How difficult is it to change total bitcoin's 21 million suppply? - page 3.

squatter

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Quote from: dothebeats on August 12, 2019, 11:07:01 AM

Economic majority is not applicable for PoW coins. Hashing power is what decides the fate of bitcoin, not the people who holds a shitton of it.

Hash power merely decides which valid chain is the best chain. Essentially, their only power is to decide which transactions get confirmed, and in which order. They can't just arbitrarily change consensus rules like the the total bitcoin supply. If they break consensus rules like that, the economic majority -- exchanges, services, economically relevant users -- would just ignore their chain.

killat

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Basically it's impossible to change the total supply of 21 millions, as it's a built in parameter configured when Bitcoin has been created and it cannot be modified.

pooya87

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Quote from: Saint-loup on August 12, 2019, 11:56:05 AM

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Yes I think we could change that. Some other crypto currencies based on the Bitcoin code like Dogecoin, have no halving at all...
So I think theorically with a hard fork we could change the future block rewards, but since Bitcoin is famous for having a so called hard coded max supply of 21million,

your example of altcoins is good, but a better example could have been one of the fork coins that also copied the blockchain and changed the total supply, a fork coin like bitcoin-diamond.
also as far as i know 21 million is NOT hardcoded anywhere in bitcoin's code! there is a lot of other things in place (the block rewards, and halvings) that ensure the cap is not higher than 21 million.

Kakmakr

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There are no economic incentive for miners to accept a protocol change that increase the Bitcoin supply. Anyone holding coins now, will never accept a change that would decrease scarcity and also the devaluation of their current coins. Roll Eyes

The miners with full nodes needs to run a newer protocol with these changes and I can tell you, that none of them would be willing to do that. We saw how difficult it was to get consensus on "Block sizes" ...just imagine what will happen when they are messing with the total supply. Roll Eyes

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Everything is technically possible within the realm of imagination. Probably a BIP hard fork and a lot of code change. You can even change algorithm, rate of new block appearing, etc (see Litecoin and Dogecoin).

But, i don't think this will ever reach consensus. People simply do not want this. Those that do, go to an altcoin.

The first question is why do you want more bitcoins to begin with. This is probably a problem in your thinking, perhaps you are pro inflation, so most people will point to to ETH, XRP, DOGE, etc. Seems that you do not understand deflation economies to bring this idea again.

But Bitcoin was made deflationary. And even if you just wanted to change the number, i still fail to see the reason to do it, and most people will object it, just like the big blocks drama. In fact the blocks discussion was far more tame in comparison to this issue. Next thing that comes from time to time is the aforementioned crypto algorithm change.

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Quote from: franklin2058 on August 12, 2019, 11:16:28 AM

Ok, then let me reformulate my question. Currently the block reward is 12.5 btc, can we change that?

I believe this can be changed if the concensus of developers and miners agrees with it. I believe block reward is just a code that can be modified once majority voted for a change in block reward. Same rule applies to total supply. But I believe it is not that easy because there are lots of consequences to be considered.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: franklin2058 on August 12, 2019, 11:16:28 AM

Quote from: Saint-loup on August 12, 2019, 11:01:52 AM

Quote from: Losvienleg on August 12, 2019, 10:41:20 AM

Based on what I am used to hear, I would have first said that it is not possible to change the total supply.

But after thinking a bit about it, two things came to my mind, and at the same time, the answer to your question.

1) Total supply is just a parameter, so according to me (as I said, I have never thought about this precise issue before, nor heard anyone talking about it!), the sole people who would have the power to change it are the miners, and no one else.
That is for the your answer.

2) But now let's go a bit further.
On the other hand, I am pretty sure this is a situation that will never happen. Just see how simpler improvements led to great debates!
So the only way for the total supply to be realistically increased, is through a hard fork.

How would it be possible for the total supply to be increased: through a miner vote.
Will it ever happen on the main chain? No, that is sure at 99.99%.

I don't think there is a parameter in the code, I think it's just the result of the rewards of each mined block, considering the halvings until the last one at block 6 930 000 in 2140, that gives this amount of almost 21million of BTC.

Ok, then let me reformulate my question. Currently the block reward is 12.5 btc, can we change that?

Yes I think we could change that. Some other crypto currencies based on the Bitcoin code like Dogecoin, have no halving at all...
So I think theorically with a hard fork we could change the future block rewards, but since Bitcoin is famous for having a so called hard coded max supply of 21million, it would not be Bitcoin anymore and we would certainly get a contentious split like for BCH and BSV.

And you franklin2058, what do you think?

franklin2058

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Quote from: Leonardo7 on August 12, 2019, 11:34:27 AM

I am not a coder, but I understand the bitcoin cryptographic network is been operated on consensus rule, meaning if any major effect is to take place, it's agreed upon otherwise, nothing will happen. No party of miners will ever agree for bitcoin total supply to be increased above what we already have. The only thing we keep seeing is the fork of bitcoin and not increasing the total supply of bitcoin itself. Satoshi is/are truly a genius

With all due respect, you did NOT answer any part of my question.

Leonardo7

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I am not a coder, but I understand the bitcoin cryptographic network is been operated on consensus rule, meaning if any major effect is to take place, it's agreed upon otherwise, nothing will happen. No party of miners will ever agree for bitcoin total supply to be increased above what we already have. The only thing we keep seeing is the fork of bitcoin and not increasing the total supply of bitcoin itself. Satoshi is/are truly a genius

franklin2058

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Quote from: Saint-loup on August 12, 2019, 11:01:52 AM

Quote from: Losvienleg on August 12, 2019, 10:41:20 AM

Based on what I am used to hear, I would have first said that it is not possible to change the total supply.

But after thinking a bit about it, two things came to my mind, and at the same time, the answer to your question.

1) Total supply is just a parameter, so according to me (as I said, I have never thought about this precise issue before, nor heard anyone talking about it!), the sole people who would have the power to change it are the miners, and no one else.
That is for the your answer.

2) But now let's go a bit further.
On the other hand, I am pretty sure this is a situation that will never happen. Just see how simpler improvements led to great debates!
So the only way for the total supply to be realistically increased, is through a hard fork.

How would it be possible for the total supply to be increased: through a miner vote.
Will it ever happen on the main chain? No, that is sure at 99.99%.

I don't think there is a parameter in the code, I think it's just the result of the rewards of each mined block, considering the halvings until the last one at block 6 930 000 in 2140, that gives this amount of almost 21million of BTC.

Ok, then let me reformulate my question. Currently the block reward is 12.5 btc, can we change that?

dothebeats

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Quote from: franklin2058 on August 12, 2019, 10:26:30 AM

What kind of process have to go through? Who make the final votes? I guess the change is similar to implementing BIP.

Usually when these things arise, a group of people propose their version of bitcoin, then the miners will decide which way bitcoin will go to. A fork is created, and the version with the most number of miners and nodes will get the most support and basically that will be the 'chosen' one. Perhaps I'm wrong with what I'm saying here but that is the concept I grasped and is almost close to what it really is.

Quote from: franklin2058 on August 12, 2019, 10:26:30 AM

I heard many posts here said "Economic Majority" vote decides. Does this mean who hold the most bitcoins decide? Maybe not. I guess BIP is determined by Bitcoin Core developers, so the total bitcoin supply (21 million) is also determined by Bitcoin Core developers.

Economic majority is not applicable for PoW coins. Hashing power is what decides the fate of bitcoin, not the people who holds a shitton of it.

Quote from: franklin2058 on August 12, 2019, 10:26:30 AM

Also, the argument against the "Economic Majority" is it is often the case we can't find holder for the addresses with a lot of bitcoins. How can we contact them for vote?

An address isn't associated with any personal information whatsoever, so I don't think it will be an easy feat.

--

For further reading on the matter:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Consensus

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Quote from: Losvienleg on August 12, 2019, 10:41:20 AM

Based on what I am used to hear, I would have first said that it is not possible to change the total supply.

But after thinking a bit about it, two things came to my mind, and at the same time, the answer to your question.

1) Total supply is just a parameter, so according to me (as I said, I have never thought about this precise issue before, nor heard anyone talking about it!), the sole people who would have the power to change it are the miners, and no one else.
That is for the your answer.

2) But now let's go a bit further.
On the other hand, I am pretty sure this is a situation that will never happen. Just see how simpler improvements led to great debates!
So the only way for the total supply to be realistically increased, is through a hard fork.

How would it be possible for the total supply to be increased: through a miner vote.
Will it ever happen on the main chain? No, that is sure at 99.99%.

See here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_is_not_ruled_by_miners

I am afraid your understanding is wrong.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: Losvienleg on August 12, 2019, 10:41:20 AM

Based on what I am used to hear, I would have first said that it is not possible to change the total supply.

But after thinking a bit about it, two things came to my mind, and at the same time, the answer to your question.

1) Total supply is just a parameter, so according to me (as I said, I have never thought about this precise issue before, nor heard anyone talking about it!), the sole people who would have the power to change it are the miners, and no one else.
That is for the your answer.

2) But now let's go a bit further.
On the other hand, I am pretty sure this is a situation that will never happen. Just see how simpler improvements led to great debates!
So the only way for the total supply to be realistically increased, is through a hard fork.

How would it be possible for the total supply to be increased: through a miner vote.
Will it ever happen on the main chain? No, that is sure at 99.99%.

I don't think there is a parameter in the code, I think it's just the result of the rewards of each mined block, considering the halvings until the last one at block 6 930 000 in 2140, that gives this amount of almost 21million of BTC.

AjithBtc

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Increase in the supply of bitcoin happens through various parameters, and particularly miners play a big role in reaching concensus on the same. Even for increase of block size it was great struggle to reach consensus among the miners. I don't think this will happen, and if such a decision is taken bitcoin is gonna loss its value.

Losvienleg

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Based on what I am used to hear, I would have first said that it is not possible to change the total supply.

But after thinking a bit about it, two things came to my mind, and at the same time, the answer to your question.

1) Total supply is just a parameter, so according to me (as I said, I have never thought about this precise issue before, nor heard anyone talking about it!), the sole people who would have the power to change it are the miners, and no one else.
That is for the your answer.

2) But now let's go a bit further.
On the other hand, I am pretty sure this is a situation that will never happen. Just see how simpler improvements led to great debates!
So the only way for the total supply to be realistically increased, is through a hard fork.

How would it be possible for the total supply to be increased: through a miner vote.
Will it ever happen on the main chain? No, that is sure at 99.99%.

franklin2058

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What kind of process have to go through? Who make the final votes? I guess the change is similar to implementing BIP.

I heard many posts here said "Economic Majority" vote decides. Does this mean who hold the most bitcoins decide? Maybe not. I guess BIP is determined by Bitcoin Core developers, so the total bitcoin supply (21 million) is also determined by Bitcoin Core developers.

Also, the argument against the "Economic Majority" is it is often the case we can't find holder for the addresses with a lot of bitcoins. How can we contact them for vote?

Thank you indeed!

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