How much money is needed to manipulate Bitcoin's price by 1%? - page 2.

slyfox

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Quote from: davis196 on November 30, 2017, 05:39:54 AM

Quote from: Kakmakr on November 30, 2017, 01:53:50 AM

Has anyone calculated how much money it would take to shift the Bitcoin price with 1% in any direction? ? Can one of the Bitcoin whales comment on that?

I know you have to do this on several exchanges to have a better affect, but I am just curious. We have seen some pretty huge spikes and dumps lately and I am just curious to know what kind of money are needed to manipulate the price.

Let's just have a friendly discussion without going into too much detail and reveal how easy or difficult this is and how much it will cost to do that. < $1000 spikes in the price in one day, must take a lot of money? >

A few billion US dollars for sure,but it`s not about how much money you have to put into this.The important thing is to spread rumors around the majority of the cryptocurrency traders about the future bitcoin price.
The people just have to believe that the price will hit the moon next week,and they will start buying.
Anyway,it`s not that easy to manipulate the market like 2-3 years ago.

It needs to be less than that with a market cap of 184 billion dollars the 1% of that is 1.84 billion dollars, obviously if you have that you can manipulate the direction of the market up or down but in my opinion you only need a few hundred millions to create a downtrend or uptrend and after that traders and speculators will do the rest.

ArnoldChippy

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Quote from: LuanX3 on November 30, 2017, 06:57:16 AM

Nowadays, you need a lot. Probably you would be spending millions of dollars just to do it without losing money. You would have to buy and sell bitcoins not only in just one exchange but in multiple ones just to move the price by yourself. It's not impossible to do, since likely there are hundreds of companies that have that much money to do so. Heck, even a medium sized bank can even buy all bitcoins right now.

Yes that is right that with the passage of time now it is becoming difficult to manipulate the price of bitcoin. I think it was more easy when the bitcoin users were not so much in number now now as people are entering in the world of bitcoin and they are also investing good amount of their money there. Therefore i think it is now not so easy to manipulate the price of bitcoin.

Hydrogen

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That's a good question. To move the price 1% downwards: adding buy orders on exchanges (price * quantity) from the highest buy order, to the buy order 1% below current price, could yield a decent estimate. That sum averaged across whichever exchanges factor into the "current bitcoin price".

To move the price 1% upwards: it would be the inverse opposite. Adding sell orders (price * quantity) from the lowest price to 1% above the current price would yield a decent estimate.

Bitcotalk

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Quote from: Kakmakr on November 30, 2017, 01:53:50 AM

Has anyone calculated how much money it would take to shift the Bitcoin price with 1% in any direction? ? Can one of the Bitcoin whales comment on that?

I know you have to do this on several exchanges to have a better affect, but I am just curious. We have seen some pretty huge spikes and dumps lately and I am just curious to know what kind of money are needed to manipulate the price.

Let's just have a friendly discussion without going into too much detail and reveal how easy or difficult this is and how much it will cost to do that. < $1000 spikes in the price in one day, must take a lot of money? >

I don’t think this has anything to do with how much people are Investing into the cryptocurrency, I believe it has to do with the devs and the people in charge of the blockchain. They can set it at any price as far as investments are coming in.

Just take a look at Ethereum and BCH, that will explain everything to you. BCH has the highest price rate but a lower market cap, while Ethereum has a bigger market cap and a low price rate. The decision is made by the devs. That’s it!

Idrisu

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Quote from: Kakmakr on November 30, 2017, 01:53:50 AM

Has anyone calculated how much money it would take to shift the Bitcoin price with 1% in any direction? ? Can one of the Bitcoin whales comment on that?

I know you have to do this on several exchanges to have a better affect, but I am just curious. We have seen some pretty huge spikes and dumps lately and I am just curious to know what kind of money are needed to manipulate the price.

Let's just have a friendly discussion without going into too much detail and reveal how easy or difficult this is and how much it will cost to do that. < $1000 spikes in the price in one day, must take a lot of money? >

I think this is going to be difficult, as it will take you to operate in all the major exchange before you can achieve that. Those that has big investment in bitcoin do always come together before you see a huge dump like what happened yesterday! The whales know there game and is not as you may think that they operate. Manipulate bitcoin as you know is what is discouraged big investors to invest in bitcoin because they will find it difficult as the whales are always there to manipulating the price to their favor.

Kakmakr

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on November 30, 2017, 05:52:11 PM

Quote from: Kakmakr on November 30, 2017, 01:53:50 AM

Has anyone calculated how much money it would take to shift the Bitcoin price with 1% in any direction? ? Can one of the Bitcoin whales comment on that?

I know you have to do this on several exchanges to have a better affect, but I am just curious. We have seen some pretty huge spikes and dumps lately and I am just curious to know what kind of money are needed to manipulate the price.

Let's just have a friendly discussion without going into too much detail and reveal how easy or difficult this is and how much it will cost to do that. < $1000 spikes in the price in one day, must take a lot of money? >

There's is no mathematical formula that can give answer to this question, because it always depends on Bitcoin's market depth. If you are familiar with trading, you know that order book structure looks like slopes with "walls" - so this means that it might be easy to move the price by 1%, but moving it by 20% would require much more than just 20 times the amount of moving it by 1%. But it is also more complicated than that, because orders can be cancelled at any time or the new ones can be placed instantly, and it can make it harder or easier to manipulate the price. Price manipulators often employ additional tactics like spreading FUD, false rumors, using shills and so on.

This makes sense, but there should be some "magic" some of money that would be needed to manipulate any commodity or market, depending on it's size. A few years ago {2014} a trader called BearWhale, sold 30,000 Bitcoin all at once at a price of $300 per coin (or $9 million in total) and this halted all progress. We had to break down that wall, to progress further.

So there are some "magic" numbers to work with, if you plan to disrupt trade or to halt growth and to manipulate the Bitcoin price. ^smile^

https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-whales-and-how-they-make-market-waves/

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Quote from: hiscall on November 30, 2017, 05:21:16 AM

we talk about small market about 160k BTC so you need 1-3k bitcoin and can move price up/down .

it is about 10,000,000$ or 30,000,000$

oh, you live in a world where people have 100x more money than what you wrote. It's not like one man has 1% and can manipilate, there is a need of cooperation and a lot of dirty work. Just imagine, any poor country has possibility to become 100x rich by buying and manipulating but nothing is hidden, no one gives possibility one man to do everything on his/her own, it's big and wide business.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: Kakmakr on November 30, 2017, 01:53:50 AM

Has anyone calculated how much money it would take to shift the Bitcoin price with 1% in any direction? ? Can one of the Bitcoin whales comment on that?

I know you have to do this on several exchanges to have a better affect, but I am just curious. We have seen some pretty huge spikes and dumps lately and I am just curious to know what kind of money are needed to manipulate the price.

Let's just have a friendly discussion without going into too much detail and reveal how easy or difficult this is and how much it will cost to do that. < $1000 spikes in the price in one day, must take a lot of money? >

There's is no mathematical formula that can give answer to this question, because it always depends on Bitcoin's market depth. If you are familiar with trading, you know that order book structure looks like slopes with "walls" - so this means that it might be easy to move the price by 1%, but moving it by 20% would require much more than just 20 times the amount of moving it by 1%. But it is also more complicated than that, because orders can be cancelled at any time or the new ones can be placed instantly, and it can make it harder or easier to manipulate the price. Price manipulators often employ additional tactics like spreading FUD, false rumors, using shills and so on.

BTCMILLIONAIRE

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Quote from: LuanX3 on November 30, 2017, 06:57:16 AM

Nowadays, you need a lot. Probably you would be spending millions of dollars just to do it without losing money. You would have to buy and sell bitcoins not only in just one exchange but in multiple ones just to move the price by yourself. It's not impossible to do, since likely there are hundreds of companies that have that much money to do so. Heck, even a medium sized bank can even buy all bitcoins right now.

I would be surprised if million dollar orders even dented the market at this point...

LuanX3

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Nowadays, you need a lot. Probably you would be spending millions of dollars just to do it without losing money. You would have to buy and sell bitcoins not only in just one exchange but in multiple ones just to move the price by yourself. It's not impossible to do, since likely there are hundreds of companies that have that much money to do so. Heck, even a medium sized bank can even buy all bitcoins right now.

Mark Promo

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I see no point in trying to manipulate the price of bitcoin within 1%
Its price changes during the day by 5-10% and this is not the limit. Therefore, if you want to slightly influence, you will not be able to appreciate it.

pitrucha

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I bet that some banks and biggest exchanges already tried to calculate it. However bitcoin is veeery wild and young market so it's unlikely that someone got the right equation.

BTCMILLIONAIRE

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Quote from: meer45 on November 30, 2017, 03:35:37 AM

I'm trying to think of possible ways to calculate this, but I can't come up with anything. I think it hasn't only got to do with how much money you have, but also with how much influence you have in different exchanges. But how many exchanges do you have to influence to trigger a pseudo-panic, propelling people to sell? And how do you coordinate the timing? The financial aspect of this question is one thing, but I can't wrap my head around the logistics of this as well.

The logistics are the actual problem of figuring this out in any applicable way. Otherwise you'd just snag up or release 1% of the supply and get a proportional price response. Once you have to take multiple market places with different order books etc. into account things get out of hand very quickly though.

Has anybody actually worked this out in public? I'm sure some people or funds have done experiments on top of theorizing...

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It's too risky we never know how many people are going to throw their money at the Exchange.
this causes the value of Bitcoin difficult to determine. I believe there are people who do that there, manipulating the price with their money.

Opquar

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The bitcoin market is speculative so I doubt this can ever be answered. What we know for sure is that slightly sharp drops can trigger a chain of people dumping.

davis196

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Quote from: Kakmakr on November 30, 2017, 01:53:50 AM

Has anyone calculated how much money it would take to shift the Bitcoin price with 1% in any direction? ? Can one of the Bitcoin whales comment on that?

I know you have to do this on several exchanges to have a better affect, but I am just curious. We have seen some pretty huge spikes and dumps lately and I am just curious to know what kind of money are needed to manipulate the price.

Let's just have a friendly discussion without going into too much detail and reveal how easy or difficult this is and how much it will cost to do that. < $1000 spikes in the price in one day, must take a lot of money? >

A few billion US dollars for sure,but it`s not about how much money you have to put into this.The important thing is to spread rumors around the majority of the cryptocurrency traders about the future bitcoin price.
The people just have to believe that the price will hit the moon next week,and they will start buying.
Anyway,it`s not that easy to manipulate the market like 2-3 years ago.

hiscall

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we talk about small market about 160k BTC so you need 1-3k bitcoin and can move price up/down .

it is about 10,000,000$ or 30,000,000$

Laland

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It might be hard if a corporation could team up with many corporation, then it would be possible they can control the price. But even so, money wont go to just one entity. Even if a country would invest in bitcoin, it is not easy for them to control the price just by mere possession of thousands of bitcoin.

meer45

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I'm trying to think of possible ways to calculate this, but I can't come up with anything. I think it hasn't only got to do with how much money you have, but also with how much influence you have in different exchanges. But how many exchanges do you have to influence to trigger a pseudo-panic, propelling people to sell? And how do you coordinate the timing? The financial aspect of this question is one thing, but I can't wrap my head around the logistics of this as well.

Kakmakr

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Has anyone calculated how much money it would take to shift the Bitcoin price with 1% in any direction? ? Can one of the Bitcoin whales comment on that?

I know you have to do this on several exchanges to have a better affect, but I am just curious. We have seen some pretty huge spikes and dumps lately and I am just curious to know what kind of money are needed to manipulate the price.

Let's just have a friendly discussion without going into too much detail and reveal how easy or difficult this is and how much it will cost to do that. < $1000 spikes in the price in one day, must take a lot of money? >

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