Topic: How would Bitcoin handle TPS like Visa? (Read 1165 times)
It is important that we do scale Bitcoin directly as much as the technology will allow at the time by increasing the blocksize. If we do not do this Bitcoin will not be able to compete with alternative cryptocurrencies. My hope is that technological growth will be faster then adoption, especially considering that people will be free to use off chain solutions which will also take pressure off the main chain. If adoption does outstrip technological growth then people will simply move more traffic to off chain solutions and alternative cryptocurrencies. This is different to arbitrarily restricting the transaction volume now by not increasing the blocksize, that is a form of economic planning which is what Core calls a "fee market". There should be a free market for blockspace instead which would best reflect the technological limitations at any one time.
I think that Bitcoin will be able to scale to Visa scale levels over the long term, just by increasing the blocksize. It depends on the rate of technological progress. It might be twenty years or a hundred years but we will get their eventually. You could even say that Bitcoin is ahead of its time in terms of its technological demands.
Visa transaction capacity of 2015 achievable in 2115; this makes a lot of sense. 
Thank you for sharing this useful list. It will be of great use to me. I have just read the first pages and it looks like the best solution for Bitcoin right now. If this gets implemented into Bitcoin, it would improve it a lot in both transaction confirmation times and mainstream use. 
Essentially what LN enables you to do is have an theoretically infinite amount of transactions between you and another participant while requiring only 2 transactions on the blockchain (opening and closing the payment channel). The efficiency in comparison to transacting on the blockchain directly is huge. Additionally once you've set-up the channel (which takes around ~30 minutes now (3 confirmations)) your transactions are near instant. Yes to achieve that huge amount of transactions per second is impossible to achieve on chain.
Well technically we could achieve a much larger TPS than what we have today, however we'd have to sacrifice a lot of decentralization in order to get there. Even then, it is doubtful that we'd ever catch up with Visa. Whatever 'side' you're on, it's pretty hard to see how that could ever be achieved with on chain scaling. There'll have to be something second layer. Whether that'll ever be the lightning network or 21's solution or anyone else remains to be seen.
Yes to achieve that huge amount of transactions per second is impossible to achieve on chain.
Especially if you don't want to lose decentralization in terms of everyone being able to run a full node at home.
Therefore second layer implementations like LN, as you have already mentioned, will be needed.
They are not perfect.... just two weeks ago I had to make a payment to a mobile service provider and it took two days for the transaction to show on the service provider side. I still need to figure out
why that happened, but I had to make another cash payment at the retail shop for them to accept the payment. Once I did the cash payment, they were happy and they unblocked my account. Now
I have to reclaim the double payment from the mobile service provider, because the bank cannot reverse the transaction for some reason. Every system has it's flaws.
why that happened, but I had to make another cash payment at the retail shop for them to accept the payment. Once I did the cash payment, they were happy and they unblocked my account. Now
I have to reclaim the double payment from the mobile service provider, because the bank cannot reverse the transaction for some reason. Every system has it's flaws.
- Lightning network website
- Lightning-dev mailing list
- lightning-dev - IRC channel
- LN explained
Thank you for sharing this useful list. It will be of great use to me. I have just read the first pages and it looks like the best solution for Bitcoin right now. If this gets implemented into Bitcoin, it would improve it a lot in both transaction confirmation times and mainstream use.
I think that Bitcoin will be able to scale to Visa scale levels over the long term, just by increasing the blocksize. It depends on the rate of technological progress. It might be twenty years or a hundred years but we will get their eventually. You could even say that Bitcoin is ahead of its time in terms of its technological demands.
It reminds me a bit of some good computer games I like to play, that only run to its full potential ten years after it has been released, so that view distance, unit caps and all that good stuff can get maxed out and modded.
It reminds me a bit of some good computer games I like to play, that only run to its full potential ten years after it has been released, so that view distance, unit caps and all that good stuff can get maxed out and modded.
Will reading the whitepaper be enough?
No.If you would like to share some useful resources of information, I would greatly appreciate it.
- Lightning network website
- Lightning-dev mailing list
- lightning-dev - IRC channel
- LN explained
My personal favorite solution is altcoins that primarily are used either in a specific industry or a specific region.
Wouldn't it be easier if Bitcoin was primarily used everywhere? Constantly having to exchange currencies should be a thing of the past. Whatever 'side' you're on, it's pretty hard to see how that could ever be achieved with on chain scaling. There'll have to be something second layer. Whether that'll ever be the lightning network or 21's solution or anyone else remains to be seen.
My personal favorite solution is altcoins that primarily are used either in a specific industry or a specific region.
e.g. when I get ready to travel to Mexico I could go to an exchange to buy Cucaracha Coins that vendors in Mexico accept and then when I return home, I can exchange what I didn't spend back to BTC (or whatever crypto merchants where I live tend to accept)
I don't believe there needs to be one coin that is the only choice for everyone everywhere, and I think that is dangerous even as it creates a single point of economic failure.
But doesn't the Lightning Network affect Bitcoin's security as well? I am not really sure but I have a bad feeling about it.
It does not do that at all. Transacting on the LN should be faster, cheaper and secure. Faster as in near instant (once a channel has been created). You definitely need to do more reading in regards to it. There are a few engineering challanges until it is ready but the development has been constantly progressing.I guess I need to research more about the Lightning Network. Will reading the whitepaper be enough? If you would like to share some useful resources of information, I would greatly appreciate it. Hope the development to complete LN would not take too long
But doesn't the Lightning Network affect Bitcoin's security as well? I am not really sure but I have a bad feeling about it.
It does not do that at all. Transacting on the LN should be faster, cheaper and secure. Faster as in near instant (once a channel has been created). You definitely need to do more reading in regards to it. There are a few engineering challanges until it is ready but the development has been constantly progressing. This is why solutions such as the LN are needed.
But doesn't the Lightning Network affect Bitcoin's security as well? I am not really sure but I have a bad feeling about it. For Bitcoin to handle more TPS I think there needs to be some serious development to be done, especially the security of the Bitcoin network. Just my opinion.
About Bitcoin's TPS, I think that it may reach out Visa's level if some improvements would be done to it. This could really happen in the future and thus Bitcoin would become mainstream
If we focus on scaling directly (block size limit) it will never come close. There are debates on the safety of 2-3-4 MB blocks (6 - 9 - 12 TPS on average). Visa handles 2000 TPS on average today. This is why solutions such as the LN are needed.Visa is also a solution. They could handle 2000 TPS valued in bitcoin.
About Bitcoin's TPS, I think that it may reach out Visa's level if some improvements would be done to it. This could really happen in the future and thus Bitcoin would become mainstream
If we focus on scaling directly (block size limit) it will never come close. There are debates on the safety of 2-3-4 MB blocks (6 - 9 - 12 TPS on average). Visa handles 2000 TPS on average today. This is why solutions such as the LN are needed. Sidechains are basically a mechanism with enables you to move your coins into another blockchain without the need of a third party or anything. This is done with a two-way-peg and you can move your coins back later. It is not easy to explain them in a very short way; this might help.
Thanks for the clarification. Based on what I have read, I guess that coins or protocol that is like a sidechain could be Omni (before was Mastercoin) Coins like Tether and Counterparty run on the same Bitcoin block chain.
About Bitcoin's TPS, I think that it may reach out Visa's level if some improvements would be done to it. This could really happen in the future and thus Bitcoin would become mainstream
read plenty of optimizations are possible that may put us on that visa level
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability
I was wondering if there could be a possibility of making Bitcoin handle TPS as fast an efficient as Visa? Perhaps, it could be achieved but I think that Bitcoin's security would be at risk don't you think?
Maybe this has something to do with a block size increase...
I would like to see your opinions about it.
Maybe this has something to do with a block size increase...
I would like to see your opinions about it.
You must be very confused. Bitcoin is a unit of account. Visa is a company offering settlement services. They offer no unit of account and their settlement could be done in any unit.
My understanding is that Visa processes thousands of transactions a second. I don't think bitcoin ever needs to do that for it to go mainstream. I think second level solutions like side chains can probabaly bring that kind of transactions processing to the masses. However I would like to see the mainchain be able to atleast keep pace with ACH which based on my research appears to do 500-700 TPS. I think that is the ballpark bitcoin should be in.
VISA's thousands of tx's per second is based on the combined total of ALL of their networks.. remember its not one network,but multiple networks.
EG Visa US is not the same network, database, settling system as Visa Europe.
so think of it this way. Visa US=bitcoin, Visa EU=litecoin, visa UK=ethereum, etc etc..
Not quite. If I goto the EU and want to use my visa I don't need a different card to use a different bank account. The networks may be different but I can transfer value from my bank account to any of them. There is no way to transfer value between different crypto currencies without a centralized third party involved like shapeshift.io
if you look at the mechanisms behind it. its not a visa terminal the retailer talks only to visa. its actually a local merchant account with a local bank.
EG worldpay, streamline, sagepay. which then talks to visa.
so imagine the retailers merchant account as a connection to the poloniex exchange where it then makes a request for its prefered currency.
where all the real transactions are stored in separate ledgers depending on the currency and the merchant account does the conversion.
Yes but the value is interchangeable via a centralized system ..Unless there was an easy - NON centeralized way to transfer value between altcoins the analogy doesn't really hold.
My understanding is that Visa processes thousands of transactions a second. I don't think bitcoin ever needs to do that for it to go mainstream. I think second level solutions like side chains can probabaly bring that kind of transactions processing to the masses. However I would like to see the mainchain be able to atleast keep pace with ACH which based on my research appears to do 500-700 TPS. I think that is the ballpark bitcoin should be in.
VISA's thousands of tx's per second is based on the combined total of ALL of their networks.. remember its not one network,but multiple networks.
EG Visa US is not the same network, database, settling system as Visa Europe.
so think of it this way. Visa US=bitcoin, Visa EU=litecoin, visa UK=ethereum, etc etc..
Not quite. If I goto the EU and want to use my visa I don't need a different card to use a different bank account. The networks may be different but I can transfer value from my bank account to any of them. There is no way to transfer value between different crypto currencies without a centralized third party involved like shapeshift.io
if you look at the mechanisms behind it. its not a visa terminal the retailer talks only to visa with. its actually a local merchant account with a local bank.
EG worldpay, streamline, sagepay. which then talks to visa.
so imagine the retailers merchant account as a connection to the poloniex exchange where it then makes a request for its prefered currency.
where all the real transactions are stored in separate ledgers depending on the currency and the merchant account does the conversion.
My understanding is that Visa processes thousands of transactions a second. I don't think bitcoin ever needs to do that for it to go mainstream. I think second level solutions like side chains can probabaly bring that kind of transactions processing to the masses. However I would like to see the mainchain be able to atleast keep pace with ACH which based on my research appears to do 500-700 TPS. I think that is the ballpark bitcoin should be in.
VISA's thousands of tx's per second is based on the combined total of ALL of their networks.. remember its not one network,but multiple networks.
EG Visa US is not the same network, database, settling system as Visa Europe.
so think of it this way. Visa US=bitcoin, Visa EU=litecoin, visa UK=ethereum, etc etc..
Not quite. If I goto the EU and want to use my visa I don't need a different card to use a different bank account. The networks may be different but I can transfer value from my bank account to any of them. There is no way to transfer value between different crypto currencies without a centralized third party involved like shapeshift.io
My understanding is that Visa processes thousands of transactions a second. I don't think bitcoin ever needs to do that for it to go mainstream. I think second level solutions like side chains can probabaly bring that kind of transactions processing to the masses. However I would like to see the mainchain be able to atleast keep pace with ACH which based on my research appears to do 500-700 TPS. I think that is the ballpark bitcoin should be in.
VISA's thousands of tx's per second is based on the combined total of ALL of their networks.. remember its not one network,but multiple networks.
EG Visa US is not the same network, database, settling system as Visa Europe.
so think of it this way. Visa US=bitcoin, Visa EU=litecoin, visa UK=ethereum, etc etc..
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