Maybe employers can use these purported "problems" of paying in bitcoins to argue that wages should be paid in freicoins, with the workers free of course to use those freicoins to buy bitcoins with if they choose to. Freicoin seems to need some lure to lure people into it, maybe employers would be good people to approach about the idea of using freicoin instead of bitcoin, if only for paying employees...
-MarkM-
Topic: How could wages in Bitcoin work? - page 2. (Read 3191 times)
It's a weird concept to think about salaries with a deflationary currency. Instead of an "annual raise" you'd get an "annual cut"...
Imagine coming home from work and saying to the wife "Got my annual cut today, only 3%!"..."Congratulations!"
Imagine coming home from work and saying to the wife "Got my annual cut today, only 3%!"..."Congratulations!"
It IS weird to think that way but only because we are so accustom to the idea that prices always rise. What if the wife's response was "That's great the power company announced a 7% cut in our electric rates. More coins to put in cold storage".
Actually, if the money supply is constant, the average salary would decrease only if the workforce increases. Giving the world's demographic trend, it wouldn't be impossible for the opposite to start happening in many places a few decades from now.
It *can* work like this:
http://ciyam.org/open
(site is still being developed but not far from complete - get ready to earn BTC for tasks in a professionally organised way)
i get blank page http://ciyam.org/open
(site is still being developed but not far from complete - get ready to earn BTC for tasks in a professionally organised way)
Try now.
(sorry might have been doing some upgrades when you tried before)
Also you *need* to have JS enabled and it must support sessionStorage/localStorage (although I would have thought you'd see a message about that - PM me if still having troubles - this is why it is still in Beta).
It *can* work like this:
http://ciyam.org/open
(site is still being developed but not far from complete - get ready to earn BTC for tasks in a professionally organised way)
i get blank page http://ciyam.org/open
(site is still being developed but not far from complete - get ready to earn BTC for tasks in a professionally organised way)
One way I've been considering (given that I'm in construction with many migrant day-rate subcontracting workers, many of whom send money home) is to give them the option of being paid in Bitcoin rather than as a bank transfer. We wouldn't want to offer part bank/part BTC because the company pays a fixed bank fee per transaction so there's be the additional administrative overhead of the Bitcoin payment without the saving of the transfer fee.
The way I envisage it (and I'd welcome comments/suggestions) is to set up a system which would take a single DistributingAddress and for each subbie a BitcoinAddress, SplitRatio and IsOptedForBitcoin field. So the way the process would work is:
In terms of additional processes, on the pay run database it would be pretty straightforward to pick up who has opted for BTC from the distribution system and to calculate the ratios to export for import into the distribution system. The administrative and cost saving would be obtained from having a shorter list of folk to pay by bank transfer. Maybe it would even be possible to have the distribution system in the cloud so subbies could have access to amend their receiving address themselves and to select/deselect their preference for BTC/GBP as frequently as they want?
I could even make myself some pocket money by turning up on site at the end of the day on pay day to buy Bitcoin from anyone who wants some of it as GBP cash straight away!
OK, so I think this is now great in principle. The only problem I see is that I don't think the bank transfer charge for the amounts we pay is as high as the .6% MtGox transfer charge (plus cost of wiring the money to japan) would work out. Ah well! Nice thought.
For now I guess it would take demand from the subbies for this and a preparedness to take a hit on their pay to cover their costs - which they'd only be prepared to do if they understood Bitcoin well enough already that they would consider transferring their fiat to Bitcoin themselves (for saving/investing, for international transfer or for silk road)! Anyone here London-based who speaks Romanian/Polish/Lithuanian/Albanian well enough to come to site to sell the advantages of Bitcoin
Maybe also instead of using MtGox we could build a relationship with a Bitcoin dealer to negotiate a better rate.
If we did get this far and it worked then we'd also be able to offer to our off-shore clients to make the company part-payments in Bitcoin, thus saving them international wire transfer fees and delays. Then we're cooking on gas!
The way I envisage it (and I'd welcome comments/suggestions) is to set up a system which would take a single DistributingAddress and for each subbie a BitcoinAddress, SplitRatio and IsOptedForBitcoin field. So the way the process would work is:
- The pay run list is generated as it is now showing who is owed what after tax;
- The list is split to into two with those having opted for Bitcoin on one and those to be paid by bank transfer on the other;
- From the total to be paid in Bitcoin the ratio to be paid to each subbie is calculated and put against their receiving address;
- From fiat already sitting on MtGox the total (plus transaction fee) is converted;
- The exact Bitcoin sum converted is sent as one lump to the distributing address;
- The system automatically splits that lump according to the ratios and forwards to the subbie addresses;
- From an accounting/record-keeping perspective the net element of each Bitcoin subbie's pay would be paid off as its fiat value against the MtGox account.
In terms of additional processes, on the pay run database it would be pretty straightforward to pick up who has opted for BTC from the distribution system and to calculate the ratios to export for import into the distribution system. The administrative and cost saving would be obtained from having a shorter list of folk to pay by bank transfer. Maybe it would even be possible to have the distribution system in the cloud so subbies could have access to amend their receiving address themselves and to select/deselect their preference for BTC/GBP as frequently as they want?
I could even make myself some pocket money by turning up on site at the end of the day on pay day to buy Bitcoin from anyone who wants some of it as GBP cash straight away!
OK, so I think this is now great in principle. The only problem I see is that I don't think the bank transfer charge for the amounts we pay is as high as the .6% MtGox transfer charge (plus cost of wiring the money to japan) would work out. Ah well! Nice thought.
For now I guess it would take demand from the subbies for this and a preparedness to take a hit on their pay to cover their costs - which they'd only be prepared to do if they understood Bitcoin well enough already that they would consider transferring their fiat to Bitcoin themselves (for saving/investing, for international transfer or for silk road)! Anyone here London-based who speaks Romanian/Polish/Lithuanian/Albanian well enough to come to site to sell the advantages of Bitcoin
Maybe also instead of using MtGox we could build a relationship with a Bitcoin dealer to negotiate a better rate.
If we did get this far and it worked then we'd also be able to offer to our off-shore clients to make the company part-payments in Bitcoin, thus saving them international wire transfer fees and delays. Then we're cooking on gas!
Eventually I would imagine that Bitcoin's value will be much more stable than it is now. Slow deflation, yes, but not something where you'd see a huge price cut every year.
It's a weird concept to think about salaries with a deflationary currency. Instead of an "annual raise" you'd get an "annual cut"...
Imagine coming home from work and saying to the wife "Got my annual cut today, only 3%!"..."Congratulations!"
Imagine coming home from work and saying to the wife "Got my annual cut today, only 3%!"..."Congratulations!"
It IS weird to think that way but only because we are so accustom to the idea that prices always rise. What if the wife's response was "That's great the power company announced a 7% cut in our electric rates. More coins to put in cold storage".
Ok maybe that isn't going to happen.
It's a weird concept to think about salaries with a deflationary currency. Instead of an "annual raise" you'd get an "annual cut"...
Imagine coming home from work and saying to the wife "Got my annual cut today, only 3%!"..."Congratulations!"
Imagine coming home from work and saying to the wife "Got my annual cut today, only 3%!"..."Congratulations!"
.... when the BTC market scales to this size, the transaction fees of 0.0005 BTC would "suddenly" become a serious expense, so, payouts would be made as rarely as possible, and very likely some banks would print fractional-reserve milli-BTC notes to use as cash based on true bitcoins, and new "lite payment" system would arise
Unless the BTC market scales to this size "suddenly" the transaction fee won't "suddenly" become a serious expense.
The transaction fee can be whatever you want it to be, from zero to everything in your wallet.
.... when the BTC market scales to this size, the transaction fees of 0.0005 BTC would "suddenly" become a serious expense, so, payouts would be made as rarely as possible, and very likely some banks would print fractional-reserve milli-BTC notes to use as cash based on true bitcoins, and new "lite payment" system would arise
Unless the BTC market scales to this size "suddenly" the transaction fee won't "suddenly" become a serious expense.
.... when the BTC market scales to this size, the transaction fees of 0.0005 BTC would "suddenly" become a serious expense, so, payouts would be made as rarely as possible, and very likely some banks would print fractional-reserve milli-BTC notes to use as cash based on true bitcoins, and new "lite payment" system would arise
One could envision new ways of paying wages in bitcoin. You could pay pickers by the bushel. Every time they dump a new load, their wallet is sent an amount. This could work for all sorts of projects in an automated way. Forget being paid "by the hour". Why not "by the ...??"
Why not treat it like apartment leases, where every 6 to 12 months both parties can come together, discuss their situation (tougher times for the company v.s. have been an excellent employee performing all duties well), and renegotiate the pay? That way good employees can defend their income, the company can readjust expenses if something happens, and bad employees can be slowly gotten rid of as they quit due to lower pay.
Well first of all this is all theoretical because Bitcoin is far too volatile for wages to be paid however hypothetically imagine a future where adoption is very high. The BTC money supply is worth tens of billions a year and the purchasing power of 1 BTC is rising by a small but relatively consistent rate of say 5% annually.
An employer could offer an employee an annual salary of 5 BTC for the first year with a contract that the salary decrease by 5% per year with the potential of a partial offset for merit raises. Even better would be a sort of third party CPI type number used to calculate the buying power. The salary would be reduced by that metric instead of a fixed 5%.
In the interim I think a traditional fiat salary which is converted at payday partially or fully into BTC and paid to the employee is probably more realistic.
Alternately, a person might get hired as a janitor for 5 BTC per year, work his way up over a 30 year long career and retire as a manager still making 5 BTC per year. An employer could offer an employee an annual salary of 5 BTC for the first year with a contract that the salary decrease by 5% per year with the potential of a partial offset for merit raises. Even better would be a sort of third party CPI type number used to calculate the buying power. The salary would be reduced by that metric instead of a fixed 5%.
In the interim I think a traditional fiat salary which is converted at payday partially or fully into BTC and paid to the employee is probably more realistic.
Well first of all this is all theoretical because Bitcoin is far too volatile for wages to be paid however hypothetically imagine a future where adoption is very high. The BTC money supply is worth tens of billions a year and the purchasing power of 1 BTC is rising by a small but relatively consistent rate of say 5% annually.
An employer could offer an employee an annual salary of 5 BTC for the first year with a contract that the salary decrease by 5% per year with the potential of a partial offset for merit raises. Even better would be a sort of third party CPI type number used to calculate the buying power. The salary would be reduced by that metric instead of a fixed 5%.
In the interim I think a traditional fiat salary which is converted at payday partially or fully into BTC and paid to the employee is probably more realistic.
An employer could offer an employee an annual salary of 5 BTC for the first year with a contract that the salary decrease by 5% per year with the potential of a partial offset for merit raises. Even better would be a sort of third party CPI type number used to calculate the buying power. The salary would be reduced by that metric instead of a fixed 5%.
In the interim I think a traditional fiat salary which is converted at payday partially or fully into BTC and paid to the employee is probably more realistic.
this
According to main stream economists, prices have stickiness, and also the public, including capitalists and business leaders, are not informed about the fluctuating value of the standard currency.
Frankly, I don't think either of these points are important in the long run. If bitcoin is used, that would be the standard currency. After a while, people would be happy with falling prices, and would also accept slightly lower wages.
If the latter is not true, that will lead to existing businesses retracting and openings for new businesses (with lower wages), thus intensifying restructuring.
Frankly, I don't think either of these points are important in the long run. If bitcoin is used, that would be the standard currency. After a while, people would be happy with falling prices, and would also accept slightly lower wages.
If the latter is not true, that will lead to existing businesses retracting and openings for new businesses (with lower wages), thus intensifying restructuring.
Try thinking *tasks* not *jobs*.
As Akka said. But I agree that this is where we shall go. Companies might also disappear, leaving their place to a more intricate and organic structure.
In the meantime
, I think it's a good idea to index salaries to a collection of instruments. Food, housing, luxuries, etc. Even for fiat salaries, I don't know why this is not the convention.
I see no reason why labour unions and employers cannot switch roles.
A labour union and an employer are in a symbiotic relationship. Both benefit from the jobs offered by the employer and accepted by the labour union. Just as the union can decide to go on strike now, which harms both union and employer, the employer can "go on strike" by shutting down—harming both parties.
With a volatile value like Bitcoin's, negotiation will have to occur eventually—by both sides. Both the labour union and the employer have the option of going on strike if the other does not agree to negotiate.
A labour union and an employer are in a symbiotic relationship. Both benefit from the jobs offered by the employer and accepted by the labour union. Just as the union can decide to go on strike now, which harms both union and employer, the employer can "go on strike" by shutting down—harming both parties.
With a volatile value like Bitcoin's, negotiation will have to occur eventually—by both sides. Both the labour union and the employer have the option of going on strike if the other does not agree to negotiate.
Try thinking *tasks* not *jobs*.
That might work for you IT guys, or any other where Work is part of a Project.
But you Guys tend to forget that you are the exception, not the standard.
I have a hard time defining payment by tasks on a assembly line, where an overperformer does as much damage as an underperformer.
And I find it impossible to do that for a cashier in a supermarket.
Sure - this is something *new* and maybe not applicable to everything (yet) but now I would say "try thinking of results".
Try thinking *tasks* not *jobs*.
That might work for you IT guys, or any other where Work is part of a Project.
But you Guys tend to forget that you are the exception, not the standard.
I have a hard time defining payment by tasks on a assembly line, where an overperformer does as much damage as an underperformer.
And I find it impossible to do that for a cashier in a supermarket.
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