How high can the transaction fees become?

philipma1957

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 19, 2023, 06:43:36 PM

Look at the fee spikes of the past and double or tripple that to get some idea of how high they can get in the coming years. If Bitcoin shoots up, the traders will have more value in their hands and they will be able to tolerate higher fees when they move coins in/out/between exchanges. But the good news is that spikes don't last for long, just a few weeks and then fees go down to a more manageable level.

300 to 500 usd would be pushing what people would pay in most cases.

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Look at the fee spikes of the past and double or tripple that to get some idea of how high they can get in the coming years. If Bitcoin shoots up, the traders will have more value in their hands and they will be able to tolerate higher fees when they move coins in/out/between exchanges. But the good news is that spikes don't last for long, just a few weeks and then fees go down to a more manageable level.

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Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on November 18, 2023, 07:26:02 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on November 17, 2023, 12:32:22 PM

Quote from: Kruw on November 16, 2023, 10:54:13 PM

The mining algorithm has nothing to do with transaction fees.

yes it does.

sha-256 is setup to mine BTC. btc is 10 blocks an hour

scrypt is setup to merge mine 20 blocks of LTC an hour and 100 blocks of doge an hour.

So room for 10 blocks of tx fees vs

room for 120 blocks of tx fees

both Algos have LN service

So scrypt can do 12x the volume of btc

The fact you posted what you posted shows how deep the problem runs as you did not understand my concerns in the least or the reasons I keep writing this.

using btc via sha 256 for cash in small amounts is at a 12x disadvantage to using scrypt LTC/Doge

So rather then complain about high fees lets move on to proper use for

BTC
Large value movement of wealth
Large value storage of wealth

LTC/Doge
small value payments
small value storage.

The solution above would work . At least that is the way I see it.

Bcash and Bcash SV use the SHA-256 algorithm also and their fees are comparable to or perhaps even cheaper than LTC and DOGE. Ethereum has higher throughput capacity than LTC & DOGE, yet its fees are higher. Fees are more a result of demand for blockspace and total capacity rather than the consensus algorithm used.

Bcash and bcash sv have under 2% of the sha-256 network. ie almost no security .

scrypt mining ltc/doge merged have well over 95% of the network very secure.

so the glaring defect of btc is it can not move 12x the tx that it is moving now.

if it could you would not need scrypt and ltc/doge merge mining.

we can argue semantics forever.

so rather that do that.

I mean 95% or more of the hashrate ie BTC and Ltc/doge both have that thus they are secure.

but btc has 1 block every 10 minutes

and ltc/doge have 12 blocks every 10 minutes.

the most secure coin in terms of gear hash rate percent power use is Btc
the second most secure is ltc/doge.

I see what you mean by it is not the algo.

So I am clarifying myself

ltc/doge 95% of the algo’s hashrate a lot of expensive gear and high power use= safe
btc 95% of the algo’s hashrate a lot of expensive gear and high power use = safe

ltc/doge 12 blocks per ten minutes
btc 1 block per ten minutes

doge/ltc could use another super low hash algo but it would mean junking a ton of gear. the gear is in place the infrastructure is there.

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Quote from: philipma1957 on November 17, 2023, 12:32:22 PM

Quote from: Kruw on November 16, 2023, 10:54:13 PM

The mining algorithm has nothing to do with transaction fees.

yes it does.

sha-256 is setup to mine BTC. btc is 10 blocks an hour

scrypt is setup to merge mine 20 blocks of LTC an hour and 100 blocks of doge an hour.

So room for 10 blocks of tx fees vs

room for 120 blocks of tx fees

both Algos have LN service

So scrypt can do 12x the volume of btc

The fact you posted what you posted shows how deep the problem runs as you did not understand my concerns in the least or the reasons I keep writing this.

using btc via sha 256 for cash in small amounts is at a 12x disadvantage to using scrypt LTC/Doge

So rather then complain about high fees lets move on to proper use for

BTC
Large value movement of wealth
Large value storage of wealth

LTC/Doge
small value payments
small value storage.

The solution above would work . At least that is the way I see it.

Bcash and Bcash SV use the SHA-256 algorithm also and their fees are comparable to or perhaps even cheaper than LTC and DOGE. Ethereum has higher throughput capacity than LTC & DOGE, yet its fees are higher. Fees are more a result of demand for blockspace and total capacity rather than the consensus algorithm used.

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Quote from: Yamifoud on November 18, 2023, 04:29:04 PM

Quote from: Mate2237 on November 18, 2023, 03:17:52 PM

But question now is will this not affect business in the ecosystem? What is happening on the bitcoin network (blockchain) is not really speak well to the system. How can someone want to make a transaction of $100 and transaction fee is $12.5. in my country Currency to dollar exchange rate right now, that amount is very much big. So if such amount is only meant for transaction fee then many people will not do transaction for a long period of time. And this will not end anytime soon so many people bitcoin will stock in their wallets for long time. And as I have said before no one can calculate the future of this scenario and only thing here is for everyone to wait until the scenario is over.

Imagine paying $15 for a single transaction, nobody will spend those fees anymore, not this time until the fees come down as I'd rather use fiat money. This is the reason why Bitcoin is boldly considered as an investment, not a currency due to the volatile nature of its fees and price.

We're not sure how long the situation will be over. Some of my transactions stuck up and I don't want to increase the fees just to complete, I couldn't afford to do it. I'd say that increasing fees is also a reason why people were holding, not just only because the price is cheap.

In what is happening right now, the holdings of some of the bitcoin holders are actually being squeezed again. Have you had this problem recently? Think about how long we've been doing transactions in Bitcoin with low transaction fees, and now that we're attacking the high fees again, we're getting a little burdened.

How long can we face this fee problem? Do you have any ideas? Edi, if we have an emergency, for sure we have no choice but to pay the expensive fee for this matter. The headache of these fees being charged to us is too much.

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Quote from: Mate2237 on November 18, 2023, 03:17:52 PM

But question now is will this not affect business in the ecosystem? What is happening on the bitcoin network (blockchain) is not really speak well to the system. How can someone want to make a transaction of $100 and transaction fee is $12.5. in my country Currency to dollar exchange rate right now, that amount is very much big. So if such amount is only meant for transaction fee then many people will not do transaction for a long period of time. And this will not end anytime soon so many people bitcoin will stock in their wallets for long time. And as I have said before no one can calculate the future of this scenario and only thing here is for everyone to wait until the scenario is over.

Imagine paying $15 for a single transaction, nobody will spend those fees anymore, not this time until the fees come down as I'd rather use fiat money. This is the reason why Bitcoin is boldly considered as an investment, not a currency due to the volatile nature of its fees and price.

We're not sure how long the situation will be over. Some of my transactions stuck up and I don't want to increase the fees just to complete, I couldn't afford to do it. I'd say that increasing fees is also a reason why people were holding, not just only because the price is cheap.

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

Bitcoin fees are really going crazy right now, reportedly because the ordinal protocol is again disrupting the Bitcoin network, why hasn't the best solution been found to make Bitcoin fees more stable because to be honest, this condition is really disturbing! ordinal protocol is like a parasite that eats away at the bitcoin network, they ride on the bitcoin network because their NFTs don't sell on the altcoin network, it's really sad, I didn't expect that yesterday when I wanted to send bitcoin from my safepal wallet, the fee requested reached more than $20, I didn't expect that, did others also experience the same thing?

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Quote from: panganib999 on November 18, 2023, 03:43:34 PM

I don't think you could. That's a pretty tough deal to ask, and even harder to predict than the price of bitcoin cause at the very least we have concrete definitive factors that could play a part in what the price of bitcoin would be in the future. Fees on the other hand are a little more tricky since it all depends on the current congestion rate in the network, which is already something that's hard to predict to begin with unless you get something like the ordinals coming in.

I say you shouldn't worry about trivial matters like that. Reinvest your time and effort into much more important stuff like actually preparing for the foreseeable future bitcoin-wise. Good enough that you're saving your money on a multi-sig wallet, but I would suggest using multiple wallets for different types of expense and transactions.

Multiple wallets are an important way to manage and secure your wealth.

Having everything tied to single wallet will eventually jam you up or worse lose you some coin.

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I don't think you could. That's a pretty tough deal to ask, and even harder to predict than the price of bitcoin cause at the very least we have concrete definitive factors that could play a part in what the price of bitcoin would be in the future. Fees on the other hand are a little more tricky since it all depends on the current congestion rate in the network, which is already something that's hard to predict to begin with unless you get something like the ordinals coming in.

I say you shouldn't worry about trivial matters like that. Reinvest your time and effort into much more important stuff like actually preparing for the foreseeable future bitcoin-wise. Good enough that you're saving your money on a multi-sig wallet, but I would suggest using multiple wallets for different types of expense and transactions.

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But question now is will this not affect business in the ecosystem? What is happening on the bitcoin network (blockchain) is not really speak well to the system. How can someone want to make a transaction of $100 and transaction fee is $12.5. in my country Currency to dollar exchange rate right now, that amount is very much big. So if such amount is only meant for transaction fee then many people will not do transaction for a long period of time. And this will not end anytime soon so many people bitcoin will stock in their wallets for long time. And as I have said before no one can calculate the future of this scenario and only thing here is for everyone to wait until the scenario is over.

philipma1957

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It is an easy fix stack your btc and leave it alone in a cold wallet. think store of wealth.

Keep small amount of btc usdt ltc doge in an exchange like coinbase. think small buys sells etc low value etc.

If most people did this the high fees would be a non issue for most people.

If you insist on being a btc on chain only and nothing else you are feeding into the problem.

Here is an example I am trying to win an auction. If I win the price may be 0.0003 btc or about 12 dollars. if fees are at 100 sats that will be 0.000226 or close to 9 dollars.

the seller is willing to take doge or ltc

fees will be well under 1 dollar.

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Quote from: MIner1448 on November 17, 2023, 01:45:43 PM

It’s impossible to calculate this, or rather practically impossible, at least I can’t imagine how to calculate how much a transaction in bitcoins will cost in the future. In any case, even when a person calculates the cost of a transaction in the near future, this amount will still change; it depends on so many factors that it is impossible to imagine.

Calculating how high Bitcoin fee could go should not be what we need to be calculating. The market is still in the loading phase and that is what we need to be calculating. We need to make plans on how to buy more Bitcoin and keep because the bull market is going to be massive. Bitcoin tend to go extremely bullish by next year and we don't have to keep waiting for what will happen next how how the bull will look like. Investing should be a paramount not calculating how far the network fee could go.

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

Even if the commission becomes high in the future, you will more than compensate for these costs with the profit you receive. The growth in the value of bitcoin will still be much higher.

If a MultiSig cold wallet provides a greater level of security than simply storing bitcoin on electrum, then I believe future high transaction fees can be neglected. Security and reliability of storage are now incredibly more important.

There is a balance between greed and safety.

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Quote from: Jawhead999 on November 16, 2023, 10:27:09 PM

Quote from: headingnorth on November 16, 2023, 10:12:20 PM

Why the big spike causing the fee to double to $18 in one day? Who knows? Ordinals?

Yes, as you can see there's a sudden high liquidity in this token and Bitcoin fee is increased at this time too. You can check the recent block in mempool.space, take this TX as an example where someone willing to send 0.00000546 BTC by paying $11.24 fees, 546 Satoshi is a dust limit/smallest valid transaction in Bitcoin network.

- The equivalent of the fee of charges in Electrum is about that amount, so when I saw that I did not continue to transfer Bitcoin to another address, maybe I should wait for the tension to decrease with what is happening now with the network fee.

It hurts my eyes and pocket when the transaction fee's like that makes my eyes widen to be honest. How long will it take for the fee for each transaction made by bitcoin holders to drop again?

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Quote from: Biznesmen on November 17, 2023, 10:32:21 PM

The thing is you should have to be kept the fee at an average level. Otherwise people who are making smaller transactions are struggle with high transaction fees. It shouldn't be a regressive fee( like regressive tax, the tax rate decreases as the taxable income or wealth of individual or entities increases) but it should be progressive (progressive tax, the tax rate increases as the taxable income or wealth of individuals or entities increases). Progressive fee or taxes can be used as a tool for income redistribution providing social welfare programs, and reducing wealth concentration. They may promote greater social equity by shifting resources to support lower income individuals.

Transaction fees are not set by any one person or entity—they exist in a free market. The more people who use the Bitcoin network, and the more complex their transactions, the longer it takes for the average transaction to be processed, because there are only so many miners, and their processing power (and time) are limited. So as the number of Bitcoin users increases compared to the number of miners, the more you’ll typically need to pay to get your transaction processed in a timely manner. Of course since fees are paid in Bitcoin, the higher the Bitcoin price, the more your fee will be valued in USD, even if the same fee a few years back would have only “cost” a fraction of the current amount.
Transaction fees are high or low depending on how long it takes transactions to be included in a block at any given time. If there’s a higher backlog of transactions waiting to be included in a block, then transactions will take longer to be included in a block. Transaction creators can include a transaction fee, or set their transaction fee higher, to increase the incentive for a miner to include their transaction in the block candidate.

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

The thing is you should have to be kept the fee at an average level. Otherwise people who are making smaller transactions are struggle with high transaction fees. It shouldn't be a regressive fee( like regressive tax, the tax rate decreases as the taxable income or wealth of individual or entities increases) but it should be progressive (progressive tax, the tax rate increases as the taxable income or wealth of individuals or entities increases). Progressive fee or taxes can be used as a tool for income redistribution providing social welfare programs, and reducing wealth concentration. They may promote greater social equity by shifting resources to support lower income individuals.

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Quote from: ZAINmalik75 on November 17, 2023, 08:08:33 PM

Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

That's a good idea. I did not give it a thought, but in my opinion, you should. It is not that the fees are going to touch the sky soon; they are just temporary spikes due to the ordinals and other manipulation by the bad actors of the market, which will be solved soon, but it is best for you and all of us to follow this idea.

Because to setup the lighting network, we do have to pay the current fee, so if we want to avoid that, we should setup one when the fee comes down. Actually, in my opinion, I don't think fees are going to come back at the normal rate anytime because the ordinal problems are increasing day by day. Today I just checked the volume of Ordinals transactions, and it was ATH since its inception.

I was stunned for a moment, but if it keeps increasing, then it will be best for all of us to move to LN nodes before the halving because, after the halving, the price might become double what it is now.

It is not going to be ‘solved’. How hard is this for people to understand.

If people want to use an oil tanker to ship a 1 quart can of oil this will continue to happen over and over and over and over again.

People need to using the right shipper to transport .

Every suggestion I have read does not stop this issue. Here are some ideas

truly banning any sends under 0.0001 btc
making smallest fee 0.00001 btc
make blocks 8mb
no pool can greenlight smaller fees

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I got to be honest, it's times like these where sometimes my love and faith of bitcoin starts to waiver a little. I went to go send just like one hundred or one hundred and fifty dollars worth of bitcoin from one of my wallets to one of my online gambling accounts and at one point it wanted $15 and at another point it wanted as much as $25, and these are expedited transactions either, just medium speed. I decided against making the transaction and lost out on the chance to use that "money". We need better than this.

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

That's a good idea. I did not give it a thought, but in my opinion, you should. It is not that the fees are going to touch the sky soon; they are just temporary spikes due to the ordinals and other manipulation by the bad actors of the market, which will be solved soon, but it is best for you and all of us to follow this idea.

Because to setup the lighting network, we do have to pay the current fee, so if we want to avoid that, we should setup one when the fee comes down. Actually, in my opinion, I don't think fees are going to come back at the normal rate anytime because the ordinal problems are increasing day by day. Today I just checked the volume of Ordinals transactions, and it was ATH since its inception.

I was stunned for a moment, but if it keeps increasing, then it will be best for all of us to move to LN nodes before the halving because, after the halving, the price might become double what it is now.

philipma1957

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Quote from: darkangel11 on November 17, 2023, 02:47:17 PM

Quote from: MIner1448 on November 17, 2023, 01:45:43 PM

It’s impossible to calculate this, or rather practically impossible, at least I can’t imagine how to calculate how much a transaction in bitcoins will cost in the future. In any case, even when a person calculates the cost of a transaction in the near future, this amount will still change; it depends on so many factors that it is impossible to imagine.

It's impossible to know what the exact fee will be, but we can more or less predict it by using common sense.
Currently the average fee is $18 according to bitinfocharts. The historical top is $60 at the 2021 price peak when people were trying to exchange money fast, taking advantage of the premium. The price at the time was $60k, so the fee they were willing to pay was 1000 times lower than the price per bitcoin. If we were to estimate that people are ready to pay the price/1000 that would put us somewhere at $35 in fees and this is actually forming a resistance on the chart, because in May 2023 when the price went to $30k for the first time this year, people were paying $30 in fees and that was the top that lasted less than 2 days.

This is by no means a rule, but if we were to hit $100k next year, you could expect people to be ready to pay close to $100 for their transaction.

yeah if you started stacking last year at 16k and have 2 btc when it hits 100k you grab 200k for 32k

who cares if you spend 200 or 300 to cash it out.

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The sky is the limit.
We had some good years with solid low fees but these days and weeks it's just ridiculous. Making small transactions now has become impossible because of this.
I recently had to pay something and it had to be confirmed fast, so I had to spend 10$ for the transaction fee.
That's crazy.
Even sending Etherium right now is much cheaper than btc recently, and that says a lot.
Hopefully this kind of high fees won't become a normality in the bitcoin world, if so we really need some innovations to fix that.

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Quote from: BlackBoss_ on November 16, 2023, 08:45:59 PM

Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

You can check mempools there. The first website is more easily to use but if you need some advance, use the second website.
https://mempool.space/
https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#BTC%20(default%20mempool),24h,weight

Quote

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

You can use Lightning Network in Electrum wallet but you have to open your channel.

Basics of the Lightning Network
Electrum Lightning Network walkthrough
The Lightning Network FAQ
[Complete] A fortnight of lessons on the lightning network
Overview of lightning network nodes owned by forum users

Will be good to go through these links that you shared about lightening networks, it'll be really helpful to learn them, but I'm stock in my comfort zone and still paying the high fees. A member in my local board shared ViaBTC and how it works, yet here I am not taking advantage of any of these.

Guess I have to overcome my laziness and try one of these methods to bypass this crazy high transaction fees that we're experiencing now. It's really painful when we have to pay so much fees for a relatively small transaction

I know that the congestion is caused by too many transactions in the mempool, but nobody knows for certain how long we'll be faced with these high fees. Best to leave procrastination and embrace lightening network to minimize overspending.

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Usually, when the Bitcoin network is congested with a large number of transactions, the transaction fees become high. It doesn't happen always; lately, a few projects enabled mint NFT on the Bitcoin network, hence making the network congested. It mostly happens when that NFT project becomes hyped and a lot of people start using it. So high transaction fees aren't a permanent issue. Though we can't forecast the transaction fees in the future, using a SegWit address would reduce transaction fees. I am not well aware of lightning transactions.

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Quote from: jrrsparkles on November 17, 2023, 02:32:00 PM

Quote from: tabas on November 17, 2023, 01:48:37 PM

I haven't done that but if you can do that and that's going to save you some fees with your important transaction, you might just have a test and see how it'd go. Currently, no one knows how high that the fees will spike up. It can be as high as $20 per transaction or more than that depending on how the mempool is clogged and trafficked with transactions. The spam can't be stopped but it will eventually be emptied soon that shall make the fees go down and hopefully goes back to 1 sat/vB.

My prediction is about two weeks and probably it may end sooner than that.

As for now, there is a gradual decrease in the fee used in the last 24 hours.

https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#BTC%20(default%20mempool),24h,weight

Yeah, I've seen the double reduction that it has got when the last time I've checked it just this morning. Two weeks is actually quick but it's possible that it gets quicker because the last time that we've seen some pump on these fees, we saw it coming and it ended so fast.

Quote from: jrrsparkles on November 17, 2023, 02:32:00 PM

For two possible reasons, one is we are approaching weekends when the fee is lower in general than on weekdays or the liquidity/price of ordinals is losing.

I'm not sure with weekends related to the fees but once we see it drop more. Then, we are seeing that the signs are happening already however that this is going to be a roller coaster ride as well just as Bitcoin that we see up and down same goes with the fees.

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Quote from: MIner1448 on November 17, 2023, 01:45:43 PM

It’s impossible to calculate this, or rather practically impossible, at least I can’t imagine how to calculate how much a transaction in bitcoins will cost in the future. In any case, even when a person calculates the cost of a transaction in the near future, this amount will still change; it depends on so many factors that it is impossible to imagine.

It's impossible to know what the exact fee will be, but we can more or less predict it by using common sense.
Currently the average fee is $18 according to bitinfocharts. The historical top is $60 at the 2021 price peak when people were trying to exchange money fast, taking advantage of the premium. The price at the time was $60k, so the fee they were willing to pay was 1000 times lower than the price per bitcoin. If we were to estimate that people are ready to pay the price/1000 that would put us somewhere at $35 in fees and this is actually forming a resistance on the chart, because in May 2023 when the price went to $30k for the first time this year, people were paying $30 in fees and that was the top that lasted less than 2 days.

This is by no means a rule, but if we were to hit $100k next year, you could expect people to be ready to pay close to $100 for their transaction.

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Quote from: tabas on November 17, 2023, 01:48:37 PM

I haven't done that but if you can do that and that's going to save you some fees with your important transaction, you might just have a test and see how it'd go. Currently, no one knows how high that the fees will spike up. It can be as high as $20 per transaction or more than that depending on how the mempool is clogged and trafficked with transactions. The spam can't be stopped but it will eventually be emptied soon that shall make the fees go down and hopefully goes back to 1 sat/vB.

My prediction is about two weeks and probably it may end sooner than that.

As for now, there is a gradual decrease in the fee used in the last 24 hours.

https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#BTC%20(default%20mempool),24h,weight

For two possible reasons, one is we are approaching weekends when the fee is lower in general than on weekdays or the liquidity/price of ordinals is losing.

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I haven't done that but if you can do that and that's going to save you some fees with your important transaction, you might just have a test and see how it'd go. Currently, no one knows how high that the fees will spike up. It can be as high as $20 per transaction or more than that depending on how the mempool is clogged and trafficked with transactions. The spam can't be stopped but it will eventually be emptied soon that shall make the fees go down and hopefully goes back to 1 sat/vB.

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It’s impossible to calculate this, or rather practically impossible, at least I can’t imagine how to calculate how much a transaction in bitcoins will cost in the future. In any case, even when a person calculates the cost of a transaction in the near future, this amount will still change; it depends on so many factors that it is impossible to imagine.

philipma1957

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Quote from: Kruw on November 16, 2023, 10:54:13 PM

Quote from: philipma1957 on November 16, 2023, 10:50:45 PM

or recognize why it happens.

scrypt is the better algo for small sends.

both doge and ltc are dirt cheap to send coins . and they do it quickly.

The mining algorithm has nothing to do with transaction fees.

yes it does.

sha-256 is setup to mine BTC. btc is 10 blocks an hour

scrypt is setup to merge mine 20 blocks of LTC an hour and 100 blocks of doge an hour.

So room for 10 blocks of tx fees vs

room for 120 blocks of tx fees

both Algos have LN service

So scrypt can do 12x the volume of btc

The fact you posted what you posted shows how deep the problem runs as you did not understand my concerns in the least or the reasons I keep writing this.

using btc via sha 256 for cash in small amounts is at a 12x disadvantage to using scrypt LTC/Doge

So rather then complain about high fees lets move on to proper use for

BTC
Large value movement of wealth
Large value storage of wealth

LTC/Doge
small value payments
small value storage.

The solution above would work . At least that is the way I see it.

tbct_mt2

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Quote from: lombok on November 17, 2023, 02:32:32 AM

I moved funds from Trustwallet to Electrum, as far as I know Trustwallet doesn't have an RBF feature, but Electrum already has an RBF feature and even Cancel transactions for Electrum v4.0.4 (https://cointastical.medium.com/wallets-which-support-replace-by-fee-rbf-fee-bumping-5812c40bbe09)

Yes, fortunately the transaction I made was classified as non-urgent so it wasn't a problem.

So, this should become a habit when making a transaction, it's a good idea to check network traffic and transaction fees first to avoid the transaction confirmation process taking up to several days.

A wallet does not give you Coin Control feature, does not support Replace by Fee is not a good wallet to use. You made a good decision to leave Trust wallet and use Electrum wallet.

But I warn you that you must move your bitcoins from a wallet created by Trust wallet to a new wallet you create with Electrum wallet software. You don't know what Trust wallet use (as I know they are close source), so move your coins from the old wallet (Trust wallet) to a new one with Electrum wallet will help you avoid fear of risk with Trust wallet.

If you used Trust wallet that does not support RBF, your transaction is not RBF opt-in so you can not bump fee with RBF after import that wallet to Electrum. RBF only can be used if the transaction is opted-in with RBF initially.

Kelvinid

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Quote from: philipma1957 on November 16, 2023, 10:34:35 PM

and as I explained time and time again this can’t be done every day for ever but it can easily be done for one week of every 13.

It will back off by monday or tuesday.

then fire up again.

I guess I have to wait for that time because my withdrawal transactions are stuck already as I can't afford to increase fees with the current amount. The surge in fees is almost 1 month already and if the situation never changes, we never have other options and take, I believe that some people will sacrifice including me but on the other side, also teaches me to hold as well. Paying $1-$2 is fair enough but paying $3 and above is quite not acceptable for many.

Mate2237

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Guys I was shocked by seen the transaction fee today. I was checking the transaction fee today to know if it has come down to the way which I can withdraw or make a transfer but for my surprise. The transaction fee was $21.8 and the amount I was transferring was 0.012 so I stopped the transaction. And as it is now the transaction fee is also unpredictable and nobody knows when this will be over. Though the high fee season will be over but not now. Last week the fee was going down but this week now the fee is something else.

Op if you are not willing to make any transaction now from the cold wallet then keep the coins and you want to make a transfer then you can move them out from there and send it to Electrum and transfer them to LN and make your transfers from there.

so98nn

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

I am not sure what your purpose is but if you are a long-term holder then I am sure you do not need to worry about the temporary fee hikes. Moreover, it also depends on how much Bitcoin is getting transacted because if the volume is significantly large then whales definitely do not care about the charges required to transfer. It's also about the time. Once I had no rush and out of curiosity I just wanted to transfer my funds to the ledger. I broadcasted the transaction with low fees and it cleared my payment after 6-7 days. I think based on the scenario one can always make changes in the way we transact. This is a need of the future.

Because whenever the price goes up peeps start getting nervous about their sell orders and everyone at once starts broadcasting so it is obvious that we will have congestion in the network. This doesn't solve the problem permanently but yeah it can make things work during that temporary hikes.

Plaguedeath

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Quote from: stompix on November 17, 2023, 02:59:32 AM

Actually no, they can't!

Assuming that by miracle every single user decided they want to make a transaction in the next block you will still be limited by the number of coins, now ignoring that even the biggest addresses don't have a singly input but multiple so the size of the tx would be larger thus making the sat/vb smaller, you get 4000 tx with around 2 million BTC to spend, so the maximum for a tx would be 500BTC, indeed, still $18 million wasted since everything will be paid in fees but that's currently the limit, even if the price goes up it will never be able to touch infinity since even if the perfect scenario of one entity owning all coins you can't go over 21 mil BTC.

I guess we're both agree if no one can know how much Bitcoin price and the transaction fees in the future, by infinity I mean it can be as high as possible. The limit on the transaction fee you're talking about is related to theoretical in Bitcoin protocol whenever everyone agree to send Bitcoin at the same time.

But in this case, price is one of the factor and no one can guess about that.

Z-tight

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

If you are not spending your BTC's anytime soon, leave it in your multisig cold wallet, which is a more secure way of storing your coins. It is not a great idea to move your coins from your cold wallet to an online wallet, what is more important is that your funds are secure and probably by the time you want to spend, the mempool may be less congested and fee rate would drop.

Quote from: Popkon6 on November 17, 2023, 01:30:10 AM

Especially if you use Electrum wallet you will save some gas fee. Because the gas fee is much less in Electrum wallet than other wallets.

There is no gas fee in BTC, it is called transaction fee in the BTC network. Take note that tx fee is paid to BTC miners and the fee you pay isn't determined by the wallet you use, instead your tx fee is determined by your input and output and how congested the network is.

stompix

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Quote from: Plaguedeath on November 16, 2023, 10:08:32 PM

How high the fee depends on Bitcoin price and the transaction size (address type, inputs, outputs etc), so the answer is ∞ aka infinity.

Actually no, they can't!

Assuming that by miracle every single user decided they want to make a transaction in the next block you will still be limited by the number of coins, now ignoring that even the biggest addresses don't have a singly input but multiple so the size of the tx would be larger thus making the sat/vb smaller, you get 4000 tx with around 2 million BTC to spend, so the maximum for a tx would be 500BTC, indeed, still $18 million wasted since everything will be paid in fees but that's currently the limit, even if the price goes up it will never be able to touch infinity since even if the perfect scenario of one entity owning all coins you can't go over 21 mil BTC.

Jawhead999

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Quote from: lombok on November 16, 2023, 10:49:16 PM

So when many projects are on the BRC-20 network and it turns out to be excellent, when many transactions are carried out on BRC-20 coins this can be the main cause of congestion on the BTC network which will ultimately increase transaction costs. Is not it?

Yesterday Bitcoin transaction fees increased, I was willing to increase transaction fees to 56 satoshis/vbyte. I didn't check transaction fees and BTC network congestion, which made my first transaction take up to 2 days to get confirmation due to the increase in BTC network and fees.

Yeah, you can take this example like ERC-20 tokens during Altcoin season that make Ethereum network charge very high fees.

Currently average of Bitcoin fee is $5, sometime it reach to $10, the lowest is $2, so you need to expect like that now. Looking at the previous BRC-20 tokens spam last for 2 months, this time so far it's still 2 weeks.

Quote from: Strongkored on November 16, 2023, 11:28:04 PM

If your wallet provides the RBF (Replace by Fee) feature, you can do this as soon as you realize the network is congested and you really need the transaction to be confirmed immediately and also ready to pay higher fees.

Or he can use Viabtc if his transaction meet the requirements.

lombok

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Quote from: Strongkored on November 16, 2023, 11:28:04 PM

Quote from: lombok on November 16, 2023, 10:49:16 PM

Yesterday Bitcoin transaction fees increased, I was willing to increase transaction fees to 56 satoshis/vbyte. I didn't check transaction fees and BTC network congestion, which made my first transaction take up to 2 days to get confirmation due to the increase in BTC network and fees.

If your wallet provides the RBF (Replace by Fee) feature, you can do this as soon as you realize the network is congested and you really need the transaction to be confirmed immediately and also ready to pay higher fees.
I often do this when I don't check the mempool first.
The current situation is unpleasant for small transactions because the fees involved are quite unreasonable, making people reluctant to transact with Bitcoin.

I moved funds from Trustwallet to Electrum, as far as I know Trustwallet doesn't have an RBF feature, but Electrum already has an RBF feature and even Cancel transactions for Electrum v4.0.4 (https://cointastical.medium.com/wallets-which-support-replace-by-fee-rbf-fee-bumping-5812c40bbe09)

Yes, fortunately the transaction I made was classified as non-urgent so it wasn't a problem.

So, this should become a habit when making a transaction, it's a good idea to check network traffic and transaction fees first to avoid the transaction confirmation process taking up to several days.

SAHASAN

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I think its transaction fee may be higher in future. Especially when the halving ends.

Popkon6

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

It is true that the price of bitcoin will rise, and it is also true that the price of bitcoin will fall, so the future of bitcoin price is uncertain. If the price of bitcoin rises, the gas fee will increase when trading bitcoins, so you can use mempool to trade the right level. Because according to mempool you can trade exact amount of bitcoins. If the price of Bitcoin goes down then the gas fee will go down and if the price of Bitcoin goes up then the gas fee will go up.

Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

But if you are using lighting network then you will get this exact solution. Especially if you use Electrum wallet you will save some gas fee. Because the gas fee is much less in Electrum wallet than other wallets.

avikz

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

As there's no limit on the bitcoin price, similarly there's no limit to the bitcoin fees as well. Also there's no way to predict. You can check the mempool to see the current bitcoin fees.

Lightening network is a solution to it for sure. But it's a sidechain. If the bitcoin fees becomes higher than ever, it will somewhat affect the LN as well. Because LN also broadcasts the transactions in bulk. The Ordinals need to stopped once and for all.

adaseb

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The fees will stay high. I don’t think we will have a 1-2 sat byte period in a while, however the fees we are paying now aren’t sustainable. I am talking about 250sat btye fees, I think this will die down as soon as the ordinal market is taking a breather.

If you can try and make your transactions on the weekend, usually fees are lower. Last week it was easy to get 30 sat byte transactions out during the weekend. Then when Monday came the fees spiked right up again.

Strongkored

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Quote from: lombok on November 16, 2023, 10:49:16 PM

Yesterday Bitcoin transaction fees increased, I was willing to increase transaction fees to 56 satoshis/vbyte. I didn't check transaction fees and BTC network congestion, which made my first transaction take up to 2 days to get confirmation due to the increase in BTC network and fees.

If your wallet provides the RBF (Replace by Fee) feature, you can do this as soon as you realize the network is congested and you really need the transaction to be confirmed immediately and also ready to pay higher fees.
I often do this when I don't check the mempool first.
The current situation is unpleasant for small transactions because the fees involved are quite unreasonable, making people reluctant to transact with Bitcoin.

yhiaali3

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In my opinion, you should keep your Bitcoin stored on your cold wallet for now until the fee madness subsides a bit. Transferring Bitcoin to an Electreum wallet will cost you a lot of fees for now.

In addition, you need to pay fees to open your own channel on the Bitcoin Lightning Network. This means that you will pay a lot of fees at the moment, so perhaps it is better for you to wait a little while, perhaps the fee madness will subside and you will return to normal.

Kruw

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Enable v2transport=1 and mempoolfullrbf=1

Quote from: philipma1957 on November 16, 2023, 10:50:45 PM

or recognize why it happens.

scrypt is the better algo for small sends.

both doge and ltc are dirt cheap to send coins . and they do it quickly.

The mining algorithm has nothing to do with transaction fees.

philipma1957

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Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on November 16, 2023, 10:40:29 PM

Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

The fees are already too high. The best time to open a lightning channel is when fees are low because it requires an on-chain transaction. Lightning is meant for smaller payments so perhaps you shouldn't move your entire cold storage to lightning. I would just open a channel big enough for a few payments and occasionally top it off.

or recognize why it happens.

scrypt is the better algo for small sends.

both doge and ltc are dirt cheap to send coins . and they do it quickly.

they are not going away .

also so far no action against ordinals. so it appears the powers to be are fine with sending scrapes to ltc/doge for small payments.

no matter what btc does other than adding a viable coin for merge mining btc makes 1 block and ltc doge makes 12 blocks.

lombok

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Quote from: Jawhead999 on November 16, 2023, 10:27:09 PM

Quote from: headingnorth on November 16, 2023, 10:12:20 PM

Why the big spike causing the fee to double to $18 in one day? Who knows? Ordinals?

Yes, as you can see there's a sudden high liquidity in this token and Bitcoin fee is increased at this time too. You can check the recent block in mempool.space, take this TX as an example where someone willing to send 0.00000546 BTC by paying $11.24 fees, 546 Satoshi is a dust limit/smallest valid transaction in Bitcoin network.

So when many projects are on the BRC-20 network and it turns out to be excellent, when many transactions are carried out on BRC-20 coins this can be the main cause of congestion on the BTC network which will ultimately increase transaction costs. Is not it?

Yesterday Bitcoin transaction fees increased, I was willing to increase transaction fees to 56 satoshis/vbyte. I didn't check transaction fees and BTC network congestion, which made my first transaction take up to 2 days to get confirmation due to the increase in BTC network and fees.

FinneysTrueVision

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

The fees are already too high. The best time to open a lightning channel is when fees are low because it requires an on-chain transaction. Lightning is meant for smaller payments so perhaps you shouldn't move your entire cold storage to lightning. I would just open a channel big enough for a few payments and occasionally top it off.

tbct_mt2

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Quote from: Jawhead999 on November 16, 2023, 10:27:09 PM

Yes, as you can see there's a sudden high liquidity in this token and Bitcoin fee is increased at this time too. You can check the recent block in mempool.space, take this TX as an example where someone willing to send 0.00000546 BTC by paying $11.24 fees, 546 Satoshi is a dust limit/smallest valid transaction in Bitcoin network.

Dust limits are different for Legacy and Native Segwit, Taproot addresses.

Legacy addresses: 546 satoshi
Native Segwit addresses: 294 satoshi
Taproot addresses: 330 satoshi

How was the dust limit of 546 satoshis was chosen? Why not 550 satoshis?
What is meant by Bitcoin dust?

Code:

dust = (input_vsize + output_size) × 3 sat/vB

Bitcoin_people

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Bitcoin's free increases as the transaction volume increases. For days we see this problem where free is low for a few days and suddenly goes high. It takes a long time for this bitcoin transaction free to return to normal and we have to wait for that time, because it is not possible for us to trade with such a high free. Moreover, we have seen in the past when the Bitcoin market was at its peak and many transactions were free of charge. But it didn't stay for long but it came back to normal again. However, if most of the stuck transactions are completed, transaction free may return to normal. Trading pressure has eased a bit today as compared to yesterday and trading is free and reduced, hopefully it will return to normal very soon.

Poker Player

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Here we go again with the spamming crap in the mempool. I remember a couple of weeks ago or so I was able to do a transaction for a decent price in fees, but now if you want to do a transaction and get it confirmed fast it's going to cost you almost $10, and if the transaction you send is $50 it's a 20% fee. We will have to wait for the craziness to go down a bit.

philipma1957

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well my sha gear is happy. blocks are about 8 coins to 8.5 coins.

A 25% markup.

and as I explained time and time again this can’t be done every day for ever but it can easily be done for one week of every 13.

It will back off by monday or tuesday.

then fire up again.

Jawhead999

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Quote from: headingnorth on November 16, 2023, 10:12:20 PM

Why the big spike causing the fee to double to $18 in one day? Who knows? Ordinals?

Yes, as you can see there's a sudden high liquidity in this token and Bitcoin fee is increased at this time too. You can check the recent block in mempool.space, take this TX as an example where someone willing to send 0.00000546 BTC by paying $11.24 fees, 546 Satoshi is a dust limit/smallest valid transaction in Bitcoin network.

tbct_mt2

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Quote from: headingnorth on November 16, 2023, 10:12:20 PM

Why the big spike causing the fee to double to $18 in one day? Who knows? Ordinals?

It is surely because of Ordinals, Inscriptions.

https://dune.com/dataalways/ordinals
https://dune.com/dgtl_assets/bitcoin-ordinals-analysis

Two analytical pages for Ordinals, Inscription facts above clearly show you some spikes recently from Ordinals, Inscriptions. It is not new as Glassnode Insights had a report on it too.
Inscriptions, Mempools and Miners

They are just coming back recent days.

headingnorth

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NO SHITCOIN INSIDE

Average transaction fee ranged from $5 to $9 between Nov 12 and Nov 15, then suddenly shot up to $18 today (Nov 16) which is where we are at the moment according to this chart.

Bitcoin Avg. Transaction Fee historical chart
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html#3m

Why the big spike causing the fee to double to $18 in one day? Who knows? Ordinals?

Plaguedeath

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How high the fee depends on Bitcoin price and the transaction size (address type, inputs, outputs etc), so the answer is ∞ aka infinity.

Lightning network is a good choice to make your transactions cheaper, but I'm not sure if it's good to used as long term holding because it's not yet 100% secure The end of Lightning Network? , it's not the end of LN, but I just want to show if there's still a vulnerability in this network.

Litzki1990

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When there are a lot of Bitcoin transactions, Bitcoin transaction fees usually go up a lot. For some time now we have been noticing this issue regularly that Bitcoin transaction fees are high although sometimes these transaction fees come back to normal levels but still most of the times we see transaction fees high. Looking at the past and present, we have to imagine what Bitcoin transaction fees might look like in the future. In the past we have also noticed that the transaction fees of Bitcoin are sometimes very high but after a few days the transaction fees are back to normal and we are also seeing the same now. After a sudden spike in transaction fees, transaction fees are back to normal. As the transaction fees are changing now, maybe the transaction fees will change in the future as well.

Velemir Sava

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I have never tried it, but if the level of traffic density on the network, for example some time ago, the average gas cost was above $10-15 dollars and it makes us confused about whether to do it or not, especially if the amount we want to withdraw is small given the gas costs that have to be paid. not worth it/expensive.

At first glance, express transactions usually require lower fees and are processed faster in an effort to avoid high transaction fees on the Bitcoin main network and save costs. However, if you want to try it like in Electrum, that's okay, the important thing is that it supports the function you mean.

Kruw

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

The only thing more impossible to predict than the price of Bitcoin in the future is the price of Bitcoin's fees in the future.

Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

If you are storing your coins for long term, keep them in multisig (and make sure you don't accumulate too many small UTXOs). If you are spending your coins, keep some in Lightning.

BlackBoss_

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Quote from: BlockCheney on November 16, 2023, 08:40:29 PM

Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

You can check mempools there. The first website is more easily to use but if you need some advance, use the second website.
https://mempool.space/
https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#BTC%20(default%20mempool),24h,weight

Quote

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

You can use Lightning Network in Electrum wallet but you have to open your channel.

Basics of the Lightning Network
Electrum Lightning Network walkthrough
The Lightning Network FAQ
[Complete] A fortnight of lessons on the lightning network
Overview of lightning network nodes owned by forum users

BlockCheney

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Have there been made any calculations how high the transaction fees for bitcoin main network could get in the future?

I currently have my BTC stored on a MultiSig cold wallet, which can't be connected to a lightning node. Do you think it's a better idea to move them to a lightning wallet like on electrum for example before the transaction fees get too high? I want to avoid paying a big amount just for one transaction in the main network

Topic: How high can the transaction fees become? (Read 586 times)