Topic: How long would it take for Anarchy to start working? - page 16. (Read 16403 times)

When we discussed female genital mutilation, your reply was "As long as its not my daughter its fine."  How is that not "each for himself?"

I don't know how you've misconstrued "no rulers" as "each for himself", but I'm happy to point you toward a job in politics if that's the kind of lifestyle you're after

I have already given my understanding of what true anarchism is ("each for himself") and been agreed with here...
And that's what I really like about it!

It can take years but only a matter of hours to actually happen.

You're attempts at discrediting anarchism are futile.

I think those of you, guys, who deem themselves as anarchists are terribly misusing the term...
Considering what you say here (small isolated settlements, ostracism, communal efforts and all that nonsense) I would rather call you hippies...

Or maybe an anarchist is just an age-worn hippie?

How long that would take?

Until we grow past money.

Come the revolution and everyone will eat strawberries and cream! -- Willie Howard
After midnight It's all gonna be peaches and cream -- Eric Clapton

Surely there would be debt in an anarchist society?

Slavery is not anarchism.  Anarchism involves freedom and communal efforts as humanity.

Debt is slavery.

That's what I'm talking about. You can take any successful businessman and after some harsh scraping you will get a slaveholder in disguise...

The reality is that near slave like conditions still exist in some cases in West. Often even with apperance of everything being right. And the victims might not even understand they are slaves...

I understand that slave like labour has been used atleast in some restoraunts here. That is for labour intensive stuff that can't be always automated.

On other hand for many things it's not just cost effective anymore. Farming, mining and so on, much cheaper to get machines...

Slavery is built into human nature and it's exactly the state which is constraining it. But the primary reasons for this are not empathy and all other such things but rather economic ones. The present level of technological development makes slavery obsolete because under present conditions it is an inefficient form of organizing human labor...

Take any primitive society and they beyond doubt would have slave labor... Even ants have slaves!

They say that only some small percentage of population have mental skills needed to run a business and I have to agree with them. And even if you have these skills in you (among them not the last the trait which allows you to make people do what you want and how you want it, i.e. to be a dictator of some kind) you can't directly control a number of people beyond some limit. So, given the present depth of the division of labor, we really have no other options left but to build those multilevel corporate pyramids... As simple as that!

I think you would agree there are many forms of slave labor starting from underpayment, so in a sense any businessman hiring people could be treated as a slave holder of a kind... If what you alluded to but didn't say directly were true, we would not have such activities as illegal drugs trade (remember Silk Road?), murder-for-hire, child pornography and the stuff like that (and yes, slavery too)

So, according to your logic, we should implicitly come to a conclusion that any state would authorize slavery because it is established by people lacking empathy and thus approving slavery...

Do you know how this style of reasoning is called?

I have to confess that I can't say for sure if I would do business with the guys using slave labor (or some variety thereof) since I have never yet been there, but I definitely try to avoid people who knowingly sell stolen things...

But it doesn't actually matter if I in particular would do business with them or not. I personally know many people who would buy stolen things without ever thinking whether it's good or bad. I have absolutely no doubts these same people would deal in with someone using slave labor without much remorse about it. And I have to admit that some of them would even be happy to employ some slave labor if there is an opportunity

And they would do business between themselves whether I like it or not... 

isn't this wishful thinking? you're saying that nobody would own slaves because it's bad.. but you know what? the past is an indicator of the future, and throughout most of mankind's history, we've had slaves. in a dystopian society, which is what would happen under a worldwide anarchist government, i'm sure the few bad guys wouldn't mind owning slaves.

Would you do business with someone who used slave labor?

If not, and the other people you do business with agreed this was bad, the slave owner would either need to stop owning slaves or go out of business
If so, and the other people you do business with agreed this was bad, you put yourself at risk of going out of business along with the slave owner

I won't bother with a society which believes this is good for nobody wants to be enslaved, and a society which cannot grasp something as simple as empathy surely has no capacity to survive as anarchists for long; they're too busy installing a state.

Thus, the incentive of using slave labor is killed; the last resort is to ask the state to protect your slave-owning habits, but since that can't happen in a society of rationals, for what rational seeks a guiding force but his own, it's effectively squashed and business continues as usual.  Behold, ostracism.

Also: for the same reason that the rational does not need the state to dictate his actions, the rational has no need for a hierarchy of business; since every worker is equipped with the mental skills needed to run a business (it's kind of sad to note that they currently don't, despite 14 years of involuntary "education"), they can very easily form businesses together and share their wealth with each other as they see fit.  What good is a corporate empire on the local level?--it's just extra overhead for the worker, who gets what's left trickled from the top of the pyramid as our current system is now, and accepts it as he cannot see any other way to make a living, nor was he provided the skills required to see why it's screwing him over (though he will constantly complain about it to his peers) thanks to the corporate empire's bed buddy, the state, where there is no incentive to produce thinking adults via the educational system, merely productive ones.

But of course! LOL