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Topic: How to attack Bitcoin mining? - page 2. (Read 2720 times)

legendary
Activity: 1138
Merit: 1001
August 18, 2014, 03:05:57 PM
#10
Quote
Step 1)  Buy 3% of the hash power (secretly)
Step 2)  Set up a mining pool that merge mines Namecoin (or other alts) and auto sells for BTC, thus charging a negative fee
Step 3)  Once your pool has enough hash power (3-4%), point your secret hash power at top mining pool
Step 4)  Don't submit winning hashes, reducing the REVENUE of competitors by 3%
Step 5)  Continue to subsidize your pool with BTC earned from competitors pools

Yes. It is possible.
But what it the long-time expected result?
Do you want to gain all 21m bitcoins?

OK, I suggest another idea:
1) Lets create a fork with 100% premine.
2) Profit!
Voila! You have all hash power and all coins without any initial spendings.
----
Update: what country are you from? compare your steps 1...5 with the history of your country

No, I think the result is either to do a 51% attack on Bitcoin or build a big mining pool like Ghash, for profit, from a small start using this tactic. 

Previously I'd been lead to believe someone would have to get control of 51% of the hashing power which is very expensive.
The above example makes it seem you could achieve the same result with 3/4% of the hashing power in a fairly short period of time.
Which is why I'd like to debunk it.

(I don't get the country analogy, sounds interesting, but it went over my head I'm afraid.)
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1019
August 18, 2014, 02:54:55 PM
#9
Quote
Step 1)  Buy 3% of the hash power (secretly)
Step 2)  Set up a mining pool that merge mines Namecoin (or other alts) and auto sells for BTC, thus charging a negative fee
Step 3)  Once your pool has enough hash power (3-4%), point your secret hash power at top mining pool
Step 4)  Don't submit winning hashes, reducing the REVENUE of competitors by 3%
Step 5)  Continue to subsidize your pool with BTC earned from competitors pools

Yes. It is possible.
But what it the long-time expected result?
Do you want to gain all 21m bitcoins?

OK, I suggest another idea:
1) Lets create a fork with 100% premine.
2) Profit!
Voila! You have all hash power and all coins without any initial spendings.
----
Update: what country are you from? compare your steps 1...5 with the history of your country
legendary
Activity: 1138
Merit: 1001
August 18, 2014, 02:42:48 PM
#8

Oh and withholding shares can be be detected with some smart heuristics.

That sounds like it may be an answer, why this can't work thanks!


I asked about the 'smart heuristics' on the BitShares forum scorchingsun,


If you divide your attack hash power among 1000 accounts, then the probability that any one of those accounts would find a block in a given a given year is effectively 0.  No way to distinguish "unlucky" from "withholding" without a large enough sample size.   Keep the accounts small enough and you will be undetectable.   (Sybil Attack)

If someone like BCX, who seems to know his stuff, could give me a simple answer why this attack wouldn't work I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!
sr. member
Activity: 243
Merit: 250
August 18, 2014, 02:01:53 PM
#7
I highly suggest you talk to someone with a clue, seriously.


~BCX~

You are so nice.
legendary
Activity: 1138
Merit: 1001
August 18, 2014, 02:00:53 PM
#6
Do you even have the slightest idea about how important Bitcoin Mining!!! and you want to attack it!!! Why!!!

I don't want to attack it! Half my alt-coin investment is in Bitcoin! However if someone says it may be possible to attack Bitcoin with 3/4% of the hashing power, I'd like to understand why it's wrong.

To me it seemed like, (To keep the numbers simple)...

----
- If there were a $1 Billion in new coins made a year then a pool with 30% hash power could expect to earn $300 million in revenue.

- However Bitcoin margins are tight. How tight? I don't know but I doubt they're making more than $15-30 million profit.

- If 3% secret hash power (or 10% of the pool) was not submitting winning hashes, it would take $30 million of revenue from them, making them unprofitable.

- As you're part of their pool though you would still receive a 97% payout,  $27 million. So you may be at a loss too but only a $1 million or two and for that you get to make the main mining pool unprofitable.

- Hashers would leave the main unprofitable pool for the one a bad intentioned person controls, which could then easily accumulate 51% hashing power.
----

Oh and withholding shares can be be detected with some smart heuristics.

That sounds like it may be an answer, why this can't work thanks!
newbie
Activity: 6
Merit: 0
August 18, 2014, 01:57:40 PM
#5
That strategy isn't that bad, actually! No wait, it is! Your whole plan fails due to the fact that you only mine looking for a solution for the pool's address! Withholding the winning shares will hurt the pool, but you can't subsidize anything with that.
Oh and withholding shares can be be detected with some smart heuristics.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
AltoCenter.com
August 18, 2014, 01:50:10 PM
#4
Do you even have the slightest idea about how important Bitcoin Mining!!! and you want to attack it!!! Why!!!
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
August 18, 2014, 01:41:47 PM
#3
That's something like: how to get rich
1) Use time machine to go back in time
2) Buy BTC
3) sell in 2020.
In theory it works, but in reality not really.
How about the person who posted it in the forum tries it and see what happens.
legendary
Activity: 1210
Merit: 1024
August 18, 2014, 01:22:26 PM
#2
I highly suggest you talk to someone with a clue, seriously.


~BCX~
legendary
Activity: 1138
Merit: 1001
August 18, 2014, 01:17:31 PM
#1
I'm not that technical. But I've seen this approach being discussed on the BitShares forum as perhaps a weakness of POW.
Would this work, is this a threat at all?

Step 1)  Buy 3% of the hash power (secretly)
Step 2)  Set up a mining pool that merge mines Namecoin (or other alts) and auto sells for BTC, thus charging a negative fee
Step 3)  Once your pool has enough hash power (3-4%), point your secret hash power at top mining pool
Step 4)  Don't submit winning hashes, reducing the REVENUE of competitors by 3%
Step 5)  Continue to subsidize your pool with BTC earned from competitors pools

Result: Competitors pools become unprofitable and your pool is the only profitable option, your pool gets 51%

Step 6) Randomly Orphan blocks produced by other pools (cutting into their profits more, increasing your hash power further as people are forced to join your pool or eat losses on their hardware investment)

The cost of the attack is an order of magnitude cheaper than buying 51% hash power and assumes only that a large number of miners are in this to earn profits today and not to hold BTC.   You appeal to their short-term greed, their thin margins, or their cash flow constraints to force them to join you to avoid losses.  

The only way to combat this is to have 51% of the hash power in private pools.

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