how many unspendable bitcoins are there?

szpalata

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Quote from: European Central Bank on May 28, 2017, 07:42:57 AM

Quote from: audaciousbeing on May 28, 2017, 07:39:36 AM

This should not even be a subject of discussion because I don't understand how I won't be able to fund my transfer to another place that I wanted.

sure, you can send money in to send it out again, but that's completely pointless because all you're doing is paying more to move less than what the fee cost anyway, plus you're adding another input to fund.

I completely agree with you because what you spend in transaction fees in trying to add up to to what is stuck in your wallet before you move all out might even be bigger than what is stuck in the wallet so it's pointless like you said to even bother moving it and so it will remain there forever and I bet there are many thousands of people who have similar issues with unmovable bitcoins or satoshis that if we add all of them up might be worthy enough.

deisik

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Quote from: ranochigo on May 28, 2017, 08:24:39 AM

Quote from: dothebeats on May 28, 2017, 08:11:24 AM

I still have a total of 1.756 btc in my blockchain wallet which remains unspendable since it all came from the spam attacks last 2015.

This is a problem I'd love to have.

I guess you wouldn't unless you knew how to solve it

This will just give you a constant pain in the ass. You wouldn't be sleeping at nights (and likely in daytime too), always obsessed with bizarre ideas how to collect all these satoshi into a spendable amount. You may even end up in a lunatic asylum being haunted by these coins at the end of the day. It is basically the same as losing your private key from your wallet or even worse than that

soul-impact

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Quote from: European Central Bank on May 28, 2017, 07:32:53 AM

if we assume the fee situation doesn't improve, and it may never, how many coins are stuck in addresses that can't even fund their own movement? it must be adding up to quite a significant number by now.

No, with the current charge, any transaction is processed, it may be slow, but it never gets stuck. To be honest, I feel it is causing a waste for all of us. And if no resolution, I think bitcoin will be eliminated.

Quote from: Flyyyy on May 28, 2017, 07:47:40 AM

This situation will be solved. The more people use bitcoin, the faster this problem will be solved. Bitcoin has already become very important for many. I am sure that the decision will soon be made

You are wrong, look at the past, when bitcoin is not popular, the transaction is confirmed only after a few minutes, but with the current situation, there are too many transactions every day, bitcoin becomes overloaded, So, too many users will make the bitcoin become slow.

ubercool

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Quote from: ScorpionKing on May 29, 2017, 12:57:56 AM

Yup, if you include the old days addresses that never were moved and are very unlikely to be stored or cold wallets it would reach a huge sum, some where as well lost recently but the values are usually much lower than the older ones, Didn't see any stats before about the number though, Anyway the less the other coins the more valuable are ours.

It will be a problem sooner or later, right now it may be negligible but with fees rising and the people could not pay for it will abandon those BTC in their wallets. Sending some BTC to take that out is meaningless, we can trade them in exchanges if it is in those wallets but other wallets will be impossible to take out.

prieaji

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How many people will use bitcoin then the more that will be overcome, now this bitcoin is very important to us all.
Still focus what we are dealing with bitcoin in the future.

Iranus

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Quote from: Kakmakr on May 29, 2017, 02:34:35 AM

Why would people want to publicly announce that they lost huge amounts of bitcoins and risk making a fool of themselves.

This isn't about lost coins, it's about unspendable coins from dust addresses. Try reading the thread.

Well, if we ignore transaction accelerators and assume that people have to pay the recommended fee, then we can assume any Bitcoin is unspendable which is worth less than what it adds to the size of a transaction.

Each transaction they receive adds at least 148 bytes to the transaction size, so assuming that they use the recommended fee of 360 satoshi/byte, they would have to pay 53280 satoshi, making any addresses containing less than 0.0005328 worthless (or near worthless if they pay a slightly lower fee).

Kakmakr

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If I can draw a nasty comparison with reported rape cases, then we might get an idea how big this is. A lot of people are too embarrassed to report rape incidents and this is applicable to Bitcoin too. Why would people want to publicly announce that they lost huge amounts of bitcoins and risk making a fool of themselves.

We will have false reports too, where shills will spread FUD and sensational stories to create the wrong idea about Bitcoin.

ScorpionKing

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Yup, if you include the old days addresses that never were moved and are very unlikely to be stored or cold wallets it would reach a huge sum, some where as well lost recently but the values are usually much lower than the older ones, Didn't see any stats before about the number though, Anyway the less the other coins the more valuable are ours.

European Central Bank

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Quote from: majeed on May 28, 2017, 08:39:26 AM

What are you mean by that? Unconfirmed transactions or unspendable bitcoin? I believe that there are many coins which can not be spent because the users forgot to save their private key and lose their password, etc

i mean amounts of bitcoin in accessible wallets that are worth less than the fee to send them out of them.

majeed

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Damn

Quote from: European Central Bank on May 28, 2017, 07:32:53 AM

if we assume the fee situation doesn't improve, and it may never, how many coins are stuck in addresses that can't even fund their own movement? it must be adding up to quite a significant number by now.

What are you mean by that? Unconfirmed transactions or unspendable bitcoin? I believe that there are many coins which can not be spent because the users forgot to save their private key and lose their password, etc

ranochigo

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Quote from: Quartx on May 28, 2017, 07:44:34 AM

Low fees can be fixed by child pays for parent tx with higher fees, miner has to confirm prior tx and the Childpayforparent tx to get both fees. A replace by fee tx can also be made if enabled.

Coins stuck in unconfirmed state for too long will simply stop being relayed after some time, over time they will simply drop out of the global mempool, its like the tx wasnt even made at all.

According to https://bitcoinfees.21.co/, seems like at least 100000 txes stuck under 120 sats/byte fees.

You aren't reading the topic. The topic is talking about how dust outputs (etc. hundreds of unspent outputs with 5000 satoshi) and they are very expensive to spend due to the high fee incurred with the transaction. CPFP/Adding more fees will not help with the problem.

*Don't have to reply to this but generally if you can infer from "Too small to fund their own movement" it would obviously be implying that they don't have enough funds to pay their own fee. Maybe we have a different understanding but the term stuck within the address means that the amount of fees paid to output in comparison to transaction value is not feasible. The whole thread intention was to discuss about dealing with those very small outputs and not stuck transactions.

Quote from: Quartx on May 28, 2017, 07:44:34 AM

Typical hooman, does not understand , refuses to understand, telling others not to understand. ROFL

Quote from: dothebeats on May 28, 2017, 08:11:24 AM

I still have a total of 1.756 btc in my blockchain wallet which remains unspendable since it all came from the spam attacks last 2015.

This is a problem I'd love to have.

deisik

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Quote from: dothebeats on May 28, 2017, 08:11:24 AM

We can get the number of unconfirmed tx to add it to the stats however getting the exact amount of unspendable coins due to tx fee wouldn't be worthwhile. Dust outputs also adds up to the tx fee as well, and it wouldn't be worthwhile to collect dust since you'll have trouble spending them in the future. I still have a total of 1.756 btc in my blockchain wallet which remains unspendable since it all came from the spam attacks last 2015.

Wow, that's something!

And that makes over 3,500 dollars of dust combined. I guess you should be a great proponent of Lightning Network right now since this update would likely allow you to collect all this dust in one wallet eventually. It may be worth to set up a full node, wait patiently until LN gets activated, and then do the dirty job yourself. I'm curious how many wallets you have that you managed to make that much money out of spam transactions

dothebeats

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We can get the number of unconfirmed tx to add it to the stats however getting the exact amount of unspendable coins due to tx fee wouldn't be worthwhile. Dust outputs also adds up to the tx fee as well, and it wouldn't be worthwhile to collect dust since you'll have trouble spending them in the future. I still have a total of 1.756 btc in my blockchain wallet which remains unspendable since it all came from the spam attacks last 2015.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: European Central Bank on May 28, 2017, 07:32:53 AM

if we assume the fee situation doesn't improve, and it may never, how many coins are stuck in addresses that can't even fund their own movement? it must be adding up to quite a significant number by now.

That's a good question, because every output/input address within a single transaction adds to the size of transaction, so it's true that very small amounts of bitcoins might cost more to move than their own worth. I don't know how transaction size is calculated, but it's possible to determine the threshold amount of bitcoins in an address after which it becomes pointless to move it. But it's still possible to move them if you send more coins to this address/wallet, so they are not really lost, unlike coins whose owners can't get access to their private keys.

deisik

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Quote from: audaciousbeing on May 28, 2017, 07:39:36 AM

Quote from: European Central Bank on May 28, 2017, 07:32:53 AM

if we assume the fee situation doesn't improve, and it may never, how many coins are stuck in addresses that can't even fund their own movement? it must be adding up to quite a significant number by now.

This should not even be a subject of discussion because I don't understand how I won't be able to fund my transfer to another place that I wanted. I would rather go ahead and buy more in other to try again

So you would buy coins just to move the dust from your wallet?

I don't really think it is economically feasible, but more power to you anyway. By the way, kudos to the OP, this idea has never entered my mind, though I don't think either that the amount should be great. By definition this dust shouldn't exceed the size of fees as of today, and there are not so many Bitcoin holders to make this into a great amount cumulatively. For example, I have around 0.0009 BTC left in an exchange account, and I can't even sell these "monies" because the minimal order is 0.001 BTC

Red-Apple

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someone who bought bitcoin before has not bought <0.0007BTC so he has more than enough to combine with any small amount he may have in his wallet to spend them.
and those who get in now, know the situation and they don't buy small amounts such as <0.0007BTC.

in other words everyone who has bitcoin has more than fee amount, and you combine the outputs and spend that dust easily with a little fee because you are sending one transaction containing more than one input.

Quote from: Flyyyy on May 28, 2017, 07:47:40 AM

The more people use bitcoin, the faster this problem will be solved.

[insert Futurama's Fry face here asking Not Sure if...]

Flyyyy

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This situation will be solved. The more people use bitcoin, the faster this problem will be solved. Bitcoin has already become very important for many. I am sure that the decision will soon be made

Quartx

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Quote from: European Central Bank on May 28, 2017, 07:32:53 AM

if we assume the fee situation doesn't improve, and it may never, how many coins are stuck in addresses that can't even fund their own movement? it must be adding up to quite a significant number by now.

Low fees can be fixed by child pays for parent tx with higher fees, miner has to confirm prior tx and the Childpayforparent tx to get both fees. A replace by fee tx can also be made if enabled.

Coins stuck in unconfirmed state for too long will simply stop being relayed after some time, over time they will simply drop out of the global mempool, its like the tx wasnt even made at all.

According to https://bitcoinfees.21.co/, seems like at least 100000 txes stuck under 120 sats/byte fees.

Quote from: audaciousbeing on May 28, 2017, 07:39:36 AM

This should not even be a subject of discussion because I don't understand how I won't be able to fund my transfer to another place that I wanted. I would rather go ahead and buy more in other to try again. But the issue I am currently facing that is related to this is that the fund is not even going back to the wallet for me to try again neither is it landing in the destination wallet as well.

Typical hooman, does not understand , refuses to understand, telling others not to understand. ROFL

Quote from: European Central Bank on May 28, 2017, 07:42:57 AM

sure, you can send money in to send it out again, but that's completely pointless because all you're doing is paying more to move less than what the fee cost anyway, plus you're adding another input to fund.

No offense, people who send low fees on purpose deserve it. People who unknowingly send txs with super low fees are usually more than willing to use the alternative methods to bump the fees.

European Central Bank

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Quote from: audaciousbeing on May 28, 2017, 07:39:36 AM

This should not even be a subject of discussion because I don't understand how I won't be able to fund my transfer to another place that I wanted.

sure, you can send money in to send it out again, but that's completely pointless because all you're doing is paying more to move less than what the fee cost anyway, plus you're adding another input to fund.

audaciousbeing

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Quote from: European Central Bank on May 28, 2017, 07:32:53 AM

if we assume the fee situation doesn't improve, and it may never, how many coins are stuck in addresses that can't even fund their own movement? it must be adding up to quite a significant number by now.

This should not even be a subject of discussion because I don't understand how I won't be able to fund my transfer to another place that I wanted. I would rather go ahead and buy more in other to try again. But the issue I am currently facing that is related to this is that the fund is not even going back to the wallet for me to try again neither is it landing in the destination wallet as well.

Topic: how many unspendable bitcoins are there? (Read 1084 times)