How about a currency which is pool-proof? - page 2.

steelhouse

hero member

Activity: 717

Merit: 501

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 27, 2011, 05:12:17 PM

Block rewards pay for the cost of running the network. Those servers, GPU, electricity aren't free. That is true of any blockchain.

People being in pools or using a distributed pool or everyone solo mining doesn't change that.

Not sure why you think a distributed pool or solo-mining somehow changes the underlying mechanics of the blockchain. Hint; it doesn't.

If you need 10% inflation to protect the network, then bitcoin is worthless.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Block rewards pay for the cost of running the network. Those servers, GPU, electricity aren't free. That is true of any blockchain.

People being in pools or using a distributed pool or everyone solo mining doesn't change that.

Not sure why you think a distributed pool or solo-mining somehow changes the underlying mechanics of the blockchain. Hint; it doesn't.

steelhouse

hero member

Activity: 717

Merit: 501

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 27, 2011, 07:32:33 AM

Quote from: steelhouse on October 27, 2011, 06:28:13 AM

I think satoshi never really thought or wanted pools. He wanted the client to mine. I think you should mine at 1,000 per block for 2 weeks, then end the mining or at 1 per block, with a 10% sales tax which is destroyed.

First of all mining/hashing can NEVER END or the block chain ends.

If you mean end block rewards, you do realize there isn't sufficient transaction volume to support hashing network right now without block rewards. Current fees are ~1% of block rewards. Thus if all block rewards ended tomorrow network hashing power would fall to 1% of current. It is simply supply and demand. The cost to produce a block would need to be 1% of current cost and that would require 1% the difficulty and thus 1% the hashing power.

That would put global hashing power for bitcoin at ~12GH/s. A trivial task for someone to 51% and double spend.

Satoshi was very smart w/ concept of block rewards. They distribute wealth and at the same time create a subsidy to keep network functioning and secure until such time that transaction volume can support the network without subsidies.

Bock rewards/subsidies are a solution to the dilema of:
a) how do you pay for a large/secure network if transaction volume if low?
b) if network is small/weak how will people trust it enough for transaction volume every grow?

Then I would have to say bitcoin is worthless to retain value and you my as well buy gold. It you are forced to have an inflationary currency, why would anyone want to hold it? Is not bittorrent protected? I think coblee came up with the idea of only having 1 pool and everyone mines from the pool. Thus, if the pool is not controlled by anyone, you won't need the 20%+ inflationary block rewards.

sd

hero member

Activity: 730

Merit: 500

Quote from: coblee on October 27, 2011, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: sd on October 27, 2011, 03:36:41 AM

Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on October 26, 2011, 12:50:16 PM

p2pool is about Bitcoin..bitcoin cannot be fixed obviously.

It's not obvious, nor does it appear to be true.

Pools are a misdesign in a peer to peer system but p2pool does fix the problem quite nicely. Sadly almost no-one is using p2pool.

My ultimate goal for Litecoin is to have p2pool integrated with the client. Each client would act as a node in the p2pool. If you have the internal miner running or if you point miners at your client, you will be mining in the distributed pool and will have litecoins trickling in every few minutes. Wouldn't this fit the definition of pool-proof?

It fits the definition of pool-proof very nicely and would be a great proof of concept. Hopefully p2pool is designed and implemented well enough to allow you to do that.

coblee

donator

Activity: 1654

Merit: 1351

Creator of Litecoin. Cryptocurrency enthusiast.

Quote from: sd on October 27, 2011, 03:36:41 AM

Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on October 26, 2011, 12:50:16 PM

p2pool is about Bitcoin..bitcoin cannot be fixed obviously.

It's not obvious, nor does it appear to be true.

Pools are a misdesign in a peer to peer system but p2pool does fix the problem quite nicely. Sadly almost no-one is using p2pool.

My ultimate goal for Litecoin is to have p2pool integrated with the client. Each client would act as a node in the p2pool. If you have the internal miner running or if you point miners at your client, you will be mining in the distributed pool and will have litecoins trickling in every few minutes. Wouldn't this fit the definition of pool-proof?

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: steelhouse on October 27, 2011, 06:28:13 AM

I think satoshi never really thought or wanted pools. He wanted the client to mine. I think you should mine at 1,000 per block for 2 weeks, then end the mining or at 1 per block, with a 10% sales tax which is destroyed.

First of all mining/hashing can NEVER END or the block chain ends.

If you mean end block rewards, you do realize there isn't sufficient transaction volume to support hashing network right now without block rewards. Current fees are ~1% of block rewards. Thus if all block rewards ended tomorrow network hashing power would fall to 1% of current. It is simply supply and demand. The cost to produce a block would need to be 1% of current cost and that would require 1% the difficulty and thus 1% the hashing power.

That would put global hashing power for bitcoin at ~12GH/s. A trivial task for someone to 51% and double spend.

Satoshi was very smart w/ concept of block rewards. They distribute wealth and at the same time create a subsidy to keep network functioning and secure until such time that transaction volume can support the network without subsidies.

Bock rewards/subsidies are a solution to the dilema of:
a) how do you pay for a large/secure network if transaction volume if low?
b) if network is small/weak how will people trust it enough for transaction volume every grow?

steelhouse

hero member

Activity: 717

Merit: 501

I think satoshi never really thought or wanted pools. He wanted the client to mine. I think you should mine at 1,000 per block for 2 weeks, then end the mining or at 1 per block, with a 10% sales tax which is destroyed.

P4man

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

I dont see the problems with pools. The only issue is the big pools are too big. I fully understand miners want to be in a pool so it doesnt take them 6 months to find a block, what I dont understand is why anyone would want to mine on deepbit.

As for DDoS; most "serious" miners will have failover and they could always revert to mining solo if all the pools where somehow DDoS'd.

So of all the problems facing bitcoin, pools seem to be the least of them. Just convince people to switch to a pool thats big enough to give them reasonably predictable income, but no bigger than that. Its even in their own interest usually, its not like deepbit is cheap.

being

newbie

Activity: 38

Merit: 0

Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on October 26, 2011, 12:47:30 PM

I want a chain, on which i know i can mine myself and knowing no pool is going to take my blocks.

Whaat? o_O Does not compute.

sd

hero member

Activity: 730

Merit: 500

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 26, 2011, 01:09:04 PM

The only risk pools represent is 51% attack and that can be solved by technology like p2pool.

There are other problems with pools. The pool operator could steal coins either by stealth or by stealing the whole lot in one go. Pools are a misdesign that invites DDOS attacks and a resulting rapid loss of hashing power throughout the whole network.

sd

hero member

Activity: 730

Merit: 500

Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on October 26, 2011, 12:50:16 PM

p2pool is about Bitcoin..bitcoin cannot be fixed obviously.

It's not obvious, nor does it appear to be true.

Pools are a misdesign in a peer to peer system but p2pool does fix the problem quite nicely. Sadly almost no-one is using p2pool.

Transisto

donator

Activity: 1731

Merit: 1008

Just, wow!

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1014

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 26, 2011, 01:09:04 PM

How exactly is bitcoin being destroyed by pools?

Aren't the botnets pools? They haven't been a problem yet, but they can be.

Etlase2

hero member

Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Encoin, if programmed, does not need pools. Users are placed in small groups based on a random function. Individual mining isn't allowed because it is unnecessary extra bandwidth and it is harder to foster the competition that the proposal talks about.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on October 26, 2011, 12:47:30 PM

How about pool-proof chains? Sorry but...bitcoin is getting destroyed by pools, so is every other currency.

How exactly is bitcoin being destroyed by pools?

Quote

I want a chain, on which i know i can mine myself and knowing no pool is going to take my blocks.

You do understand that pools don't change your share of hashing power. If you have 0.01% of hashing power you will end up with 0.0% of block rewards. Other people being in pools doesn't change that.

The only risk pools represent is 51% attack and that can be solved by technology like p2pool.

Remember remember the 5th of November

legendary

Activity: 1862

Merit: 1011

Reverse engineer from time to time

p2pool is about Bitcoin..bitcoin cannot be fixed obviously.

johnj

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on October 26, 2011, 12:47:30 PM

We've seen scrypt which is gpu-proof.

How about pool-proof chains? Sorry but...bitcoin is getting destroyed by pools, so is every other currency. I want a chain, on which i know i can mine myself and knowing no pool is going to take my blocks.

Doesn't p2pool solve this?

Remember remember the 5th of November

legendary

Activity: 1862

Merit: 1011

Reverse engineer from time to time

We've seen scrypt which is gpu-proof.

How about pool-proof chains? Sorry but...bitcoin is getting destroyed by pools, so is every other currency. I want a chain, on which i know i can mine myself and knowing no pool is going to take my blocks.

Topic: How about a currency which is pool-proof? - page 2. (Read 2751 times)