there is no Bitcoin, no nothing. With them, it's a done deal. The ones advocating for a hard fork need to make sure all the major services and mining pools are on board and it's basically done.

Obviously there needs to be a significant amount of time involved so that the magnitude of the change can be communicated to all types of users.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
What exactly is wrong with this proposal, that justifies all this drama?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1503099

That proposal does not force miners to increase the size of their blocks, or include any transactions they don't want to include.

It does not force any node to relay or store blocks they don't want to.

It allows the maximum block size to be determined by distributed consensus instead of centrally managed by fiat. That's the exact opposite of what people are complaining about, and the solution of leaving the limit in place is the problem they claim to want to avoid.

As far as the hard fork goes didn't we have a couple of those last year anyway, such as multisig transactions?
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
I don't see how a hard fork is somehow not Bitcoin. It's simply an upgrade. A bigger upgrade, but an upgrade nonetheless. If it is done in the face of serious controversy and there is a real split, then there is a naming problem. Otherwise it's just as much Bitcoin, just a new version.

It could be Bitcoin version 2.0 for example. If there is a permanent split, then the other network would be called something else.

I'm going to side with the version where the block size limit is raised, that is for sure. If it is done in a smart way though, it's a big change and needs to be thought of carefully. I don't advocate "just raising it", I advocate planning the change well and thinking about the long term future as well.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
- snip -
I agree. I even think if ever a hard fork in Bitcoin should happen the new version should have a completely new name so that users who stay on the old version know they still use their Bitcoin and the users of the new version know that what they're using isn't Bitcoin anymore.

Who gets to decide which fork gets to claim to be "Bitcoin"?  If users of both forks decide they are the true "Bitcoin", how is the naming issue resolved?

This is maybe the real reason for making the Bitcoin Foundation: to trademark the name, so whatever popsicle-coin of the day they come up with gets the "network effect" associated with the "brand"...

-MarkM-
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
you could never get away with a hard fork on this point so the best you could do is create an alternative cryptocurrency which you would then become the developer of instead of bitcoin.

Why not?  All he'd have to do is code the change, offer it as the new version of the "reference client" and see how many people accepted it.  What percentage would have to accept the hard fork for it to become viable? 50%? 20%? 5%?


Lowering the difficulty of the real, as in original, bitcoin, so the rest of us can go on mining the original, high value per coin, international settlements bitcoins while he goes on to make a payment network for people to buy popsibles with. Sounds interesting... Especially with everyone having their coins from the past still exist on both chains, the original and the new popsicle-coin chain.

-MarkM-
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
- snip -
I agree. I even think if ever a hard fork in Bitcoin should happen the new version should have a completely new name so that users who stay on the old version know they still use their Bitcoin and the users of the new version know that what they're using isn't Bitcoin anymore.

Who gets to decide which fork gets to claim to be "Bitcoin"?  If users of both forks decide they are the true "Bitcoin", how is the naming issue resolved?

Bitcoin will be what Bitcoin is right now. I didn't say the name of the new version will change or users of the new version will want it to change, they may well want it to stay Bitcoin, doesn't make it Bitcoin though and I don't think it should be called Bitcoin. But that is my opinion and it depends how much that matters.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 4895
- snip -
I agree. I even think if ever a hard fork in Bitcoin should happen the new version should have a completely new name so that users who stay on the old version know they still use their Bitcoin and the users of the new version know that what they're using isn't Bitcoin anymore.

Who gets to decide which fork gets to claim to be "Bitcoin"?  If users of both forks decide they are the true "Bitcoin", how is the naming issue resolved?
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 4895
you could never get away with a hard fork on this point so the best you could do is create an alternative cryptocurrency which you would then become the developer of instead of bitcoin.

Why not?  All he'd have to do is code the change, offer it as the new version of the "reference client" and see how many people accepted it.  What percentage would have to accept the hard fork for it to become viable? 50%? 20%? 5%?
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1094
Quote
This raises the issue of exchange rates between chains.  A user might see their "bitcoin" total vary over time if it has stored some of the coins as bitcoin-chain7 and bitcoin-chain12 coins.
Heck you could even build chains that have fixed exchange rates built into their atomic between-chain transactions protocol if you are really worried about it. For most people most of the time it would probably suffice to denominate their life-savings account in bitcoin and let their day to day pocketmoney account just use whatever Ripple determines is the most efficient way to buy lunch on a given day.

Yeah, I think a fixed rate is a good idea.  However, it would only work if built into the system and again, it makes combining of coins bloating the main chain.

Each chain could be given a minimum number of bitcoins.  You can split a coin in 2 (or 10) and move it down to the next chain.  That makes each "chain" actually like a type of coin (good analogy there btw).

I wonder if something like Chaum's scheme could be used to "issue" coins.  You pay "coins" into a special txo and later coins can be anonymously verified and reincorporated into the top-level chain as a tx-in.

Over issue could happen if the underlying encryption is broken though.  The rule could be if 10000 coins were issued to a lower chain, then the first 10000 redeemed are the only ones to count.

Different chains could have different security.  As long as you trust the top chain and the digital cash, you can trust the coins too.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
So...  I start from "more transactions == more success"

I strongly feel that we shouldn't aim for Bitcoin topping out as a "high power money" system that can process only 7 transactions per second.

I agree with Stephen Pair-- THAT would be a highly centralized system.

Oh, sure, mining might be decentralized.  But who cares if you either have to be a gazillionaire to participate directly on the network as an ordinary transaction-creating customer, or have to have your transactions processed via some centralized, trusted, off-the-chain transaction processing service?

So, as I've said before:  we're running up against the artificial 250K block size limit now, I would like to see what happens. There are lots of moving pieces here, so I don't think ANYBODY really knows what will happen (maybe miners will collectively decide to keep the block size low, so they get more fees.  Maybe they will max it out to force out miners on slow networks.  Maybe they will keep it small so their blocks relay through slow connections faster (maybe there will be a significant fraction of mining power listening for new blocks behind tor, but blasting out new blocks not via tor)).


I think we should put users first. What do users want? They want low transaction fees and fast confirmations. Lets design for that case, because THE USERS are who ultimately give Bitcoin value.


you could never get away with a hard fork on this point so the best you could do is create an alternative cryptocurrency which you would then become the developer of instead of bitcoin. In this respect i say more power to you! lets get some healthy competition in the cryptocurrency market! (litecoin doesnt count as competition)

I agree. I even think if ever a hard fork in Bitcoin should happen the new version should have a completely new name so that users who stay on the old version know they still use their Bitcoin and the users of the new version know that what they're using isn't Bitcoin anymore.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
So...  I start from "more transactions == more success"

I strongly feel that we shouldn't aim for Bitcoin topping out as a "high power money" system that can process only 7 transactions per second.

I agree with Stephen Pair-- THAT would be a highly centralized system.

Oh, sure, mining might be decentralized.  But who cares if you either have to be a gazillionaire to participate directly on the network as an ordinary transaction-creating customer, or have to have your transactions processed via some centralized, trusted, off-the-chain transaction processing service?

So, as I've said before:  we're running up against the artificial 250K block size limit now, I would like to see what happens. There are lots of moving pieces here, so I don't think ANYBODY really knows what will happen (maybe miners will collectively decide to keep the block size low, so they get more fees.  Maybe they will max it out to force out miners on slow networks.  Maybe they will keep it small so their blocks relay through slow connections faster (maybe there will be a significant fraction of mining power listening for new blocks behind tor, but blasting out new blocks not via tor)).


I think we should put users first. What do users want? They want low transaction fees and fast confirmations. Lets design for that case, because THE USERS are who ultimately give Bitcoin value.


you could never get away with a hard fork on this point so the best you could do is create an alternative cryptocurrency which you would then become the developer of instead of bitcoin. In this respect i say more power to you! lets get some healthy competition in the cryptocurrency market! (litecoin doesnt count as competition)
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
Quote
This raises the issue of exchange rates between chains.  A user might see their "bitcoin" total vary over time if it has stored some of the coins as bitcoin-chain7 and bitcoin-chain12 coins.
You would store value in the primary chain, whenever you feel the fees involved in dealing with the primary chain make it worth your while. It is similar to deciding whether to hoard gold bars, expensive to trade, or local currency, easy to trade.

Here in Canada one-cent coins are being dropped, any value I stored in pennies is trying to go away.

Moral of the story presumably is go buy whole bitcoins when you have accumulated the vast amount of wealth one entire bitcoin amounts to, and don't buy too many of the tiniest-value chain's coin, just enough to go buy a few days' popsicles or whatever.

People's penny-collections are going out of date, its a gamble whether the raw metal they are made of makes them worth continuing to hoard or one should go buy loonies with them.

Its not an insurmountable problem else farthings and halfpennies would not have gone out of style presumably.

Heck you could even build chains that have fixed exchange rates built into their atomic between-chain transactions protocol if you are really worried about it. For most people most of the time it would probably suffice to denominate their life-savings account in bitcoin and let their day to day pocketmoney account just use whatever Ripple determines is the most efficient way to buy lunch on a given day.

-MarkM-
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
Interesting debate.

First of all, my opinion: I'm in favor of increasing the block size limit in a hard fork, but very much against removing the limit entirely. Bitcoin is a consensus of its users, who all agreed (or will need to agree) to a very strict set of rules that would allow people to build global decentralized payment system. I think very few people understand a forever-limited block size to be part of these rules.

...

My suggestion would be a one-time increase to perhaps 10 MiB or 100 MiB blocks (to be debated), and after that an at-most slow exponential further growth. This would mean no for-eternity limited size, but also no way for miners to push up block sizes to the point where they are in sole control of the network. I realize that some people will consider this an arbitrary and unnecessary limit, but others will probably consider it dangerous already. In any case, it's a compromise and I believe one will be necessary.

Realize that Bitcoin's decentralization only comes from very strict - and sometimes arbitrary - rules (why this particular 50/25/12.5 payout scheme, why ECDSA, why only those opcodes in scripts, ...) that were set right from the start and agreed upon by everyone who ever used the system. Were those rules "central planning" too?

I tend to agree with Pieter.

First of all, the true nature of Bitcoin seems to be the rigid protocol as it helps the credibility among masses. Otherwise one day you remove block size limit, next day remove ECDSA, then change block frequency to 1 per minute, then print more coins. It actually sounds more appropriate to do such changes under a different implementation.

Then I can't help this: With such floating block limit isn't everyone afraid of chain splits? I can imagine a split occurring by a big block being accepted by 60% of the nodes and rejected by the rest.

How about tying the maximum block size to mining difficulty?
...
The difficulty also goes up with increasing hardware capabilities, I'd expect that the difficulty increase due to this factor will track the increase of technical capabilities of computers in general.

This sounds interesting.


I think we should put users first. What do users want? They want low transaction fees and fast confirmations.
This comes down to Bitcoin as a payment network versus Bitcoin as a store of value. I thought it was already determined that there will always be better payment networks that function as alternatives to Bitcoin. A user who cares about the store of value use-case, is going to want the network hash rate to be as high as possible. This is at odds with low transaction fees and fast confirmations.
This!

Bitcoin is about citizen empowerment. When ordinary citizen can't run their own validating nodes anymore you lost that feature (independent from the question of hashing). Then bitcoin is commercialized. The bitcoin devs need to keep that in mind. (If you need to freshen up on your brainwash, here's a great presentation from Rick Falkvinge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjmuPqkVwWc)

+100


For me a Neewb, I was attracted to Bitcoin due to it's decentralized nature and the ability for anyone to mine, We already have centralised currency systems that have been corrupted and do not work for the people, so please can we stay away from that paradime, I know it is the natural evolution of organisations to do so but these systems always become self serving, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Now that things have progressed it seems hopeless for an average guy to be able to compete or make and money mining, Even considering I have experience in sysadmin and can pick up some nice dual quad-core xeon servers, It'd be nice if average nerd could still make some money and contribute to the decentralization and transaction processing of the network, with the kind of hardware now being disposed of by corporations. For me I do not care if transaction fees are a little higher or if transactions take longer,, I do care about how centralized the transaction power is and who has control of it.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 4895
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1094
Basically it allows the existing hashing power to secure more stuff, with each chain of more stuff being separately optional to the miners, so miners too small to handle 150 chains could opt to only mine 75 of them, those that cannot handle that many handle less, the tiniest miners maybe even mining only the primary chain or even only one of the secondary chains.

This raises the issue of exchange rates between chains.  A user might see their "bitcoin" total vary over time if it has stored some of the coins as bitcoin-chain7 and bitcoin-chain12 coins.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
@markm ok that could work, but I still don't see an incentive to implement it, at least now.

I'd say that if a free transaction gets stuck for over a day (144 blocks), then it is already time to start planning the change.

Why should free transactions get in anyway?
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
At first how would that work? Are they supposed to accumulate transactions and make bitcoin transactions to somewhat reflect the micro-transaction balance at intervals? How do you suppose the compability between them works? You are looking at an ever increasing demand for storage capacity and network bandwidth here. This overhead is at worst O(n!).... with every new chain.
Well for starters we could say the decimals in the coins are not there to allow less than one whole coin transactions, just to allow a lot of granularity in the exact size of one whole coin or greater transactions.

Then for each chain you'd basically do things worth less than one whole coin of that chain on a lower-value chain.

Second: What's the incentive to do it? If you go through the hassle of creating another protocol why tie it to bitcoin? Not only you miss out of the early adopter reward you create other problems in the bitcoin economy by deluding the supply of the transaction market.

Bitcoin provides the world's most difficult proof-of-work. That hashing-power secures ALL the merged-mined coins, not just the "primary" chain, using the same hashing-power. Basically once you are already mining bitcoin anyway, mining any or all of the secondary chains requires no additional hashing-power (or maybe if you mine lots and lots and lots of them might make some slight dent in your mining efficiency).

Basically it allows the existing hashing power to secure more stuff, with each chain of more stuff being separately optional to the miners, so miners too small to handle 150 chains could opt to only mine 75 of them, those that cannot handle that many handle less, the tiniest miners maybe even mining only the primary chain or even only one of the secondary chains.

-MarkM-
Pages:
Jump to: