Topic: How and When Fiat Will End (Read 2613 times)

If bitcoin goes mainstream it's to be expected that people would prefer bitcoin to fiat. And as more and more people start trading their fiat for bitcoin, fiat currencies would lose value against bitcoin. At a certain point, it would be expected that fiat currencies would also lose value to the goods in general. So, we would see inflation, fiat would lose purchasing power.

But, as stated, this is based on the premises that bitcoin will go mainstream. This is far from assured.

If USA recorded 30% inflation in one month, that would be the end of it.   To have that condition existing longer term wont happen unless nobody was really using it.  It would require a reversal of the current state where the whole globe uses it as a proxy

I think this will all happen slowly, over time evolving and adapting.  There are multiple phases to this evolution, we are currently in development and infrastructure building phase.  It is my belief, I have no facts or evidence to support this, intent is to drive society and assets into the blockchain.  

This will be accomplished by continuously raising btc<>usd ratio.  

I also think states will takeover control of the blockchain through centralization and for "the good of the people"

Scalability non issue.  Many threads about this already.

Tax non issue, moving to consumption tax.  

The reason I became so suspicious of bitcoin is because of number of senators, congressmen, federal reserve representatives, former mint
chairman, "economists" and hedge fund managers coming out in favor of bitcoin and blockchain.  Has been unending stream for last 6 months
or so.  They are all in favor and support bitcoin protocol.   Tells me all I need to know.  

They see bitcoin protocol as SOLUTION to existing problems.  Carrot and Stick.  

The ultimate problem with fiat money is that they don't have any manufacturing cost. Under a gold standard, each dollar was partly backed by gold, which has a manufacturing cost, so money creation is more or less the same as any other type of job

Fiat money worth nothing, and central banks have been using this nothing in exchange for almost everything since 1971. But the collapse of this system require that people first understand this grand scale scam (which is very difficult for human of average IQ), and then have an alternative way to do commerce (now we have bitcoin, but if used at large scale, the scalability will become a problem)

And the central banks will not sit there watching, they will do whatever necessary to prevent such a collapse, like raise the interest rate to 20+% (anyway they use printed money to pay for those interest), use gold/silver/real estate to back their fiat money (they still have large amount of gold reserve), or bribing the congress man to pass many different laws to outlaw the usage of other currencies

From the government point of view, bitcoin can help them to get rid of those debt based fiat, thus become debt free, but they also lose the ability to tax people and regulate the money flow, it is still unknown what kind of position they will take

I guess that in foreseeable future, fiat money will still be used widely, and bitcoin becomes a sponge to suck in extra fiat money supply to reduce the risk of fiat money inflation, and since bitcoin appreciate so fast, it will never be used at large scale at domestic commerce, more likely to become a digital asset and used to store and move wealth between countries

cryptos, I thought you were gone.

 I am signing off now. Yes, it's day's old news. Your sources suck. You suck. Your royal jerk, seriously. Your the worst.  And likely a complete phony.

 So goodnight Ms Fear-Fear-Fear, You fear monger puke.
And no, I don't ever care to converse with such a numb-nutted idiot ever again.

I can find no proof to this statement, rather the contrary:

July 1st 2014: A new currency law FATCA going after Americans with foreign assets to “pay their fair share” May 26th 2014
http://investmentwatchblog.com/july-1st-2014-a-new-currency-law-fatca-going-after-americans-with-foreign-assets-to-pay-their-fair-share/
July 1, 2014: End of U.S. Currency?  May 17th 2014
http://situationbrief.com/july-1-2014-end-of-u-s-currency/
FATCA: New Tax Effective July 1, 2014  May 1st 2014
http://www.activistpost.com/2014/05/fatca-new-tax-effective-july-1-2014.html

As for your last post...I am not even going to bother...oh you deleted it hahahhahaha

Just admit it, you are either drunk or stoned.

Lesson learned there...snag quoted rubbish nonsense posts quick!  hahaha

Anyway you have a very confused blurry vision of what is happening, likely through beer goggles.  

The Fed is not going anywhere even if "Bitcoin is Freedom"  http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2014/05/20/bitcoin-federal-reserve-regulation/

I always like backing up my statements with FACTS and EVIDENCE

cryptos: you calling me delusional for stating to END THE FED.

okay then...

 Your a freeloading parasite, a completely worthless maggot demanding others carry your water by refusing to even pay your share of taxes. May you end up getting what you truly deserve.

 Your a complete phony, just like your hero Obama.

 Best video: George Carlin ~ The American Dream
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q


Bitcoin is Freedom.

You have made my argument for me.  

Now ask yourself why do government officials agree bitcoin is genius?

Gives them more power and control

That is the true genius of implementing bitcoin protocol and blockchain.  It will be Voluntary

Ok you are delusional, you have no idea what is happening.  

Maybe I will write it up sometime so you will understand what I think is really going on and then can discuss it.  
Hopefully in a rational, calm, thoughtful manner without rubbish about Zionism, Israel etc.

goodnight slingshot.  Been fun, other than the slander...

 

OT:

http://dollarcollapse.com/
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
http://rense.com/

 Filter out the nonsense and hogwash, rinse the foolishness. Then the rest will do a young mind like yours wonders. They blow the doors right off your references. Please cryptos, don't take it personally. None of it. Your on the right path, maybe? But if your in search of the real truths your not going to like what you find out concerning many topics your obviously not yet privy to the real facts.


Now, Back On Topic:

Re: How and When Fiat Will End


Good night  cryptos

Well that is news to me, you have any proof?


I was going to write something like "police state worshiping militaristic fascist" but decided not to.  This from your obvious belief we should worship the IRS who steal from us and want to control our money, speech according to Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, in order to kill and imprison people at whim,  "Bitcoin not Bombs"


Something we agree on.  States love bitcoin and the blockchain.

I don't why you go off on these wacky tangents about Zionism, Israel and the rest.  

Other than that this is somewhat entertaining.

I'm not in constant state of fear or any of this other nonsense.  I will have to re-read what written as no idea how got that
impression other than I tend to just write bluntly.  I am not a "conspiracy theorist." I look for logic, reasoning and facts to explain
what is happening and why.  

So far you are a fascist and I am a pacifist.  

You don't believe privacy is a fundamental human right, which includes speech=money.

You believe should continue to pay taxes to propagate the "Corporate Fascist Police State" as you call it,
which means supporting the status quo.  So either you are confused, a dreamer, or a fudder.

If anyone works for the NSA here it is you.

 

Re: How and When Fiat Will End

     It will end in the coming decades and die because it's a vastly inferior form of currency that has enslaved the entire world.

    No matter what, debt based or even debt-free, all government or bankster fiat lends itself toward the frail acts of human weaknesses.

    Acts such as fraud, excessive greed, and plunder, not to mention temptation of corruption due to it being far too centralized.

    Fiat is a hopeless abstract.

    Fiat is a complete act of futility.

    Fiat is a  hopeless joke to borrow a phrase from one of the wealthiest jerks to ever live on this earth and whom recently attempted in vain
    to defame Bitcoin in public.

    Fiat is the real joke.
    And it's a real bad joke handed down for centuries, and has for too long enslaved all of us in this world to Bankster scum and their ilk.

    Even Government Officials agree, fiat sucks. Bitcoin Rocks! Everyone loves Bitcoin!


Re: How and When Fiat Will End

     It will end in the coming decades just as soon as governments try everything in their power to do everything to save their centralized
     control, then finally do the correct thing in the end.

    First END THE FED. Then eventually fiat will end too. But first step is END THE FED. Repeat after me: Soon the Fed is dead!


Bitcoin is Genius.

I thought you were done?

Eliminating cash is part of the point, see Rogoff.

Here are a couple of bloggers who have put thought and research into snowden as well as written numerous posts

Rancid Honeytrap
http://ohtarzie.wordpress.com/?s=snowden
Willyloman
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/?s=snowden
Infowars.com - Snowden is a National Security State Asset
http://www.infowars.com/snowden-is-a-national-security-state-asset/
Here come the Edward Snowden truthers - Salon.com
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/19/here_come_the_edward_snowden_truthers/

I am sure you wont read everything, or even anything at all nor look for other skeptics, but the circumstances and
what has been revealed stink.  Why no info on banks?  Why no info on 9/11?  Why no info on insider trading and market rigging?
Why wait a year to reveal names of targeted Americans? Its a timed orchestrated PR campaign

Only being told what state wants us to know and when.

"Most transparent administration in history" "'You can't change Washington from the inside" - Barack Obama

cryptos - "Look at progression of events.  Snowden sent on mission to tell US citizens and world they have no social privacy.  "Mission accomplished," his words.  Next target? Financial privacy".


 OMG: There hasn't been and never was any financial privacy except cash transactions. What is this nonsense. There are paper or digital trails that never end back to the source of all financial transactions. Always have been.

 There is no progression in what you stated. "Next target? Financial privacy"."
Nonsense. Never has been any financial privacy. We're all open books for any police or government to review.

 Seek help. You need a really good  therapist.

 "...Snowden on a mission" Are you serious? That's insane!

Your batshit crazy.

Now you have revealed your true colors, as a fascist.  You do not believe in every human beings fundamental human right to privacy.  

Dilma Rousseff - President of Brazil
"Without the right of privacy, there is no real freedom of speech or freedom of opinion, and so there is no actual democracy"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/brazils-president-condemns-nsa-spying/2013/09/24/fe1f78ee-2525-11e3-b75d-5b7f66349852_story.html

Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission
Money is free speech


How and when fiat will end? BTC will hasten its demise and that is its intent, along with other factors like FACTA on July 1st 2014.
When? I have no idea.  I already guessed 2030-2040.

 

Back on Topic:

    
Re: How and When Fiat Will End

 You should really learn English. And learn to correctly state facts and separate the nonsense.

 "That is hyper deflation of USD vs BTC".

wrong.

 That's  hyper deflation of bitcoins in Fed dollars.

 USD is the ticker symbol in the forex for Federal reserve notes (aka dollars, aka usd).

 But your writing it in a form that refers to the USD hyper delating against Bitcoin, like that is possible. NOT.


 Then you spin this bullshit reply. Enough. I ripped you, re-ripped you, and I now spit you out.

 Take that darkcrap coin shit with you. We don't come there and span your section. How dare you span this
section with your drivel. Go back and read your nonsense. See how it comes across. If that doesn't make
sense nothing will. I wager all in nothing I can say will fix your problems. Your incurable.

 I am done with your bullshit.
 

 So which is it: A tax evader, illegal drugs, or maybe some other illegal activity?

 No governments are going to sit by and allow such a thing since they would adversely effect their ability to collect tax revenues.

 What? Are you  maybe suffering from narcissism and grand delusions?

 The future isn't going to be kind to parasites demanding others carry their water for them while they get a temporary free ride off the labor of others. Maybe 2 to 10 years hard labor for instance. Just for starters. O wait, that already is the federal tax law if you cheat the government out of $2000 or more dollars in any one year, plus huge fines too. Oops. Better not get caught or make any mistakes. Oops, you already did. Oops.

 Your pipe-dreams are for losers and those begging to lose everything a decade down the road when they least expect it and the revenuers come busting through their doors to take it all, everything you own, and toss into the next new federal prison call center for maybe I don't know, hum...maybe Micosoft, lol. Not to mention the fines and penalties one will be forced to pay until their dead and buried. It's not worth it kiddies. It's stupid. Pay tax, invest wisely, retire in your 50's. OR be seriously stupid. Your choice.

 And for those that think the rules and laws shouldn't apply to themselves. It's called part of being a psychopath. Grow up.

 This discussion is closed.


Bitcoin is Freedom.

I can no longer tell if this is a joke, you are drunk, or just rambling rubbish.

You are not disagreeing with anything Ive written, you are just spewing nonsense.

Bitcoins went from $13 to $1200 in 2013.  That is hyper deflation of USD vs BTC as a currency.

I am saying the USD debt based moneytary system is dead and has to be replaced...enter bitcoin.

So again, I can't tell if this is a joke, you are drunk, or just rambling.

 This person named cryptos is full of it.

 Yea Mr. Bankster (cryptos) - Best flee to Israel fast so they don't drag you off too prison like Maddoff. Israel will never give u up to extradition back to here where your sure to be Maddoff's bitch in prison.

 But realize this Zionist takeover of the United States of Israel has completely failed. Soon we're kicking you banksters all to prison, and the rest of your evil kind to prison as well. You should have not messed with us. Now it's our turn.

 O, and while you spout off such nonsense and chat with yourself here;

 This nonsense about: dollars "hyper deflate relative to BTC"

 How exactly does that work?
Never before has any fiat currency hyper deflated in history.

...

 In other words I can't figure out any endgame that would be reasonable reasonable: "hyper deflate relative to BTC".  

 How would that be even remotely possible?

 Who re-capitalizes all the banks that depositors that are counting on for 9+ trillion in deposits?
 Who continues to pay for S.S. and Medicare/Medicaid and the VA added up to over ten trillion over the next decade alone?
 Who continues to run banking while all the banksters flee for their very lives while knowing their soon going to prison? Their employees.
 Who could keep running the government if suddenly it didn't have the money to run itself due to this "hyper deflate relative to BTC".  

 Hyper deflate the dollar versus BTC?

 They can't afford to do such a thing?

 It would bust every bank that is in far too much in debt  leveraged to the hilt all over again, not to mention crush ever debtor since suddenly a car and home would cost much less and no one could ever be paid much again due to  "hyper deflate relative to BTC".

 Much less the world could no longer afford any food exports from the USOI.


 Give it a rest.

 The Dollar and the Petrodollar is dying.

 The FED is soon dead.

 The Zionist Occupied USA is dying too. And for a short while, enjoy your freedom, then it's next to Maddoff for all of you criminals, while we claw back all the stolen loot.

 A person named cryptos is full of shit and spreading nothing but bankster bullshit. Best get in that plane and flee to Israel before those conservative FBI agents counting on their pensions and retiree's health care coverage drag you off to prison while your crying and screaming for your mommy!

cryptos:
 "It is brilliant social engineering mechanism, greed and fear, push and pull.  I think, speculating, that it is possible that
BTC is the enginnering tool intended to make people lose confidence in the USD".

 
 Do what? O, your simple minded. Never mind.


 The Fed's evil debt-based Fiat currency named Federal Reserve Notes (dollars) is soon dead, dead, dead. And so is the FED. Hey, at least the wonderful but foolish Dr. Ron Paul gets almost everything correct. After all, no one is perfect, not even Dr. Paul. But at least he seems real, unlike this phony piece of shit called of all things cryptos. What? Your so dimwitted you couldn't even think of a decent screen name?
O wait, simple minded. Pardon me son.

 As for the USDA buying assult weapons: Well what do you think an out of control government does with a blank checkbook and a complicit FED that loans them all the monies they request by issuing ever more bonds?

 All this talk of "tapering" from the FED is pure jawboning. Wait, you don't likely understand that term. Okay, it's bullshit. As in misdirection. Smoke and mirrors. In other words during the last several months the USA Inc. hasn't needed to borrow as much as before due to minor cuts in spending across the board. So the USA didn't need to borrow as much. So the FED which is the borrower of last resort since no one else besides other central banks are seriously stupid enough to purchase US Govt Bonds didn't need to loan the USA as much, hence the term taper and all it's nonsense. There is no tapering. Rates are not rising. They can't allow interest rates to rise or it will swiftly crush the dollar and the governments ability to even pay the interest, let alone it's other expenses.

 The dollar is dying. So is the Yen, The Euro, the Yuan, CAD, AUD, and even the CHF (Swiss franc) isn't in good shape anymore. The entire 1st world is in a gigantic debt bubble. And here this clown spins it like it's a Bitcoin conspericy against the dollar. Bullshit. They destroyed themselves and their currencies. Then Bitcoin came along thanks to Satoshi and is helping some flee to it's safety. Period. End of story.

 Bitcoin is a safe haven. It's Digital Gold 2.0  - there is no social engineering. Only government shills and banksters, plus clowns spreading bullshit and nonsense. Your one of them.

 As a lust once said: Your either with us, or your on the wrong side of history and about to be washed out with the ever rising tide of shit that those like yourself caused.

 



Bitcoin is The Future.

This post I mostly agree with.  However the bitcoin protocol is not anonymous nor was it ever intended to be, as to "Monetary Freedom" that is debatable.  Will be used as a global asset tracking tool.  Read what the IMF intends to do and protocol will enable that.  Will also allow switch to consumption tax.

As to your 2nd post...You sound like a FUD spreading banker or Bitcoin dreamer.  "Bitcoin is freedom" that is the propaganda bankers and the state want us to believe as everyone gets sucked into the blockchain.  All anonymity will be gone once paper currency is eliminated.  

That is not to say DRK, Monero, X11 or whatever comes after is not true Monetary Freedom, but Bitcoin protocol as currently exists is not.  It will enable financial slavery as you will have no anonymity or privacy in your affairs.

Look at progression of events.  Snowden sent on mission to tell US citizens and world they have no social privacy.  "Mission accomplished," his words.  Next target? Financial privacy.  
"New Massive Federal Database to Hold Financial Information on Hundreds of Millions of Americans"
http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/05/30/new-massive-federal-database-to-hold-financial-information-on-hundreds-of-millions-of-americans/

States are not about to relinquish power, they are going to seize more via existing blockchain.  Yes it will bring about good things, no question and the future looks bright after get through "The United States of SWAT" http://www.nationalreview.com/article/376053/united-states-swat-john-fund .  

But don't deceive yourself or others about real intent.  Bitcoin is not Jesus.  It is a tax, asset tracking and forfeiture tool in its current form that will eliminate any and all financial privacy.  Linking ID to your wallets is coming.  

2 Billion Jobs to Disappear by 2030
http://www.futuristspeaker.com/2012/02/2-billion-jobs-to-disappear-by-2030/
Bill Gates: People Don't Realize How Many Jobs Will Soon Be Replaced By Software Bots
http://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-bots-are-taking-away-jobs-2014-3
Report Suggests Nearly Half of U.S. Jobs Are Vulnerable to Computerization
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/519241/report-suggests-nearly-half-of-us-jobs-are-vulnerable-to-computerization/
University of Oxford study: 50% of jobs could disappear in next 20 years
http://laptopmillionaire.tv/blog/university-of-oxford-study-50-of-jobs-could-disappear-in-next-20-years/?utm_source=rss
Half Of All Jobs Today Will Disappear By 2030
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/09/25/predictions-workplace/

 Okay Mr. Bankster or who ever you are we understand your threatened and your career is going the same route as Travel Agents had their own careers go when the internet revolutionized the travel agency business. Get over it. Move on. And don't take other peoples word on anything. Always verify. Your taking some at face value without facts in evidence. Others you discount without even reflection on the facts in evidence.

 As for your comment:

  "Bitcoin is definitely not freedom.  The existing blockchain is another form of slavery, an open asset tracking and forfeiture tool, the true goal."

 ...what nonsense. WHAT HOGWASH. The blockchain is a public ledger. And a semi anonymous one that can easily be made much more anonymous through various means. As for Bitcoin being Slavery...what silly nonsense.

 As for Libertarians, their already proven to be jack-asses that demand others carry their water while their parasitical tendencies represent and reflect how other wealthy elite and banksters view the rest of us 'little people'. Screw them. Libertarians are just as flawed as democrats and republicans. Or should I say liberals and conservatives. Hell real conservatives are a dying/dead breed. Very few true conservatives are even still breathing. Neo-cons phonies wiped them out, along with the phony liberals and phony libertarians. Swine that cares to mix politics or religion, or anything else, into a monetary topic are to be frowned upon.

 Ron Paul - "deregulation and privatization are the only solutions" after the 2008 election. He finally took off his mask. I dropped him right then and there for the fool he surely is. It doesn't matter if he does get everything else correct (he mostly seem to get everything else correct) he failed on those two most important points and proved right there he is merely yet another billionaire fascist wet-dream for them, and not for anyone else but other elites like himself. Dr. Paul is merely the consummate politician telling people exactly what they want to hear. Yet then just as always right on cue he rolls over like a cowardly little puppy and endorses who for president at the last moment. All these that think they know Dr. Paul? They don't. Just like they didn't know who the real Tea Party was or who hijacked it (The Koche brothers as in Billionaires). Those are the fascists in love with Dr. Paul. But not any libertarian worthy of being called a decent person. As for Dr. Pauls son: well sometimes the apple does fall far from the tree...

 
 Monetary topics are to rise or fall on their own merit. Fact is states and countries will always fail at fiat issues. Always have, always will. If 0ne doesn't understand why then one hasn't done their research, at all, in the least bit.

Next:

 No one termed Satoshi Nakamoto would dare do anything to destroy the very value that he/she/they created by selling/dumping far too much bitcoin onto the marketplace at any point in time, not ever. In fact I would suggest quite the opposite if anything. But certainly not destroy the genius work of their own skills and labor. Why would any sane person destroy their own savings by liquidating it too quickly to merely crash it's value? That's insane. Only if Bitcoin grew so corrupt that it is no longer representing what Satoshi intended would any rational actor ever even consider such a thing. And merely more mining centralization and more mainstream adoption and commercializing was the exact thing Satoshi had to know would eventually occur. It's just mind boggling how some come on here and state such ill founded fear based drivel and nonsense.

 Smart people act rationally. Your suggesting the diabolic opposite. Wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a black op nsa effort that is Satoshi either. The end results are what matters. No more debt, and decentralization of command and control so that money as we know it finally becomes a strong store of value, and not an ever inflated away weak store of value. That scares some. It should. Because they too finally will have to much better behave to attract capital investments.

 As for you Mr. Bankster, or whatever it is you are, your comment on Bitcoin not being Freedom. That's so over the top and such nonsense it makes me laugh and laugh. Yet wonder how dumb, gullible, naive, and foolish are people like you?

 No, I don't belong to any political party. Never have. Never will. I am also far older and more stupid, yet much wiser than most here.

 To listen to what you just wrote just makes me laugh...

 But yes, the parasites in American Health Care that love to bankrupt widows and orphans must be held to full account. After all it's the worst health care in the 1st world today. In fact we rank just below Cuba when it comes to our health care today, which of course the US health care we do receive is also the most expensive in the world, and by huge margins. And what? Your answer is to give the States ever more power and control over money too? Are you serious? Are you even thinking? Or just spouting off without a second thought?

 No, deregulating the financial industry didn't work. It failed. check.
Privatizing the top 300+ non-profit hositals in the USA failed. check.

 I can give a very long list of failures when it comes to deregulation and privatization for that matter. Just look at your electric bill or gas bill for starters. Get over it. All of you. You are being conned. Played. Suckered. Bamboozled. The very same ones that trusted in Mt.Gox with much of their savings are very likely the same ones being conned about much more.

 But at least this Bankster or whatever, at least he reads. Hey, that's a great start. But don't take fear, fear, fear as fact. We have nothing to fear. All these fear based articles are usually nonsense. Sure the monetary world is a train wreak. Okay. It crashes. We fix it. We go forward. It's not all going up in smoke. We don't "collapse" and never come back. It's not the end of the world. But we may all be poorer for it. There are no boogy men. No terrorists. Your odds are far higher of being hit by lightening than ever being scratched by a terrorist. It's all nonsense. Sensationalism.

 Fact: Doctors and Nurses plus Pharmacuticals are the number one cause of death in America today. Same for much of the world. They make far too many mistakes and errors. And the drugs peddled kill huge numbers, and harm millions more every year. Between 200,000 to 600,000 or more each year die because of this group. Toss in governments who launch horrible acts of war that mainly kills and harms innocent people and here you come with what? And dare to say what? I will rip you to no end...

 By 2030 half of the population will NOT be unemployed. Another nonsense statement that some internet legend concocted in their own mind so it must be truth. WRONG. That wont occur. Can't. If it did then the rest will surely have to support those unemployed. Already almost half are unemployed or grossly underemployed today. And 20% of all households supposedly have no one with any job at all. Those are alarming facts. Things are not good. But they will eventually be solved long before 2030. Things wont stay together if things drag out much longer. States and regions will demand the breakup of this country if things stay so out of control. People will eventually demand better. But so far most are brainwashed and too dim to understand facts from fictions.

 Robots and automation to replace humans: bullshit. Pure hogwash. Yes, computers and the internet greatly increased efficiencies for all of us. Net result: Millions of jobs lost. And millions of new jobs created.

 Today we need Trillions spent in public works and in our decaying infrastructure. Like it or not that will get done in the next 20 years, and like it or not we will spend ten's of trillions doing that. And tens of millions will be employed doing such tasks. All these fear fear fear articles are bullshit. Same for those that come here and repeat this crap non stop.

The Debts will and must be restructured and/or written off. Solutions will be had. Or revolutions will be the result. The USA government is digging in. But their troops will not obey orders against their own peoples, their families, relatives, friends and neighbors. In fact it will end up being the military that brings about the arrest and prosecution of the legislative branch if they don't swiftly fall into better favor with most. That much is painfully apparent.

 The criminals in the banks and on wall street, plus in the board rooms and elsewhere will be brought to justice sooner, or later. The statute of limitations for felony fraud isn't kind, at all. Their ill gotten gains are ours (the public's). These same types think their superior. Some think their our masters. I assure you their not my superior nor my master, although they may be your employer.

 As for all the problems you see and foresee due to someone else bringing them to your attention: Yes, No. Maybe. You appear to live a cowards life. One of fear and emotion. STop it already. Have no fear. Refuse to be bullied or cower. Yell at me if it makes you feel any better but realize that many predict many terrible things going forward throughout the history of mankind. Yet it only keeps getting better and better every 50 to 100 years throughout time. And the end of time never arrives either. For thousands of years many have said and claimed it's "the end days". It's all nonsense instead.

 Either a person is good and decent, or their rotten and no good. No in between. No grey area. Pure genius invented Bitcoin for many wonderful reasons. Here we have someone else come along and say what? Your nuts!


Bitcoin is Freedom.

Re: How and When Fiat Will End
====================

Short version:
----------------

Sadly it wont end until fiat is ruined again, and again at the very least. And not for at least several decades from today if things continue as they are presently. So 20 to 80 years from today is the answer. Best guess 55 years. But governments wont surrender to them without trying to keep competing with their own fiat issues. Much less they need time to work out fiat-currency-debt restructuring and forgiveness.

 In short: Debt-Free Decentralized Monetary cryptocurrencies and what they offer future generations over the longest terms are nothing short of revolutionary on a scale never before seen in mankind's history.

 This Decentralized Cryptocurrency Revolution is far bigger than the entire Internet. It's bigger than modern electricity in what it will do for every person's prosperity on this earth over their life span's going forward, especially the younger generations alive today. It's that huge, that sustaining, that far reaching. That ever lasting.

 Decentralization wont be confined to merely monetary issues. Instead a general decentralization of many things will ensue going forward. That will greatly defuse far too much centralized command and control and make the world much better off in return.

 Centuries from now, with all those gains compounded and thus added together people will be able to look back and see in wonderment how far they arrived at that point in time in the distant future, where ever in the universe they are, if only they never forget their own ancestors history and their many mistakes.

 Debt-based-fiat currency is evil. It must be outlawed forever as soon as governments finally understand this. Why? This year the USA alone will spend half a Trillion dollars on just their interest payments and that's at record, all time low interest rates.

 So when I say how huge the improvement over debt-based-fiat any debt-free currency is I am not in the least big exaggerating. It's all an enormous improvement.

 Then toss in Decentralization of Secure Cryptocurrency and suddenly the corruptions and temptations of too much centralized command and control is fully neutralized and held permanently in check if brought forward and maintained properly. All thanks to the real 'best & brightest'.

 Lastly add in generalized decentralization of many other things that lean themselves much better off with decentralization rather than with too much centralized command and control and then suddenly we have a much better new world to hand off to the future.

 There is no better gift than that for future generations. This gives them all the tools they need to build much better lives than we all ever had going back several decades from today. The world is a mess today, but soon it will get much better one way or another.

 The future is going to be awe inspiring in 35 to 70 years and most of those under 40 years of age today will still be alive to enjoy it.


Bitcoin is Pure Genius.

Bitcoin is Monetary Freedom.

Absolutely correct and succinctly stated.

However I am not convinced about the hyper-inflation argument, rather I think fiat will hyper deflate relative to BTC and
perhaps a few other alt coins.  This is what will drive the masses in crypto-currencies and the blockchain voluntarily. 

It is brilliant social engineering mechanism, greed and fear, push and pull.  I think, speculating, that it is possible that
BTC is the enginnering tool intended to make people lose confidence in the USD.  This will be done by driving BTC to
10k or over next couple of years, ie sometime in 2016.  That is why, IMO, the USDA is buying submachine guns
http://reason.com/blog/2014/05/16/why-the-hell-is-the-department-of-agricu as well as the fed arming
every single agency to the teeth and DHS buying millions of rounds of hollow point bullets etc.

Per definition, as a standard of value, bitcoin will always have to be measured taking in account the goods it can buy.

If fiat ever ends in a hyper-inflation, we would measure the value of bitcoin in gold, oil and all other things we could buy with bitcoin: more or less, everything, in a situation like that.

But those timing predictions are just numbers tossed out.

I think BTC is a bait and switch.  Get everyone into "e-money" as Milton Friedman called it in 1999 and at some point, possibly,
Satoshi will release his coins to flood the market or will be done some other way.  Perhaps "BTC enables terrorism and child porn" so
use our new coin, I don't know how this will be done.  However I do not think TPTB will let mircea popescu become a trillionaire.

So at some point they will take control and drive this in exactly the direction they intended all along.  Andreas
has spoken about this also.  Everyone will have to make a choice, their way or go own way ie DRK, XC, MRO or whatever, which will
likely be illegal to use or accepted for goods and services by that point IMO.  

BTC is fiat and this as been argued well by Anonymint in his thread: Coinbase + Bitpay is enough to make Bitcoin a fiat
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-adoption-slowing-coinbase-bitpay-is-enough-to-make-bitcoin-a-fiat-557732

There may be a limit of 21million BTC today, but with all these interchangeable alt coins, some of which you can
exchange directly with USD like LTC, Doge, PPC, NMC and FTC , there really is no limit to number of coins.  It is an ever
inflating pool that dilutes BTC and USD constantly as flows into these other alt coins.  

"the same way copper dilutes and inflate gold"
You can exchange your gold for copper or use your copper to exchange for gold. As opposed to only being able to use or possess gold so yes exactly.

There is very interesting paper from Kenneth Rogoff recently, described here:
"Rogoff Examines the Upsides of a Currency-Free Economy"
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/05/21/rogoff-examines-the-upsides-of-a-currency-free-econom/

Unfortunately the pdf is no longer free to download.  The timing of this is very curious and given who wrote it, worth paying
attention to. He is essentially arguing for "a more proactive strategy for phasing out the use of paper currency."
Discussed here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/2014-05-29-financial-times-kenneth-rogoff-time-to-phase-out-paper-money-630538 and here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/2014-05-21-harvard-economics-professor-makes-the-case-for-bitcoin-619865

"DeathandTaxes" writes: "A digital currency known as the dollar already is the norm" the USD is still debt based and does not have
the blockchain.  


Bitcoin is definitely not freedom.  The existing blockchain is another form of slavery, an open asset tracking and forfeiture tool, the true goal.  Marc Andreessen said just last month that within two years libertarians are going to hate bitcoin...once they realize what it really is.

States need to replace debt based fiat system with something else and blockchain the most visible and viable candidate.
By 2030 half of the population will be unemployed due to automation.  Runaway medical costs, long term debt and liabilities of 200 trillion according to Laurence Kotlikoff http://usawatchdog.com/america-in-worse-fiscal-shape-than-detroit-professor-laurence-kotlikoff/, trillions of derivatives, the list goes on and on.

It is pretty clear in my mind where this is all going and why.

This whole process could take until 2030~2040, so existing fiat debt based currency and monetary system not going anywhere any time soon...though Jim Rickards recently said this could all happen faster than any of us think...

To clarify things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency

  "Fiat money is money which derives its value from government regulation or law. It differs from commodity money, which is based on a good, often a precious metal such gold or silver, which has uses other than as a medium of exchange. The term derives from the Latin fiat ("let it be done", "it shall be").[1]

The first use of fiat money has been recorded in China around 1000 CE. Since then, it has been used intermittently by various countries, concurrently with commodity currencies."

and

 "Fiat money has been defined variously as:

    Any money declared by a government to be legal tender.[2]
    State-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.[3]
    Intrinsically valueless money used as money because of government decree.[4]

While gold- or silver-backed representative money entails the legal requirement that the bank of issue redeem it in fixed weights of gold or silver, fiat money's value is unrelated to the value of any physical quantity. Even a coin containing valuable metal may be considered fiat currency if its face value is defined by law as different from its market value as metal.[5]"


My 0.0000 0002 Dorian's:
================
 In any estimation these are good definitions of fiat and the meaning of the Latin term fiat ("let it be done", "it shall be").

 Although Bitcoin has some of the qualities as fiat it isn't the adopted currency of any government today. Sure it may become that some day, but not likely any time in the foreseeable future. I will let another reply of mine touch on that thought.

 Bitcoin isn't exactly fiat in the sense any of us ever thought of fiat before. Bitcoin re-defines what money can be. It crossed borders of what is money and what is a commodity.

Bitcoin is Freedom.
 

Exactly. You cannot trust people to regulate it.

the same way copper dilutes and inflate gold


not without a majority vote, which will never happen

fiat will end when it hyper inflates and people are forced to use alternatives like ammo, gas, gold, silver, bread, or bitcoin

Firstly, that is not a key defining attribute of fiat money, and secondly Bitcoin only has a limit artificially imposed by those that regulate it.  Exactly as any national fiat currency is limited by the government/laws/regulation (which is the essence of fiat money).  At some point in the future, however unlikely it may seem today, Bitcoin base may be extended.   Need a new word or term.

This is not true, fiat can be produced without limit, bitcoins has limit.

A paper currency system contains the seeds of its own destruction. The temptation for the monopolist money producer to increase the money supply is almost irresistible. In such a system with a constantly increasing money supply and, as a consequence, constantly increasing prices, it does not make much sense to save in cash to purchase assets later. A better strategy, given this senario, is to go into debt to purchase assets and pay back the debts later with a devalued currency. Moreover, it makes sense to purchase assets that can later be pledged as collateral to obtain further bank loans. A paper money system leads to excessive debt.

The end of fiat?  Bitcoin will cause this?  I always find this type thread and the views expressed quite funny, because Bitcoin is fiat money.  Its not based on real reserves or intrinsic physical commodity, its value is derived from confidence in law (albeit maths) and supply/demand.  That fits the definition of fiat money.

This can be true at some point of the global economy, fiat is going to an end, there will be the time when it just plummets with so much debt and btc will be one of the mediums to save money.

Probably ment planned the banksters so they can implyment a gobal currency and have complete control over it.  IMO they will try the pitch look what the gov did with your monetary system you need us to handle it..  People are really stupid and won't figure out they have been handling it since 1913.  Most people still think money is backed by gold..  it's quite pathetic.

I learn more from your posts then I did in my college economics class 

What I don't understand is why we are valuing, in 2016 if BTC crushes USD or world currency in general, BTC at the dollar value. At that point BTC would be valued at BTC, where 1 BTC = 1 BTC.

Also keeping this in mind, if BTC becomes the world's currency would the market cap not be 241tr (or closer to this than the latter) instead of 50tr? At that point, BTC would be (300k*241/50) roughly 1.446$m/BTC by your calculations. No?

How exactly will they "crush" bit coin? The genie is all ready out of the bottle. One country might make it really difficult to use it but there is no way to eradicate it.

Need excuse to end debt based fiat currency monetary system.  BTC designed to do exactly that.  

Intent is to end existing and bring in new.  Made abundantly clear by insider shill Jim Rickards in his latest book and tour.
Just have to listen to a lot of his interviews.  He is a proven shill for banker and insider establishment.  
http://www.hangthebankers.com/establishment-shill-jim-rickards-covers-for-the-bankers-911-insider-trading-crimes/

Basically means that when he speaks is speaking for establishment.

Also recent actions of US gov for example "Operation Choke Point”

Banks to payday lenders: Quit the business or we’ll close your account.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/banks-to-payday-lenders-quit-the-business-or-well-close-your-account/2014/04/11/afd34976-c0c6-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_story.html

Could go on and on.  BTC is weapon that Jim Rickards warns about and calls "financial cyber terrorism"
However, in my view this is a ploy and distraction.  It is intentional to have a non-entity to blame.  

edit: He also says will be left with basket of crypto-currencies and I have no idea how long this will all take

All the pieces fit.  I do not think however, that BTC will survive, it will be crushed.  It is trojan horse to bring in real intent which is not clear to me as yet.  But blockchain asset tracking and forfeiture technology is here to stay.  That is true intent, that and negative interest rates, switching to a consumption tax, everything about blockchain is a governments dream world with NSA to monitor it.

"This means a price between 30'000 USD and 300'000 USD per bitcoin.
(3): This will probably occur at some point between October 2015 and September 2016."

Read your post too fast...this i do not think is accurate, rpietila is overly optimistic and extremely btc wealthy so take anything he says with a bucket of salt.  I think may get to 10k per btc in 2016, for end of 2014 and 2015 I have no idea nor do I care.  BTC is being constantly diluted and inflated via alt coins.  

You are probably right that bitcoin will be blamed when many people's savings are wiped out. That worries me as well. But what do you mean by "intentional"?

Sounds pretty accurate and I think all intentional...Need an enemy to blame and BTC will be it.

Intro
Reasonable economists like Peter Schiff and many others have for a long time foreseen a currency collapse in the USD and other currencies but they have not been succesful at predicting a timing for this possible future event. I now believe that I know how and when this will materialize and I wish to present my case in this thread. There are some formulas in this thread. If you are not comfortable with them, just skip them. The main point that they make is that bitcoin rises in price when more goods are being traded in bitcoins.

Monetary Theory
The classical velocity equation for money states that the value of a currency is given by

PQ = MV, where P is inversely proportional to the value of a currency -- the price level. Q is the value of goods being traded in that currency within a given amount of time, M is the number of currency units. V is the average velocity for the currency, i.e., how many times it changes hands within the same time interval that defines Q.

In another thread here I show that the value of any currency can be expressed as val=Q/(M*V). This means that the market cap of a currency is val*M = Q/V.

Hyperinflation of USD and State Currencies
The long-term trend of a rising bitcoin value is due to an increased amount of goods and services being traded in bitcoins. But this also have an inverse impact on the dollar. When goods are traded in bitcoins, they are no longer traded in dollars and this reduces the demand for dollars which lowers the price. This effect has not yet been felt for the dollar since bitcoin is still such a small currency (market caps is thousands of times less than USD). But if, and I am quite certain it will, bitcoin continues to experience more good and services being traded then this is just a matter of time.

This leads me to my first conclusion: Bitcoin will be the catalyst for the collapse of the USD. I should add that the world will be better for it although it will be a heavy storm which will destroy the savings of many and might have adverse political consequences. See this thread for more on that: Bitcoin's Dystopian Future, by dacoinminster


When will this occur?
The second question is timing: When will bitcoin hyperinflate the world's fiat currencies?

My thesis is that this will occur when bitcoin's market cap becomes so large that people will start to see the dollar fall because of it and the debasement of the dollar exceeds that of regular price level rises which is around 2 % (some claim that it is higher, though). But since Bitcoins rise in value is exponential, the exact ratio at which this will happen is less important. Here, I simply assume that fiat will hyperinflate when bitcoin reaches a market cap of between 1 and 10 % of all the world's fiat currencies. I use the Forum user rpietila's economic analysis presented here to support the claim of exponential rise and to calculate future values of bitcoin.

It is easier to know M in bitcoin than it is in USD but I will use the M2 supplied by the Federal Reserve which is 11215bn USD or 11.2tr USD. If someone has a better measure, I am happy to fix this later. The US share of world GDP is 22.3 according to the UN (source).

So assuming that the rest of the world has a monetary system comparable to that of the US, I estimate that the world M2 converted into USD is 11.2tr USD/0.223 = 50.20tr USD. Remember that it is mainly the order of magnitude that I am trying to calculate here. The exact numbers are interesting but irrelevant for the core of my argument.

So I predict that my scenario will happen when (or if) bitcoin reaches a market cap of between 500bn USD and 5'000 USD which is approximately 67 to 667 times the current value. According to the forum user rpietila's calculations, the Bitcoin price ten doubles every 325 days (see the formula in the top link in his thread that I linked to above. This means that Bitcoin will increase in value by a factor of 67 within 518 days which is Friday, 30 October 2015. Bitcoin will increase by a factor of 667 times within 844 days which is Tuesday, 20 September 2016.

Conclusion
I therefore predict
(1): Bitcoin will catalyse the collapse of world fiat currencies.
(2): Fiat currencies will hyperinflate when Bitcoin reaches a market cap of between 500bn USD and 5'000bn USD. This means a price between 30'000 USD and 300'000 USD per bitcoin.
(3): This will probably occur at some point between October 2015 and September 2016.

I think (1) and (2) are fairly certain but of course many unexpected things can happen. (3) is entirely dependent on the rate of the exponential rise and whether bitcoins rise in value i exponential at all. I believe it is but the timing might be adjusted as the exponential rates change.