How can bitcoin be used in shops, if payments take so long to process?

RealBitcoin

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Quote from: dHe_zHiq on June 20, 2015, 06:55:18 PM

Quote from: Rmcdermott927 on June 20, 2015, 05:51:41 PM

Quote from: dogecoinshop on June 14, 2015, 04:16:24 PM

Quote from: RealBitcoin on June 14, 2015, 04:06:03 PM

A payment takes 10 min to process. In what store can you buy something under 10 minute really?

Sometimes you have to wait 15 min at the tilt because the employee is a moron, if you could do that in 10 min i`d be very happy.

You just buy the stuff quick, pay for it, then put the bought stuff in a safe storage inside the magazine, and go looking at the other products until you wait for verification. Then after the verification is done, pickup your bought goods and leave.

It would change shopping habits, but whatever.

No ,that would make people leave..Really once blockchain see's the transaction you are good .i have stood their and tried to double spend and never succeeded(Testing) So , if you really want bitcoin to be used by the masses . Maybe try going to a real store and spending some ?

The problem with that theory arises when someone "forgets" to attach a fee to the tx. Try sending a no fee tx these days. With the current tx volume on the network, it is damn near impossible to send a tx without fee. It will get returned to sender within a day or so.

transactions without fee fastest I've ever done takes about 6 hours. but now when I try it again,
it almost becomes impossible.

I did a transaction once without a fee it took me 1-2 days to confirm, it was pretty annoying, but then again a 0.0001 fee is not the end of the world.

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: dHe_zHiq on June 20, 2015, 06:55:18 PM

Quote from: Rmcdermott927 on June 20, 2015, 05:51:41 PM

The problem with that theory arises when someone "forgets" to attach a fee to the tx. Try sending a no fee tx these days. With the current tx volume on the network, it is damn near impossible to send a tx without fee. It will get returned to sender within a day or so.

transactions without fee fastest I've ever done takes about 6 hours. but now when I try it again,
it almost becomes impossible.

If you both are so sure that a transaction without a fee will be returned to you, then I'd like to propose a challenge to you. Let's see you put your money where your words are:

I'll provide you a bitcoin address of mine. You send 1 BTC to that address without a fee. Then double spend that same input back to an address that you control (or wait for it to be "returned to sender").

If you can keep the transaction from being confirmed to my address, I'll send you an extra bitcoin as a reward for your effort.

If you fail to keep the transaction from being confirmed to my address, then I get to keep the bitcoin.

So, if I'm right, I gain 1 BTC from you. If you're right, you get your bitcoin back and you gain 1 BTC from me.

Should be the easiest $250 you'll ever make. Right?

dHe_zHiq

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Quote from: Rmcdermott927 on June 20, 2015, 05:51:41 PM

Quote from: dogecoinshop on June 14, 2015, 04:16:24 PM

Quote from: RealBitcoin on June 14, 2015, 04:06:03 PM

A payment takes 10 min to process. In what store can you buy something under 10 minute really?

Sometimes you have to wait 15 min at the tilt because the employee is a moron, if you could do that in 10 min i`d be very happy.

You just buy the stuff quick, pay for it, then put the bought stuff in a safe storage inside the magazine, and go looking at the other products until you wait for verification. Then after the verification is done, pickup your bought goods and leave.

It would change shopping habits, but whatever.

No ,that would make people leave..Really once blockchain see's the transaction you are good .i have stood their and tried to double spend and never succeeded(Testing) So , if you really want bitcoin to be used by the masses . Maybe try going to a real store and spending some ?

The problem with that theory arises when someone "forgets" to attach a fee to the tx. Try sending a no fee tx these days. With the current tx volume on the network, it is damn near impossible to send a tx without fee. It will get returned to sender within a day or so.

transactions without fee fastest I've ever done takes about 6 hours. but now when I try it again,
it almost becomes impossible.

Rmcdermott927

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Quote from: dogecoinshop on June 14, 2015, 04:16:24 PM

Quote from: RealBitcoin on June 14, 2015, 04:06:03 PM

A payment takes 10 min to process. In what store can you buy something under 10 minute really?

Sometimes you have to wait 15 min at the tilt because the employee is a moron, if you could do that in 10 min i`d be very happy.

You just buy the stuff quick, pay for it, then put the bought stuff in a safe storage inside the magazine, and go looking at the other products until you wait for verification. Then after the verification is done, pickup your bought goods and leave.

It would change shopping habits, but whatever.

No ,that would make people leave..Really once blockchain see's the transaction you are good .i have stood their and tried to double spend and never succeeded(Testing) So , if you really want bitcoin to be used by the masses . Maybe try going to a real store and spending some ?

The problem with that theory arises when someone "forgets" to attach a fee to the tx. Try sending a no fee tx these days. With the current tx volume on the network, it is damn near impossible to send a tx without fee. It will get returned to sender within a day or so.

iram66680

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Quote from: bitbaby on June 20, 2015, 05:25:19 AM

For smaller transaction I think shops won't mind and they will let you walk out with goods without any confirmations if your transaction has the right amount of fee and it is of 'High Priority' but for larger ones the shops might require you to wait for at-least one confirmation. Also you have to understand that shops have cameras and if someone does this, i.e. pays with bitcoin, walks out and perform a double spend, it will be considered stealing and if the shop owner complaints you will get charged, performing a double spend whilst shopping online anonymously is one thing but doing it face to face can have consequences.

But I think we're thinking too far here, Bitcoin is more suited for online transactions and this is why we need more online shops to start accepting bitcoin first because where I live I don't know any stores that accept bitcoins for face to face transactions.

What can you actually do with the footage, that's one thing. You can't go to the police and say this person stole something, they don't know which person you are talking about. If the double spend is successful, you wouldn't have any proof that double spend was conducted since the transaction will be dropped from the mempool. In some places, Bitcoin isn't offically recognized as a currency and that is another thing.

bitbaby

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For smaller transaction I think shops won't mind and they will let you walk out with goods without any confirmations if your transaction has the right amount of fee and it is of 'High Priority' but for larger ones the shops might require you to wait for at-least one confirmation. Also you have to understand that shops have cameras and if someone does this, i.e. pays with bitcoin, walks out and perform a double spend, it will be considered stealing and if the shop owner complaints you will get charged, performing a double spend whilst shopping online anonymously is one thing but doing it face to face can have consequences.

But I think we're thinking too far here, Bitcoin is more suited for online transactions and this is why we need more online shops to start accepting bitcoin first because where I live I don't know any stores that accept bitcoins for face to face transactions.

iram66680

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Quote from: 98problems on June 18, 2015, 07:38:04 AM

Quote from: bitnanigans on June 18, 2015, 07:03:54 AM

Transactions are broadcast on the blockchain instantly. Payments only take a while to process if confirmations are required.

well yeah but if they start making order and the confirmation arrives only after 60 minutes people can double spend bitcoins cant they?

Technically yes but practically, it's really hard. Once the transaction gets proporgated to a huge number of nodes and miners, they will reject any other transactions spending from the same input. Lest the miner uses replace by fee patch, once it has been relayed across the network and a reasonable fee included, miners would reject the next transaction spending the next input. To my knowledge, no miner with good amount of hashpower use that patch.

98problems

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Quote from: bitnanigans on June 18, 2015, 07:03:54 AM

Transactions are broadcast on the blockchain instantly. Payments only take a while to process if confirmations are required.

well yeah but if they start making order and the confirmation arrives only after 60 minutes people can double spend bitcoins cant they?

bitnanigans

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Transactions are broadcast on the blockchain instantly. Payments only take a while to process if confirmations are required.

ranochigo

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Quote from: Fat Ronaldo on June 17, 2015, 12:02:52 PM

Payments take long? They're instant. Sometimes I think the people who ask this question have never actually sent bitcoins themselves.

Even though double spending risk at no confirmation is little to none, the risk is still there. People don't understand how Bitcoin works and draw the conclusion that any no confirmation transaction have the risk of double spending. However, it is worth noting that in the event of 51% attack, transactions can be reversed relatively easily. It can be done but lots of computing power is needed to initiate such attacks. Many other methods still exist for transactions with no confirmations, all the seller have to do is to take precautionary measures to ensure the risk is minimal.

Fat Ronaldo

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Payments take long? They're instant. Sometimes I think the people who ask this question have never actually sent bitcoins themselves.

RodeoX

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Quote from: ranochigo on June 17, 2015, 05:14:52 AM

Bitpay. I have used them on various site and they don't seem to require any confirmations if the owner chooses to. If you wait for a few minutes and check for competing transactions, propagation and fees, I don't see why would you have much risk when accepting such transactions. ...

I think they just take the risk. The same is true for small credit card transactions. For example at McDonald's when you swipe your card there is no signature or pin number used because the chance of fraud and the stakes are so small. No criminal would orchestrate a fraudulent purchase of a hamburger, it would not be worth it. A double spend of bitcoin would require a lot of knowledge, set-up, and the chances of success would be small. It's just not a realistic threat.
Sure, if I were buying a car I would wait to see a few confirmations, but not for a sub-$100 purchase.

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Quote from: Amph on June 17, 2015, 01:59:49 AM

Quote from: randy8777 on June 16, 2015, 07:13:10 PM

Quote from: el kaka22 on June 16, 2015, 09:09:36 AM

As my online shopping experience, some sites requires no confirmation to the transaction. So since the tx appears on the mempool almost instantly after broadcasted, and it will detect that if it is a double spend (if not, then it is a real tx). So some shops may do this.

there already are shops that don't require you to wait for confirmations. you get what you buy instantly. but i don't think they will do the same if amount is higher than $20-$30

if we can have a very good regulation and services that take all the risk about a possible double spend when you perform a transaction, then there will be shops in the future who are willing to accept $200 worth of a transaction without any confirmation

the problem is having an authority that deal with this kind of stuf, a third party that connect the user to a shop, like coinbase, but coinbase still require confirmations, so a better thing than that

Bitpay. I have used them on various site and they don't seem to require any confirmations if the owner chooses to. If you wait for a few minutes and check for competing transactions, propagation and fees, I don't see why would you have much risk when accepting such transactions. The best way is to ensure that the transactions is in the mempool of the top pools and they have reasonable priority.

Amph

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Quote from: randy8777 on June 16, 2015, 07:13:10 PM

Quote from: el kaka22 on June 16, 2015, 09:09:36 AM

As my online shopping experience, some sites requires no confirmation to the transaction. So since the tx appears on the mempool almost instantly after broadcasted, and it will detect that if it is a double spend (if not, then it is a real tx). So some shops may do this.

there already are shops that don't require you to wait for confirmations. you get what you buy instantly. but i don't think they will do the same if amount is higher than $20-$30

if we can have a very good regulation and services that take all the risk about a possible double spend when you perform a transaction, then there will be shops in the future who are willing to accept $200 worth of a transaction without any confirmation

the problem is having an authority that deal with this kind of stuff, a third party that connect the user to a shop, like coinbase, but coinbase still require confirmations, so a better thing than that

p.s. ah yeah bitpay, i forgot about that, tnx for reminding me

dogecoinshop

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Quote from: Mr Crabs on June 16, 2015, 08:51:54 AM

Once the money is sent its as good as received. How is someone going to manage to double spend? Run around the corner and try send the same money again? Why are you not asking the same questions about shops and credit cards? The money can always get chargebacked something like up to six months later so are you worried about that?

damn ,your good . real good . damn I was thinking that . lol Right on!!!!!

randy8777

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Quote from: el kaka22 on June 16, 2015, 09:09:36 AM

As my online shopping experience, some sites requires no confirmation to the transaction. So since the tx appears on the mempool almost instantly after broadcasted, and it will detect that if it is a double spend (if not, then it is a real tx). So some shops may do this.

there already are shops that don't require you to wait for confirmations. you get what you buy instantly. but i don't think they will do the same if amount is higher than $20-$30

techgeek

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Quote from: RodeoX on June 15, 2015, 09:25:03 AM

Credit cards take 2-30 days to sort out. Users seem to not know this, but businesses know it well. So bitcoin takes an average of 10mins. vs. a week with credit, and it costs the business 3% for
the card. Shops do better with bitcoin.

Yup this is pretty spot on.

I help several friends with their business on the back end of stuff if they need help. I rather have the transaction also thats non-reversable as well since the product can be in a un sellable condition for them.

bluemountain

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many services like bitpay do it instantly not even a confirmation is required

iram66680

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Quote from: RealBitcoin on June 16, 2015, 09:08:55 AM

Quote from: iram66680 on June 16, 2015, 09:01:29 AM

Quote from: cbase on June 15, 2015, 09:08:21 AM

Quote from: edric on June 15, 2015, 07:03:06 AM

I think a system would have to be developed to make the process faster. What really can be done is to actually have a card-swapping type of system. User will have to enter his credentials in a machine and enter the payment amount. Then after authorization, shop owner can collect his payments from coinbase, localbitcoins or any platform. In short, coinbase, localbitcoins will actually work as a bank and can have small fees for their services.

That would be pretty complicating. The whole point of decentralized currency is that it is decentralized. If we bring in card swapping, or any other kind of banking stuff, then how will it remain decentralized. It will ultimately become a controlled currency.

other than that, the whole point of Bitcoin is to be as anonymous as possible. if a centralised authority control your money, it can potentially track you spendings too.

Quote from: Mr Crabs on June 16, 2015, 08:51:54 AM

Once the money is sent its as good as received. How is someone going to manage to double spend? Run around the corner and try send the same money again? Why are you not asking the same questions about shops and credit cards? The money can always get chargebacked something like up to six months later so are you worried about that?

the owner can always proof that you were the one who purchased by showing the authority their cctv footage. also, the ID aren't needed to create a Bitcoin address.

Ok but we are talking about shopping at grocery stores with this "bitcoin debit card" or "offchain payment provider" type thing.

I`m sure nobody cares if you buy a chips and a coke, there are atleast 50 people seeing you buy it in the shop so i`m sure privacy is not important there.

Well of course if you were to buy some intimate stuff (sex toys, medicine or intimate objects) then thats another scenario, and privacy is important there.

But so far from shopping groceries or other public objects, i dont really care, and neither should you.

Most companies would have to comply with the local law to operate there. If they happen to operate in a country with strict KYC policies, they would be required to have the customer's documents verified. This can be problematic since NSA are interested in spying on people. Isn't it so much easier spying them by the payment processor?

el kaka22

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As my online shopping experience, some sites requires no confirmation to the transaction. So since the tx appears on the mempool almost instantly after broadcasted, and it will detect that if it is a double spend (if not, then it is a real tx). So some shops may do this.

Topic: How can bitcoin be used in shops, if payments take so long to process? (Read 3422 times)