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Topic: How Many Bitcoins do you own? - page 3. (Read 10647 times)

davout
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Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 05:25:02 PM
#61
Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
You do know what an analogy is, right?  You are being obstinately literal minded.  Forgery is the meat space analog to bitcoin's double spend.
Well, to me you're making an analogy between the taste of salt and the sound of the ocean. That doesn't really make sense does it?
Anyway, my point is that sometimes you can't compare stuff and you just have to accept that you're in front of something unknown and intriguing Smiley

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
"To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,"

"Woah there a minute Shakespere, the sea doesn't have arms.  And you can't have a sea of trouble, the sea is made of water you dolt.  As for fortune being made of slings and arrows; well you've gone mad haven't you?  Everyone knows that fortune is an intangible concept and therefore couldn't fight you with corporeal weaponry."
I have white hair and a balalaïka, your argument is invalid.
I like the shakespeare sample Smiley


Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
I know what a double spend is.  I'm saying that eventually one of the two parties knows that you did it; how could they not?  Only one chain can be valid at any one time.  You cannot double spend without (eventual) detection.
Yeah, not arguing that


Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
Why don't we just let this one go.  We're obviously talking at cross purposes.  When I said "you can't double spend forever", I was unclear.  I should have said "the same coins can't remain double spent forever".
Hahaha I was right you were wrong, I proved it to the world, I'm so much happier now than I was before!
Well actually, I don't really remember where this started from Smiley

I don't usually read english litterature, but I *do* have some shakespeare in english, guess I should read that instead if arguing with the rest of humanity on an internet forum Cheesy
realnowhereman
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 502
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
#60
Quote from: davout on June 07, 2011, 11:52:04 AM
Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 10:42:18 AM
Quote from: davout on June 07, 2011, 07:51:19 AM
You're describing making fake gold, not double spending gold. Bitcoin is much better than gold for forgery protection.
I'm describing the analogous situations between gold and bitcoins.  Diluting gold and spending it is analogous to a double spend in Bitcoin.
It is not. If you make a coin that is 50% gold and 50% lead and you try to deceive people into thinking it is 100% gold that is forgery, not double spending.
If you spend this fraudulent coin once the coin is then not in your physical possession anymore, therefore you cannot spend the same coin it a second time.

You do know what an analogy is, right?  You are being obstinately literal minded.  Forgery is the meat space analog to bitcoin's double spend.

"To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,"

"Woah there a minute Shakespere, the sea doesn't have arms.  And you can't have a sea of trouble, the sea is made of water you dolt.  As for fortune being made of slings and arrows; well you've gone mad haven't you?  Everyone knows that fortune is an intangible concept and therefore couldn't fight you with corporeal weaponry."

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 10:42:18 AM
No you can't.  Only one chain can be true at any one time.  Therefore one of your two transactions in a double spend will be discovered to be invalid.  You will be caught as a double spender; of course you might well have gotten away with the goods by then.  Just as if you pass diluted gold you would be caught eventually.
Double spending = making a valid spend, waiting to collect its benefits, invalidating the first spend by making a double spend.
Wait a bit, repeat. You can double spend for ever since you can have as much identities as you want.

I know what a double spend is.  I'm saying that eventually one of the two parties knows that you did it; how could they not?  Only one chain can be valid at any one time.  You cannot double spend without (eventual) detection.

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 10:42:18 AM
Exactly, which means they aren't spent any more.  In the end a double spend will turn into a single spend.  Even someone with 51% of the hash power has to pick one chain or another as "true".
Of course, thats pretty obvious, it doesn't change the fact that at that point you will have spent the *same* coins twice (spend = give coins in exchange for a valuable benefit).

Why don't we just let this one go.  We're obviously talking at cross purposes.  When I said "you can't double spend forever", I was unclear.  I should have said "the same coins can't remain double spent forever".

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Depends what properties you want.  I've never had the urge to hold gold, but I do hold bitcoins.

The only one you've mentioned that falls in gold's favour is that has some history to it.  We might perhaps add that the current price volatility makes day-to-day use a little, shall we say, "nervewracking".  Other than that, as far as I can tell, Bitcoin wins on every point.
You fail to see the obvious "acceptance" point, bitcoin has the potential to be much better than gold as a currency, but as of today you're much more likely to get gold accepted as a payment in exchange for whatever good/service you randomly pick on the surface of the earth, if you fail to see this simple truth you're deluding yourself.

Acceptance and history are the same thing it is only history that makes gold accepted; so I didn't miss the point, I accepted it.  I specifically said that that was the only property that gold had that Bitcoin didn't.
MadCoinMan
newbie
Activity: 13
Merit: 0
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 12:08:30 PM
#59
Quote from: bitcoinnoob on June 06, 2011, 10:53:22 PM
I am sad to admit that I have 0  Undecided

How Many do you all have?

I might be able to buy some beers. Any pubs accepting Bitcoins yet? Smiley
davout
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 11:52:04 AM
#58
Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 10:42:18 AM
Quote from: davout on June 07, 2011, 07:51:19 AM
You're describing making fake gold, not double spending gold. Bitcoin is much better than gold for forgery protection.
I'm describing the analogous situations between gold and bitcoins.  Diluting gold and spending it is analogous to a double spend in Bitcoin.
It is not. If you make a coin that is 50% gold and 50% lead and you try to deceive people into thinking it is 100% gold that is forgery, not double spending.
If you spend this fraudulent coin once the coin is then not in your physical possession anymore, therefore you cannot spend the same coin it a second time.

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 10:42:18 AM
No you can't.  Only one chain can be true at any one time.  Therefore one of your two transactions in a double spend will be discovered to be invalid.  You will be caught as a double spender; of course you might well have gotten away with the goods by then.  Just as if you pass diluted gold you would be caught eventually.
Double spending = making a valid spend, waiting to collect its benefits, invalidating the first spend by making a double spend.
Wait a bit, repeat. You can double spend for ever since you can have as much identities as you want.

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 10:42:18 AM
Exactly, which means they aren't spent any more.  In the end a double spend will turn into a single spend.  Even someone with 51% of the hash power has to pick one chain or another as "true".
Of course, thats pretty obvious, it doesn't change the fact that at that point you will have spent the *same* coins twice (spend = give coins in exchange for a valuable benefit).

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Unless of course they are abusing that privilege to make loads of orphan chains while they double spend, in which case the remaining 49% will see it.  If they aren't doing that, then no one will care as they are an honest miner.
Yes, unless you do it smartly and combine that with isolating nodes. We do agree that it's very unlikely/impractical.

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Depends what properties you want.  I've never had the urge to hold gold, but I do hold bitcoins.

The only one you've mentioned that falls in gold's favour is that has some history to it.  We might perhaps add that the current price volatility makes day-to-day use a little, shall we say, "nervewracking".  Other than that, as far as I can tell, Bitcoin wins on every point.
You fail to see the obvious "acceptance" point, bitcoin has the potential to be much better than gold as a currency, but as of today you're much more likely to get gold accepted as a payment in exchange for whatever good/service you randomly pick on the surface of the earth, if you fail to see this simple truth you're deluding yourself.
REF
hero member
Activity: 529
Merit: 500
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 11:44:11 AM
#57
That's a pretty personal question. That's like asking how much money do you have saved away in a bank?
realnowhereman
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 502
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 10:42:18 AM
#56
Quote from: davout on June 07, 2011, 07:51:19 AM
Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Of course you can double spend it.
You're describing making fake gold, not double spending gold. Bitcoin is much better than gold for forgery protection.

I'm describing the analogous situations between gold and bitcoins.  Diluting gold and spending it is analogous to a double spend in Bitcoin.

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Note as well that even with 51% of the hashing power, you still can't double spend forever.
Yes you can.

No you can't.  Only one chain can be true at any one time.  Therefore one of your two transactions in a double spend will be discovered to be invalid.  You will be caught as a double spender; of course you might well have gotten away with the goods by then.  Just as if you pass diluted gold you would be caught eventually.

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
One chain has to be the true one in the end.
There is no such thing as the absolute "true chain", it's all relative to a point in time, owning the network enables you to switch which chain is regarder as the "true one" at will. All first spends in double spends will reside in orphan blocks. No limit here.

Exactly, which means they aren't spent any more.  In the end a double spend will turn into a single spend.  Even someone with 51% of the hash power has to pick one chain or another as "true".


Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
All you can do is fool me for a while, just like with gold.
Theoretically there is absolutely no way for you to even be aware that the network is dominated by someone with >51% of the network.

Unless of course they are abusing that privilege to make loads of orphan chains while they double spend, in which case the remaining 49% will see it.  If they aren't doing that, then no one will care as they are an honest miner.

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Let's look again when Bitcoin trading is as old as gold trading is now to decide that one.
I'm not saying that gold is a better currency than bitcoin. I'm simply arguing that on this shitty and rainy 7th of June 2011, gold has much better currency properties than bitcoin. And of course I humbly admit that I haven't got a fucking clue about whether this is going to be a revolution or a failure.

Depends what properties you want.  I've never had the urge to hold gold, but I do hold bitcoins.

The only one you've mentioned that falls in gold's favour is that has some history to it.  We might perhaps add that the current price volatility makes day-to-day use a little, shall we say, "nervewracking".  Other than that, as far as I can tell, Bitcoin wins on every point.

davout
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 10:30:59 AM
#55
Quote from: matteumayo on June 07, 2011, 10:19:34 AM
Quote from: davout on June 07, 2011, 10:15:21 AM
Quote from: matteumayo on June 07, 2011, 10:12:34 AM
Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...
Don't feel bad, I sold 5K for 1500€

ouch.
I don't feel bad about it, it was the price at that moment.
matteumayo
newbie
Activity: 52
Merit: 0
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 10:19:34 AM
#54
Quote from: davout on June 07, 2011, 10:15:21 AM
Quote from: matteumayo on June 07, 2011, 10:12:34 AM
Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...
Don't feel bad, I sold 5K for 1500€

ouch.

Quote from: Alex Beckenham on June 07, 2011, 10:15:54 AM
Quote from: matteumayo on June 07, 2011, 10:12:34 AM
Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...

I've only been able to scrounge 10 or so BTC since then via mining... kinda depressing the more I think about it Embarrassed

Don't worry, I'm sure it's being used for a good cause hookers and blow.

heh
Alex Beckenham
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 10:15:54 AM
#53
Quote from: matteumayo on June 07, 2011, 10:12:34 AM
Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...

I've only been able to scrounge 10 or so BTC since then via mining... kinda depressing the more I think about it Embarrassed

Don't worry, I'm sure it's being used for a good cause hookers and blow.
davout
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 10:15:21 AM
#52
Quote from: matteumayo on June 07, 2011, 10:12:34 AM
Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...
Don't feel bad, I sold 5K for 1500€
matteumayo
newbie
Activity: 52
Merit: 0
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 10:12:34 AM
#51
Reading this makes me really upset that I sold 112 (all) of my BTC a couple months ago for only $118...

I've only been able to scrounge 10 or so BTC since then via mining... kinda depressing the more I think about it Embarrassed
jerfelix
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 09:35:49 AM
#50
Quote from: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 09:12:58 AM
Quote from: Litt on June 07, 2011, 08:56:50 AM
you guys have so many its un believable  Lips sealed

I haven't seen anyone post a sizable amount yet! Well... maybe "over 9000" is a decent amount.

I posted the link to show that the top 100 people are listed as having between 6700 and 297,000
http://bitcoinreport.blogspot.com/2011/06/bitcoin-top-100-rich-list-3rd-june-2011.html
dayfall
sr. member
Activity: 312
Merit: 250
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 09:28:33 AM
#49
500 or so. 
davout
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 09:22:58 AM
#48
Quote from: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 09:12:58 AM
Quote from: Litt on June 07, 2011, 08:56:50 AM
you guys have so many its un believable  Lips sealed

I haven't seen anyone post a sizable amount yet! Well... maybe "over 9000" is a decent amount.
I don't actually own over 9000 Wink

At some point I did but not anymore
TheRandomGuy
full member
Activity: 162
Merit: 100
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 09:17:24 AM
#47
None.
rezin777
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 09:12:58 AM
#46
Quote from: Litt on June 07, 2011, 08:56:50 AM
you guys have so many its un believable  Lips sealed

I haven't seen anyone post a sizable amount yet! Well... maybe "over 9000" is a decent amount.
Litt
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 08:56:50 AM
#45
you guys have so many its un believable  Lips sealed
Vladimir
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1001
-
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 08:02:30 AM
#44
davout, I am not arguing that gold is useless, it has quite a few things going for it... so is bitcoin and yet bitcoin is new and not proven and it's price does reflect those risks.

I suppose that we will just have to agree to agree here  Grin
davout
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 07:51:19 AM
#43
Quote from: Vladimir on June 07, 2011, 07:27:56 AM
Can you teleport gold?
No, I can pay with pecunix et al. though.

Quote from: Vladimir on June 07, 2011, 07:27:56 AM
Can you hide it so that a guy with a metal detector cannot find it?
You mean bitcoin is easily transportable ? Through borders for example ?

Yes, fair enough.

But you seem to fail to realize that the first desirable property of a currency is acceptance.

And *currently* gold is much better than bitcoin in that respect.


Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Of course you can double spend it.
You're describing making fake gold, not double spending gold. Bitcoin is much better than gold for forgery protection.

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Note as well that even with 51% of the hashing power, you still can't double spend forever.
Yes you can.

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
One chain has to be the true one in the end.
There is no such thing as the absolute "true chain", it's all relative to a point in time, owning the network enables you to switch which chain is regarder as the "true one" at will. All first spends in double spends will reside in orphan blocks. No limit here.

Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
All you can do is fool me for a while, just like with gold.
Theoretically there is absolutely no way for you to even be aware that the network is dominated by someone with >51% of the network.


Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Being more widely accepted is purely a matter of history and chance.
Yes


Quote from: realnowhereman on June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
Let's look again when Bitcoin trading is as old as gold trading is now to decide that one.
I'm not saying that gold is a better currency than bitcoin. I'm simply arguing that on this shitty and rainy 7th of June 2011, gold has much better currency properties than bitcoin. And of course I humbly admit that I haven't got a fucking clue about whether this is going to be a revolution or a failure.
realnowhereman
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 502
Re: How Many Bitcoins do you own?
June 07, 2011, 07:31:12 AM
#42
Quote from: davout on June 07, 2011, 07:16:49 AM
Quote from: Vladimir on June 07, 2011, 07:09:12 AM
Bitcoin have properties which makes it good both as currency AND as store of value. Unlike anything else known to mankind.
Well, gold has much better properties as a currency, I cannot double spend it, even if I have 51% of all the mining power, and it's more widely accepted, for now.

Also over 9000

Of course you can double spend it.

Take one bar.  Cut it in half.  Mix it with lead.  Make two bars.  Or whatever, ask a metallurgist.

The point is, I need to verify gold that you might give me.  I need to verify Bitcoins that you might give me.  Note as well that even with 51% of the hashing power, you still can't double spend forever.  One chain has to be the true one in the end.  All you can do is fool me for a while, just like with gold.

Being more widely accepted is purely a matter of history and chance.  Who knows what will happen to Bitcoin's acceptance?  Let's look again when Bitcoin trading is as old as gold trading is now to decide that one.
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