Topic: How to value bitcoin bitmap ordinals and what do you think about them? - page 2. (Read 539 times)

victims can hand money to a scammer is not the same as junk meta data appended outside a txdata (outside being the ''witness" segregation) thuss not inside the txdata part, thus not of an output(destination)

when you learn that the ordinal THEORY is called a THEORY instead of proven fact then you realise you failed to debunk

the data is not part of an output of a destined owner (thus the theory is broke and debunked)

learn how bitcoin works.. like i said your half way through your adventure of learning why these ordinals junk is junk

If it can be exchanged for money it has value. Ordinals can be actively exchanged for money therefore they have value. Period. Full Stop. Your theory is debunked. Finito. EOF.

i can send you my crap[postal system]. but the junk memes of ordinals are not even set as part of an output of a tx, nor form part of the txid and thus merkle tree of a block header. thus have no security of bitcoins transfer process. thus unlike me posting a bag of crap to you the ordinal junk just sits as junk data appended to the creators metadata 'weight' of his tx.

It seems you didn’t dig too much yourself, first you only highlight the part that says WORTH totally ignoring the rest of the sentence, when actually the most important part are the last words: FOR WHICH IT CAN BE EXCHANGED

Your crap can’t be exchanged for 5k, therefore your price is incorrect, it doesn’t have value AT THAT PRICE. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value at all, there are plenty of scientific research facilities that would happily buy your crap for few bucks, so it actually it has some value.

When it comes to bitmaps they are actively exchanged, so there is no question that they have value. Full Stop.

something is WORTH..
which if CAN be exchanged.. not what it WILL be exchanged for.
(the parts you didnt dig too deep into)

learn other words like value vs premium.
cheap vs expensive
underpriced vs over priced.

a price is not simply its value

also i just went for a crap and put it in a bag. i price it at $/£5000 .. go on buy it. it has value in your mind
[gives you a few seconds to think]
see how your mind is now thinking my crap is not worth $/£5k.. and how i have over priced it

price is not value.. price can also be premium

lets take bitcoin..
for years i have never seen bitcoins "value" as the price. i see bitcoins value as an underlying number below market.. much like the value of retail products are not the sell price.
with bitcoin you have to look at the lowest acquisition cost on the planet of a period.. for instance right now its about $20k(efficient mining) 2022 was $15k 2021 was $10k even when the market was SPECULATING at a higher premium PRICE

when you look at the underlying basic efficient cost of making these junk memes. they are pennies, not thousands of dollars to dump the junk onto the blockchain...
then you have to take into account that they have no real ownership transfer claim system thats cryptographically proven.. (its just dead weight) and so by not even transferring technically to new owners, and only theoretically via junk theory... it has no value to new people.. just a cost to the creator and his dumb price.. both are not value.

it has a creation COST of pennies and a premium scam PRICE of $stupid.. but does not have VALUE

Actually I’m not half away anywhere, I always had my opinion formulated about this since the beginning. That doesn’t stop me from wanting to learn about the market and profit from it.

They are obviously not a scam, they are a legit form of technical stupidity that perhaps is so stupid that makes it a genius ideia. All of this perhaps because of the lack of innovation in the crypto world for a long time.

And by the way, having a price and actually be actively exchanged DOES MEAN it has value. I see lots of people here saying that “having price does not mean it has value” like they are Gandalf trying to be a wizard or something. Just no, anything that has a price and is actively traded HAS VALUE. Full stop.

Oxford dictionary for the word value: “1) how much something is worth in money or other goods for which it can be exchanged”, learn your language folks.

Also relevant, meaning of the word stupid: “1) behaviour that shows a lack of thought or good judgement“, exactly how ordinals were invented

bulista is at the mid stage of admitting they are stupid. give him another week and he will admit to the zero value.. much faster then other people that took 6 months to admit to the scam.. bulista is half way there
having a price does not mean something has value
handing someone funds does not mean you then own something

I'm not denying the fact that there's a market around it. I'm just arguing they're of zero value. Sure, they have a price, but I just cannot recognize the slightest value, and I will attempt to impose this reasoning to anyone who's found to be confused until someone convinces me otherwise. 

I cannot buy something that I don't buy in the first place. 

Not saying who doesn’t like ordinals are the bad guys at all, everybody is entitled to their view.

I just think it’s a bit naive to deny the fact that bitmaps/ordinals have value. To be honest they are the most stupid thing I have seen in the crypto world, the second most stupid thing are NFTs all together, but ordinals are on another level of stupidity. However I accept the fact that the market gives value to this junk and on top of that I want to understand how/why the market is valuing this.

Again, everything what I posted here was based on the market data analysis, so I’m not really imposing anything, it’s just how the market is behaving. It’s as stupid as the car number plates market, but hey if there is a slight chance that this is gonna be big in the future and you have the chance to participate in the early stages, why not right?

Only a fool would let this pass when there is a chance that this can become big and you can still get them for a price below $50. Decentraland land plots for example are trading with a floor price around $1000.

And so is 999998, and 999997, and 10, and e, and pi, and square root of 2; they are all unique and either rare or common, depending on how you look at them. 

And that's exactly why we can enforce our view upon others. Just as Ordinal fans do it in the opposite direction. I don't understand why you make it sound as if we are the bad guys who want to enforce the view that numbers are common, and not the others who want to enforce that numbers are rare.

Bro you are 100% correct about your vision as well as utility! Just tell me from which website one should buy bitmap ordinals??

In 1,000,000 numbers there are 45 repeating numbers, like 444, 111, 9999, 999999.

Same like numbers ending with 0 like 1000, 200000, 400000, they are also 45.

The direction the market is taking is clearly overvaluing these kind of rare numbers.

Now why people are perceiving these numbers as rare numbers that’s another story, perhaps because of the laziness of how the human brain works? It takes less brain processing power to read a number like 999999 than a number like 181735.

I don’t see this as art to be honest but something else: there are countries that have markets for car number plates, some numbers go to insane prices, and the same rules that apply in that market seem to apply on the bitmap market as well. Is that art? I don’t think so, people just want to be unique or show off something, not all collectables are art, uniqueness is not art. But uniqueness has a price.

A number like 999999 is unique/rare in human terms, not in mathematical terms. This market is human.

Reference: https://www.firstpost.com/explainers/most-noble-numbers-why-the-car-number-plate-p7-became-the-worlds-most-expensive-12437422.html#

there is price.. there is value.. there is values.. 3 different concepts

values.. is not a number, its a desire, emotion, dream, hope, want, feeling about something. usually based on what a person wants it for. wither to admire, show off or it has utility

value is numeric. usually its based on a underlying cost of production/acquisition plus a FAIR increase temptation to get a sell

price. is a number. more speculative it can be higher and be stupidly high(premium). or near value

mona lisa painting was not instantly valued at $xxmillion.. it took centuries(5 centuries infact) where each new owner added on their estimate of value+fair profit) and slowly over time it grew

people admire it because it truly is one of a kind. yep its not distributed over everyones node. the creator is dead so wont be making any other similar pieces of art.. yep most art only becomes valuable once an artist dies and will not create anything else again... unlike these ordinals junk where the same idiots bloat the blockchain with lots of similar things thinking they are worth a van-gogh/de-vinci/micheal-angelo
sorry but thats not how real art works nor economics

as for the underlying cost of creating a ordinals. its 1sat+txfee+few minutes of labour
but knowing they have no transfer security/ownership proof.. they have no value in selling.. becasue the recipient does not end up owning the piece of junk

if however the ordinal crew finally learned bitcoin to learn how transactions work to learn how to embed things properly within the bitcoin security of txid and merkle trees and blockhashes.. and also knew how to transfer data from one key to another within the outputs. then and only then would there be a real unscammed method of transfer thus a real market for it. which would take time to establish value by swapping hands multiple times to increase value with head hand

The question posed in the OP was:  (underline emphasis mine)


So I answered with the concepts I'm using and I gave my opinions.  Feel free to use your own criteria if you don't approve of mine.  

I personally think it's silly when some people think certain paintings are "priceless".  Where's the sense in that?  Clearly I'm just not an art guy.  I appreciate aesthetics can carry a price tag, but sometime it just goes too far.

Clear words on a clear topic.
Even though I don't think something needs utility to have value. But then again, it also depends on the definition of utility. The utility of art can be up to debate, but the value of *some* *real* art (whatever that means) cannot be debated imho.

Art can be created out of almost anything. Yes, even ordinals could be used to create art.
But as long as people love to speculate that some sheep may be willing to pay more than themselves for something as un-creative as number like 999999 or whatever, you won't need real art to fuel the market.
So right now, it's nothing more than a ponzi-like hype-train - as long as more people jump on without derailing that thing completely, it's all fun and games. In the end, a few will have profited from the gullibility of many, and many will have lost some substancial amounts of money and own a bunch of digital-void as compensation.

Personally, I see no use in the Ordinals bull crap, and I don't like them spamming the network and clogging the blocks. But they are a reality and we have to live with them. Hopefully those involved with this hype will realize it's useless and has no future. I am hoping it doesn't. I can't comment on the value of these things as I have never done any research on it nor do I plan to do it.

I am not for banning or somehow forking them out because that goes against the ethos of a network that should be against censorship. Let them ride the Ordinals hype wave and hopefully they will go away voluntarily.

Value doesn't require utility. There are many things that have no real utility but still have value. What is the utility of the Mona Lisa?

It's silly to argue that something has no value simply because it has no value to you.

It seems to me that you don't like ordinals and inscriptions because they don't fit your belief of what Bitcoin should be. Why not just say that instead of making these silly arguments about what should or should not have value.

Yep.  And out of those, I would describe the vast majority of them as "solutions looking for a problem".  No one actually needs those coins for anything, other than gambling with.  They don't have any real purpose.  They don't have any network effects or anything resembling a userbase.  You can't spend them on goods and services because there's no merchant acceptance.  They're just speculative playthings.  If people want to gamble on them, that's their prerogative.  But I wouldn't ascribe value to them.



Yes.  Things that have real-world utility and actually serve a purpose are often considered worthwhile inventions.  But this topic is about speculative playthings with no utility, no purpose.  Ergo, no value.


Incidentally, you did ask us what we think, so you have to accept that not everyone is going to be as excited about this stuff as you seem to be.  I'm not here to bolster anyone's confirmation bias.  I just call it like I see it.

value and price are not the same thing

many people can price any crap. doesnt mean it has value

when things in concepts of crypto currency dont even use proper proof of ownership/transfer nor get locked into a TXID which then becomes part of the merkle tree of a block.. then its not immutable. its prunable crap so does not even get locked into th security of blockchains.. thus not even secure or a token or any of the native features of what makes cryptocurrency special..
meta data appended to the end of a tx has no purpose or function and does not have the proper transfer/ownership security. so its junk

anyone can put a price on junk.. but its still valueless junk

dont be scammed into buying valueless junk

You rightly and correctly said it. Everyone here is getting technical around bitmap ordinals and not being humans. Being a human what you do with bitmap ordinals. Well you wish to join the ride and have a piece of it.. I've been looking for unclaimed bitmap ordinals and found out that all metaverse has been claimed. I wish if could have one! Alas!