How can you spend bitcoin if you do not earn bitcoin?

franky1

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Quote from: bitbob82 on May 13, 2014, 10:30:14 PM

Say for example, your daily job pay you fiat on monthly basis, so you got the fiat money to spend,

it is not a good move to use fiat money to buy bitcoin and then spend the bitcoin as it will turn out to be more expensive and ineffective

the only thing i can think of is that you mine bitcoin and then spend the bitcoin you mine, however, this turn out to be ineffective as well due to the fact that difficulty have increased, and you can only mine less and less bitcoin per month

the other way is that you are the early adopter where you got more than 10000 bitcoin to spend , so you just spend it like normal fiat money

however

the 99.99% of population is not the early adopter and I can see no reason why anyone would spend bitcoin , anyone please think of a good idea how can we solve this

we are still in the transition between innovation and early adoption. bitcoin industry EG retailers, suppliers, etc is growing fast but not yet at the point were the general public are ready to use daily. so dont think early adoption has passed.. its only beginning.

many people that are not true bitcoiners. that just want it as a quick couple month profitable investment. they are not innovators or adopters. they are still tied to their FIAT, so dont worry about them as all they want is naive noobs to buy their coins so they can cash out. for the rest of us we are trying to aspire business acceptance and to grow new enterprises, while atleast trying to weed out and destroy harmful scammer attempts.. so as part of the innovation stage, dont worry about joe public just yet, concentrate on business expansion, making more uses of bitcoin, making new features and benefits to using bitcoin. and the easiest way to do this is to think "if i had X bitcoin, what would i like to do with it?" and try filling that void or aspiring others to fill the void

but inshort: you are correct bitcoin is not ready for the 99.99% of adopters (joe public)

keithers

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This is the land of wolves now & you're not a wolf

If you are spending the BTC once it is worth a higher dollar amount than when you purchased it, you are gaining money. Also if you are receiving a significant discount for purchasing with BTC instead of fiat, then it helps out there also. Also, soon there may be places you wish to purchase from that will accept BTC only...

Elwar

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Quote from: nuff on May 14, 2014, 09:47:50 AM

not everyone can get used to a deflationary monetary system.

Not everyone is successful.

I would rather not be part of that everyone.

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: nuff on May 14, 2014, 03:11:21 AM

simply because you lose more if you spend those bitcoins because they rise in value, unlike fiat which is inflationary. If say today you bought a laptop for 1 btc @450. Tomorrow the price of btc goes up 10% to 495 and the vendor adjusted the btc price accordingly to 0.9 btc. You lose out 0.1 btc, if only you just waited the next day to buy that same laptop but at 0.9btc. Spending btcs will always be a loss because it's deflationary.

You are ignoring the fact that instead of buying that laptop with the $450, you could have bought 1 BTC. Buy buying the laptop (with fiat currency) instead of buying the BTC, you are losing the opportunity for that unpurchased bitcoin to go up 10%. Therefore, you lose just as much (0.1 BTC) regardless of whether you spend BTC or fiat.

eternalgloom

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Quote from: bitbob82 on May 13, 2014, 10:30:14 PM

it is not a good move to use fiat money to buy bitcoin and then spend the bitcoin as it will turn out to be more expensive and ineffective

I bought some when it was at 200 - 300 dollar, it was already being shown in the mainstream media at that time.
The price has been all over the place since then, but it never got lower than the price I bought it for.

So for me it was definitely worth it, and I think there are many more people who bought into bitcoin at a very decent price.

themusicgod1

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Stop working for fiat, start working for bitcoin, problem solved. If you're working for fiat, you're basically as good as unemployed right now.

miragecash

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Great question you asked. You got me thinking.... Here's the answer to your question: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6726445 .

nuff

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Quote from: Light on May 14, 2014, 05:02:20 AM

Quote from: nuff on May 14, 2014, 03:49:26 AM

Bitcoin is fundamentally deflationary by design. Something that is limited in supply with an increasing demand, is deflationary. The spikes and fall do not change that equation, it's just the markets playing, the human factor, not because of its design.

Your running on the assumption of a continual increase in demand. Despite the best intentions there is always the possibility that Bitcoin fails (harsh government regulation from major countries would be an example) and as such demand falls significantly and we return to previous prices. If the human factor is significant enough to shift the market from where it should be doesn't it logically follow that even if it is deflationary it may never actually follow the theoretical trend.

Oh and on a side note - I suppose you could always sell goods and services for BTC instead of fiat if you don't want to exchange fiat.

The thing with Bitcoin is, it's either adopted into the world as a currency in which case it would be deflationary, or it busts, zero value. Since adoption is growing, then its value will rise, guaranteed. It's not an assumption, it's pretty much binary, 1 or 0.

nuff

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Quote from: Elwar on May 14, 2014, 04:19:52 AM

Quote from: nuff on May 14, 2014, 03:11:21 AM

Quote from: Elwar on May 14, 2014, 01:02:12 AM

Quote from: bitbob82 on May 13, 2014, 10:30:14 PM

it is not a good move to use fiat money to buy bitcoin and then spend the bitcoin as it will turn out to be more expensive and ineffective

Why?

simply because you lose more if you spend those bitcoins because they rise in value, unlike fiat which is inflationary. If say today you bought a laptop for 1 btc @450. Tomorrow the price of btc goes up 10% to 495 and the vendor adjusted the btc price accordingly to 0.9 btc. You lose out 0.1 btc, if only you just waited the next day to buy that same laptop but at 0.9btc. Spending btcs will always be a loss because it's deflationary.

So you should exchange your fiat when you get your paycheck to Zimbabwe dollars, lose several percent in value each day. That way when you buy a laptop for 3 trillion Zimbabwe dollars, tomorrow that laptop costs 4 trillion Zimbabwe dollars you gain 1 trillion Zimbabwe dollars for buying the laptop a day early. That way spending Zimbabwe dollars is always a gain because it is inflationary...right?

Or consider last year. On average the price went up by 1% per day. If you convert your $2000 paycheck to bitcoins on Friday and buy a laptop 5 days later the value of your bitcoins have gained 5% or $100 that you would not have gained if you had kept your money in fiat. Sure, every year will not be the same rise of 1% but a rise over time none the less.

So...why would you -not- convert your fiat to bitcoins?

Yes, if a currency has an inflationary rate as high as zimbabwean dollar, you should spend whatever you have the soonest. I would convert all my fiat to bitcoins if the whole world readily accepts bitcoins and nothing else. But since it's not, the world is still running on an inflationary system that is fiat instead of deflationary system that is Bitcoin. I prefer a deflationary system, where money you have now is worth more later than money you have now worth less later, but, not everyone can get used to a deflationary monetary system.

hensi

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TheSlimShady

Well the only way to spend a bitcoin without earning it in todays time is spamming people, and the other way of using bitcoin is using it for anonymous gamble, gambling with bitcoin is safer and anonymous than gambling with fiat money, so in countries where gambling is illegal, bitcoins could be used for gambling. Maybe these are the only benefits of btc.

Ibistru

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Quote from: nuff on May 14, 2014, 03:11:21 AM

Quote from: Elwar on May 14, 2014, 01:02:12 AM

Quote from: bitbob82 on May 13, 2014, 10:30:14 PM

it is not a good move to use fiat money to buy bitcoin and then spend the bitcoin as it will turn out to be more expensive and ineffective

Why?

simply because you lose more if you spend those bitcoins because they rise in value, unlike fiat which is inflationary. If say today you bought a laptop for 1 btc @450. Tomorrow the price of btc goes up 10% to 495 and the vendor adjusted the btc price accordingly to 0.9 btc. You lose out 0.1 btc, if only you just waited the next day to buy that same laptop but at 0.9btc. Spending btcs will always be a loss because it's deflationary.

Compare with the cost of Paypal transaction for buy something and your puzzle is solved.

/thread

Elwar

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I tell you what. When you get your paycheck, send me the money. When you want to spend your fiat I will give you money as you spend it.

If I convert it to bitcoins and gain value in the mean time, do not bother yourself with that. You can rest assured that you did not spend your money unwisely.

makebitcoin

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It is a small negative for Bitcoin spending that it deflates. In this scenario your best strategy is to buy and hold onto the Bitcoins. However if merchants bid you a good service and you want it bad you will spend your Bitcoins anyway. So its up to the businesses to give you an incentive to spend bitcoin. One of the many reason I use Bitcoin to spend anyway is because its semi-anonymous and you get really fast payments.

Light

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Circa 2010

Quote from: nuff on May 14, 2014, 03:49:26 AM

Bitcoin is fundamentally deflationary by design. Something that is limited in supply with an increasing demand, is deflationary. The spikes and fall do not change that equation, it's just the markets playing, the human factor, not because of its design.

Your running on the assumption of a continual increase in demand. Despite the best intentions there is always the possibility that Bitcoin fails (harsh government regulation from major countries would be an example) and as such demand falls significantly and we return to previous prices. If the human factor is significant enough to shift the market from where it should be doesn't it logically follow that even if it is deflationary it may never actually follow the theoretical trend.

Oh and on a side note - I suppose you could always sell goods and services for BTC instead of fiat if you don't want to exchange fiat.

1369

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so am i buying or selling? my head hurts!

zetaray

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Quote from: bitbob82 on May 13, 2014, 10:30:14 PM

it is not a good move to use fiat money to buy bitcoin and then spend the bitcoin as it will turn out to be more expensive and ineffective

If your local fiat exchange rate is falling against other major fiat currency. It is a good idea to buy Bitcoin. Purchasing power of Bitcoin will rise compared to your local fiat.

Elwar

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Viva Ut Vivas

Quote from: nuff on May 14, 2014, 03:11:21 AM

Quote from: Elwar on May 14, 2014, 01:02:12 AM

Quote from: bitbob82 on May 13, 2014, 10:30:14 PM

it is not a good move to use fiat money to buy bitcoin and then spend the bitcoin as it will turn out to be more expensive and ineffective

Why?

simply because you lose more if you spend those bitcoins because they rise in value, unlike fiat which is inflationary. If say today you bought a laptop for 1 btc @450. Tomorrow the price of btc goes up 10% to 495 and the vendor adjusted the btc price accordingly to 0.9 btc. You lose out 0.1 btc, if only you just waited the next day to buy that same laptop but at 0.9btc. Spending btcs will always be a loss because it's deflationary.

So you should exchange your fiat when you get your paycheck to Zimbabwe dollars, lose several percent in value each day. That way when you buy a laptop for 3 trillion Zimbabwe dollars, tomorrow that laptop costs 4 trillion Zimbabwe dollars you gain 1 trillion Zimbabwe dollars for buying the laptop a day early. That way spending Zimbabwe dollars is always a gain because it is inflationary...right?

Or consider last year. On average the price went up by 1% per day. If you convert your $2000 paycheck to bitcoins on Friday and buy a laptop 5 days later the value of your bitcoins have gained 5% or $100 that you would not have gained if you had kept your money in fiat. Sure, every year will not be the same rise of 1% but a rise over time none the less.

So...why would you -not- convert your fiat to bitcoins?

nuff

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Quote from: Light on May 14, 2014, 03:35:57 AM

Why exactly would it be bad to use fiat to buy Bitcoin? Everything has a cost associated and Bitcoin is the same - your pegging a fiat value against it. I wouldn't suggest mining - it needs a reasonable amount of technical knowledge which a layman lacks and it requires capital. Your argument that Bitcoin is deflationary is not necessarily true, if it was we would be continually trending upwards at a small rate rather than sharp spikes and falls.

Bitcoin is fundamentally deflationary by design. Something that is limited in supply with an increasing demand, is deflationary. The spikes and fall do not change that equation, it's just the markets playing, the human factor, not because of its design.

Light

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Circa 2010

Why exactly would it be bad to use fiat to buy Bitcoin? Everything has a cost associated and Bitcoin is the same - your pegging a fiat value against it. I wouldn't suggest mining - it needs a reasonable amount of technical knowledge which a layman lacks and it requires capital. Your argument that Bitcoin is deflationary is not necessarily true, if it was we would be continually trending upwards at a small rate rather than sharp spikes and falls.

nuff

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Activity: 266

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Quote from: bitbob82 on May 13, 2014, 10:30:14 PM

Say for example, your daily job pay you fiat on monthly basis, so you got the fiat money to spend,

it is not a good move to use fiat money to buy bitcoin and then spend the bitcoin as it will turn out to be more expensive and ineffective

the only thing i can think of is that you mine bitcoin and then spend the bitcoin you mine, however, this turn out to be ineffective as well due to the fact that difficulty have increased, and you can only mine less and less bitcoin per month

the other way is that you are the early adopter where you got more than 10000 bitcoin to spend , so you just spend it like normal fiat money

however

the 99.99% of population is not the early adopter and I can see no reason why anyone would spend bitcoin , anyone please think of a good idea how can we solve this

the way around it is to change our mindset. Accept the fact that what you're paying for in btc today would be worth more in the future. So you will form the habit to hold off buying things and spending in btcs as long as possible until you absolutely need to. So we won't spend excessively on a whim. Bitcoin is basically anti-consumerism.

Topic: How can you spend bitcoin if you do not earn bitcoin? (Read 1342 times)