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Topic: How to transfer USD from btc-e.com to Indian bank? (Read 1989 times)

sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252
My answer was to the  earlier question why btc-e can transfer money but not paxum or payoneer, BTC-e does not have operations  in India, but can do international transfers. any company can do a wire transfer into india. but for companies like paxum or payoneer to be able to take payments from Inidans they need a business to be  setup in India, which would mean they would need to abide by the RBI rules. For e.g. just like ebay can operate in india, abiding by the RBI rules.

The point being : one is not allowed to hold funds in online wallet accounts unless it is permitted by the RBI. When you talk about any "company" being able to wire transfer into India , yes it sure can. But do you think BTC-e will be liable for any wrong doing ? Of course not it will all come down on the individual doing the wire transfer in the first place. There is a reason RBI does not allow people to hold online wallets in services like paxum and payoneer. I'm sure the same principles apply to a btc-e account too, since it is an online account held under your name/pseudonym without any AML/KYC procedures being followed.

That you can prove that these funds are/were legitimate is another story in itself. Of course I do not agree with the RBI guidelines, since its just under the pretext of them not being able to follow the money trail. They should allow such accounts to be held. But then again that's another story in itself.

Again I am open to being corrected. Sorry if this is getting too long.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 501
Cypherpunk and full-time CryptoAnarchist

Payment systems overall dont work in india except Credit Cards. (Talking on a global scale).

dont know the answer to the second part of the question, but it could be a company policy they have to operate in those countries where they are allowed to work according to their business policies.

I have tried to get an account with payoneer myself and the option of India was missing from the list of countries in the sign up form. When I tried to contact them they said it was due to regulations of RBI that they could not operate. Similar with paxum and other such service providers I have heard/read on the net. So its definitely not due to their individual business policies.

My answer was to the  earlier question why btc-e can transfer money but not paxum or payoneer, BTC-e does not have operations  in India, but can do international transfers. any company can do a wire transfer into india. but for companies like paxum or payoneer to be able to take payments from Inidans they need a business to be  setup in India, which would mean they would need to abide by the RBI rules. For e.g. just like ebay can operate in india, abiding by the RBI rules.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252

Payment systems overall dont work in india except Credit Cards. (Talking on a global scale).

dont know the answer to the second part of the question, but it could be a company policy they have to operate in those countries where they are allowed to work according to their business policies.

I have tried to get an account with payoneer myself and the option of India was missing from the list of countries in the sign up form. When I tried to contact them they said it was due to regulations of RBI that they could not operate. Similar with paxum and other such service providers I have heard/read on the net. So its definitely not due to their individual business policies.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 501
Cypherpunk and full-time CryptoAnarchist
Quote
Doesn't the USD held in a BTC-e account come under that ? Isn't that fixed value. Also can you point me to where it does say that its fixed value because look below.

Also what does this line mean then in this context ?

No because BTC-e is not a Indian company. the laws apply to India only.

Quote
PS: Do we have a legality thread for BTC ? I mean besides the 2 interpretations of Vijayshanker and CIS ... if not then maybe we should have one and all of us can be devil's advocate and try to find faults in such situation from a legal perspective. Maybe it will just be a good excercise in giving clarity. Or maybe I just don't understand law Cheesy

This  has been  extensively discussed in the early days of the Indian subforum,

So why do you think payment systems like payoneer and paxum don't work in India ? if your allowed to have funds in them then what stops those companies ? RBI

Payment systems overall dont work in india except Credit Cards. (Talking on a global scale).

dont know the answer to the second part of the question, but it could be a company policy they have to operate in those countries where they are allowed to work according to their business policies.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252
Quote
Doesn't the USD held in a BTC-e account come under that ? Isn't that fixed value. Also can you point me to where it does say that its fixed value because look below.

Also what does this line mean then in this context ?

No because BTC-e is not a Indian company. the laws apply to India only.

Quote
PS: Do we have a legality thread for BTC ? I mean besides the 2 interpretations of Vijayshanker and CIS ... if not then maybe we should have one and all of us can be devil's advocate and try to find faults in such situation from a legal perspective. Maybe it will just be a good excercise in giving clarity. Or maybe I just don't understand law Cheesy

This  has been  extensively discussed in the early days of the Indian subforum,

So why do you think payment systems like payoneer and paxum don't work in India ? if your allowed to have funds in them then what stops those companies ? RBI
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 501
Cypherpunk and full-time CryptoAnarchist
Quote
Doesn't the USD held in a BTC-e account come under that ? Isn't that fixed value. Also can you point me to where it does say that its fixed value because look below.

Also what does this line mean then in this context ?

No because BTC-e is not a Indian company. the laws apply to India only.

Quote
PS: Do we have a legality thread for BTC ? I mean besides the 2 interpretations of Vijayshanker and CIS ... if not then maybe we should have one and all of us can be devil's advocate and try to find faults in such situation from a legal perspective. Maybe it will just be a good excercise in giving clarity. Or maybe I just don't understand law Cheesy

This  has been  extensively discussed in the early days of the Indian subforum,
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252
Quote
It does not come under prepaid regulations as prepaid solutions are defined with a fixed value on the device/ Card.

Doesn't the USD held in a BTC-e account come under that ? Isn't that fixed value. Also can you point me to where it does say that its fixed value because look below.

Also what does this line mean then in this context ?

Quote
The value stored on such instruments represents the value paid for by the holder, by cash, by debit to a bank account, or by credit card

PS: Do we have a legality thread for BTC ? I mean besides the 2 interpretations of Vijayshanker and CIS ... if not then maybe we should have one and all of us can be devil's advocate and try to find faults in such situation from a legal perspective. Maybe it will just be a good excercise in giving clarity. Or maybe I just don't understand law Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1000
Landscaping Bitcoin for India!
From the guideline :

Quote
2.2 Holder: Individuals/Organizations who acquire prepaid payment instruments for purchase of goods and services.

So its not just businesses. That's the thing with btc and the like .. its quite murky to interpret it legally until there are clarifications from the RBI itself. All the interpretations that have been put forth till now have not been tested in a court of law. That's why I am a bit hesitant about the whole thing.

The thing is that BTC is not prepaid.

Again from the guidelines :
Quote
2.3 Prepaid Payment Instruments: Prepaid payment instruments are payment instruments that facilitate purchase of goods and services against the value stored on such instruments. The value stored on such instruments represents the value paid for by the holder, by cash, by debit to a bank account, or by credit card. The Prepaid instruments can be issued as smart cards, magnetic stripe cards, internet accounts, internet wallets, mobile accounts, mobile wallets, paper vouchers and any such instruments which can be used to access the prepaid amount (collectively called Payment Instruments hereafter).

So when you say "The thing is that BTC is not prepaid." (again one could possibly contest that too) .. what you are forgetting is that the amount held at BTC-e might qualify to be so.

Again I am not legal expert but have tried to look into this as closely as possible (not claiming authority over the subject). Maybe this thread might benefit others.

It does not come under prepaid regulations as prepaid solutions are defined with a fixed value on the device/ Card.
newbie
Activity: 54
Merit: 0
Can I use international bank wire, what is SWIFT/ABA?

If you want to transfer money in your account use paypal
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252
How much you want to transfer? I can buy your USD codes and give you INR in any bank account.

+1 works for me, others who want the same can avail these codes; and we can save on fee(s)

Nice work  .... i think such a thing will save many others the effort of doing it through a bank - which sounds not so convincing for now.

Sr trusted members can act escrow perhaps .. so the deals can be smoother.
member
Activity: 87
Merit: 10
How much you want to transfer? I can buy your USD codes and give you INR in any bank account.

+1 works for me, others who want the same can avail these codes; and we can save on fee(s)
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 501
Cypherpunk and full-time CryptoAnarchist
How much you want to transfer? I can buy your USD codes and give you INR in any bank account.

+1
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
How much you want to transfer? I can buy your USD codes and give you INR in any bank account.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252
From the guideline :

Quote
2.2 Holder: Individuals/Organizations who acquire prepaid payment instruments for purchase of goods and services.

So its not just businesses. That's the thing with btc and the like .. its quite murky to interpret it legally until there are clarifications from the RBI itself. All the interpretations that have been put forth till now have not been tested in a court of law. That's why I am a bit hesitant about the whole thing.

The thing is that BTC is not prepaid.

Again from the guidelines :
Quote
2.3 Prepaid Payment Instruments: Prepaid payment instruments are payment instruments that facilitate purchase of goods and services against the value stored on such instruments. The value stored on such instruments represents the value paid for by the holder, by cash, by debit to a bank account, or by credit card. The Prepaid instruments can be issued as smart cards, magnetic stripe cards, internet accounts, internet wallets, mobile accounts, mobile wallets, paper vouchers and any such instruments which can be used to access the prepaid amount (collectively called Payment Instruments hereafter).

So when you say "The thing is that BTC is not prepaid." (again one could possibly contest that too) .. what you are forgetting is that the amount held at BTC-e might qualify to be so.

Again I am not legal expert but have tried to look into this as closely as possible (not claiming authority over the subject). Maybe this thread might benefit others.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 501
Cypherpunk and full-time CryptoAnarchist
From the guideline :

Quote
2.2 Holder: Individuals/Organizations who acquire prepaid payment instruments for purchase of goods and services.

So its not just businesses. That's the thing with btc and the like .. its quite murky to interpret it legally until there are clarifications from the RBI itself. All the interpretations that have been put forth till now have not been tested in a court of law. That's why I am a bit hesitant about the whole thing.

The thing is that BTC is not prepaid.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252
From the guideline :

Quote
2.2 Holder: Individuals/Organizations who acquire prepaid payment instruments for purchase of goods and services.

So its not just businesses. That's the thing with btc and the like .. its quite murky to interpret it legally until there are clarifications from the RBI itself. All the interpretations that have been put forth till now have not been tested in a court of law. That's why I am a bit hesitant about the whole thing.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 501
Cypherpunk and full-time CryptoAnarchist
Can I use international bank wire, what is SWIFT/ABA?


Contact you bank to get that detail.

Isn't there a big chance he might get into trouble with FEMA/regulation stuff ? I don't think its a good idea to contact the bank .. instead why not convert it to btc and sell them off locally. That seems much safer.

He is only asking for the details. FEMA/regulation stuff would be applied if he is actually laundering money, as long as he is able to show how he got the BTC and how is is receiving the Fiat there is nothing illegal in that.

money laundering is mostly used to hide earnings and wealth from the authorities. If a person has money to hide and does not want to pay tax on that money he will use elaborate measures to clean that money. At this moment In India Bitcoins are impossible to be used as money laundering system because of the low volumes. (Volumes in india was always low, some where to about a few thousand BTC). Even at high Volume market, money laundering is impossible because of the volatility of the bitcoin. 


I don't think so , reason being one is not allowed to have an account like paypal unless one has linked their bank account to it. So in this case when one is selling it is selling for USD and I'm not sure if its legal to already have cash in there without having taken permission from the bank/authorities. Right now the bank might view it as an unauthorised channel/account where his funds are held.

Correct me if I am wrong.

TLDR : Only authorized entities are able to issue foriegn exchange under 4.2 here http://www.rbi.org.in/Scripts/bs_viewcontent.aspx?Id=1902 . Also there is a clause which says these institutions have to have an AML/KYC policy in place. BTC-e does not fall into either category.

The rules you are quoting applies to businesses that are running in india. Paypal is also in india and wants to run its business. so they have to follow what ever rules the RBI sets by them. However for a exchange like btc-e it is governed by the rules of the country it is registered in.

When some one sends money via wire transfer there is an electronic trail from the sender to the receiver. so getting money from btc-e can be proven from the money transfer. now on the BTC side, if the government wants to know where he got the btc from the BTC blockchain provides the transfer details.

Remember KYC is some thing companies need to follow. if a Indian company does not follow KYC rules in india they are liable to it, not the customer. If the customer is doing thing all legal he then cannot be charged for doing some thing legal. If the customer engages in illegal activities, the investigating authorities need to investigate it first and collect evidence before charging anyone of a crime. Corpus delicti applies like any other crime.

sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252
Can I use international bank wire, what is SWIFT/ABA?


Contact you bank to get that detail.

Isn't there a big chance he might get into trouble with FEMA/regulation stuff ? I don't think its a good idea to contact the bank .. instead why not convert it to btc and sell them off locally. That seems much safer.

He is only asking for the details. FEMA/regulation stuff would be applied if he is actually laundering money, as long as he is able to show how he got the BTC and how is is receiving the Fiat there is nothing illegal in that.

money laundering is mostly used to hide earnings and wealth from the authorities. If a person has money to hide and does not want to pay tax on that money he will use elaborate measures to clean that money. At this moment In India Bitcoins are impossible to be used as money laundering system because of the low volumes. (Volumes in india was always low, some where to about a few thousand BTC). Even at high Volume market, money laundering is impossible because of the volatility of the bitcoin. 


I don't think so , reason being one is not allowed to have an account like paypal unless one has linked their bank account to it. So in this case when one is selling it is selling for USD and I'm not sure if its legal to already have cash in there without having taken permission from the bank/authorities. Right now the bank might view it as an unauthorised channel/account where his funds are held.

Correct me if I am wrong.

TLDR : Only authorized entities are able to issue foriegn exchange under 4.2 here http://www.rbi.org.in/Scripts/bs_viewcontent.aspx?Id=1902 . Also there is a clause which says these institutions have to have an AML/KYC policy in place. BTC-e does not fall into either category.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 501
Cypherpunk and full-time CryptoAnarchist
Can I use international bank wire, what is SWIFT/ABA?


Contact you bank to get that detail.

Isn't there a big chance he might get into trouble with FEMA/regulation stuff ? I don't think its a good idea to contact the bank .. instead why not convert it to btc and sell them off locally. That seems much safer.

He is only asking for the details. FEMA/regulation stuff would be applied if he is actually laundering money, as long as he is able to show how he got the BTC and how is is receiving the Fiat there is nothing illegal in that.

money laundering is mostly used to hide earnings and wealth from the authorities. If a person has money to hide and does not want to pay tax on that money he will use elaborate measures to clean that money. At this moment In India Bitcoins are impossible to be used as money laundering system because of the low volumes. (Volumes in india was always low, some where to about a few thousand BTC). Even at high Volume market, money laundering is impossible because of the volatility of the bitcoin. 
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252
Can I use international bank wire, what is SWIFT/ABA?


Contact you bank to get that detail.

Isn't there a big chance he might get into trouble with FEMA/regulation stuff ? I don't think its a good idea to contact the bank .. instead why not convert it to btc and sell them off locally. That seems much safer.
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