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Topic: Hypothetical Bitcoin clone except backed by gold - page 2. (Read 4498 times)

member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
Side-stepping the matrix | Bit by bit
I agree without this as a "feature" there could essentially be a bit-currency backed by the dollar, ie. the Bitdollar, for use in exactly the same secure, convenient, fast, cheap, online, and semi anonymous way as the Bitcoin, but exchangable for a dollar at your local bank and vice versa... and of course with value controlled by the value of the dollar

Yes the dollar could also be a possible way to back a Bitcoin-like currency. It would actually be easier to back with a dollar because instead of having to pay to store the gold backing the "goldcoins" you could earn interest storing the dollars that back your "bitdollars". I didn't want to use the dollar in my example of backing a Bitcoin clone-like currency because people would probably attack the dollar aspect instead of thinking about the concept of a Bitcoin clone being backed by something.

If the bitcoin-like currency had to be backed by anything, the dollar would pretty much be a bad idea. Why would you back a currency with another currency? An inflationary currency that's now only worth 4% of its original value, no less. Exchanging, say, a GBP for USD is one thing but you don't have one backing the other.

Also, if you're backing this new clone coin with gold, are you're suggesting a move towards centralization too? Who stores the gold? Who administers the auctions?
legendary
Activity: 1099
Merit: 1000
you still haven't answered the question about a centralized vulnerability of gold storage.

I agree there is a risk that the centralized backing may fail. There is definitely a risk. You may think it is a huge risk. I may think it is a manageable risk. However, I am not trying to argue the size of this risk. What I am trying to convey is that with Goldcoin there is at least a possibility that the goldcoins will be backed by gold. My point is that even a small probability of being backed by gold is better than a zero probability of being backed by gold.


You better back gold with bitcoins.

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
you still haven't answered the question about a centralized vulnerability of gold storage.

I agree there is a risk that the centralized backing may fail. There is definitely a risk. You may think it is a huge risk. I may think it is a manageable risk. However, I am not trying to argue the size of this risk. What I am trying to convey is that with Goldcoin there is at least a possibility that the goldcoins will be backed by gold. My point is that even a small probability of being backed by gold is better than a zero probability of being backed by gold.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
no i was referring to GoldMoney.  yes it hasn't "failed" in the traditional concept but its supposed economy is dead in the water as far as i'm concerned.

you still haven't answered the question about a centralized vulnerability of gold storage.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
If by 'backed by gold' you mean physical gold, then how would you propose funding the acquisition of any where near enough gold to be able to back the goldcoins?

Similar to Bitcoins, the largest number of Goldcoins that could ever exist would be 21,000,000. Since above I defined the exchange ratio to be 1000 goldcoins for an ounce of gold, the most gold that would ever be necessary is 21,000 ounces of gold which is just a small fraction of the amount of gold mined each year.



The success will depend on the "strength" of the backing, and this is not addressed in your system.

If someone wishes to attack the currency, the first place is to attack the backing.  So even if the backing hasn't failed yet, it stands to be very weak unless there is some mechanism to make it robust.  Weak backing does not deserve the term backing.



Figuring out how to set up anonymous, decentralized, guaranteed redemption is the hard part, not how to set up auctions and create the currency.

I agree that creating a good backing system is difficult, and I didn't address this issue because I am trying to convey a different point about the importance of backing. I also agree that the stronger the backing the better. This is precisely the point I am trying to convey, a stronger backing is better than a weaker backing and so even a weak backing is better than not having any backing at all.



That would mean that each bitcoin/goldcoin would have a fixed value and cannot rise in value as more people adopt it.

...

And question, how would you decide how much gold each coin should be worth?

The amount of gold the goldcoins could be redeemed for would be set at a fixed value at the launch of goldcoin. In my example implementation above, I picked 1000 goldcoins for an ounce of gold to be this fixed ratio. However, this is not the maximum value of goldcoins as it is only their minimum value. In other words, 1000 goldcoins gets you an ounce of gold, but an ounce of gold may not necessarily get you 1000 goldcoins.



Bitcoin is ok as it is, no backing is necessary. You are free to create your own goldcoin or such, good luck.

I don't plan to create Goldcoin. I just wanted to use it as a thought experiment to make a compelling case that a Bitcoin clone that is backed by something has the potential to eat Bitcoin's lunch. The reason I mention this isn't to cause fear, but rather to suggest that it may be possible to slightly tweak Bitcoin  so the current Bitcoin system could be backed by something. For example instead of giving the new bitcoins to miners who heat their homes with GPUs, you could sell the new bitcoins in an auction and use the proceeds to back bitcoins. In other words, instead of the proceeds of newly issued bitcoins going to pay electric bills and purchase CPUs which only benefit the Bitcoin users who like subsidized transaction fees, the new bitcoins could be sold and used to benefit Bitcoin users by backing their bitcoins.



kwhcoin: but what backs gold?

Two questions:

1. How do you want to guarantee redemption if there is no central responsible party (because if there were, it would not be decentralized)?
2. What is gold backed by?

I am assuming gold is backed by the many commodity uses for gold (i.e. gold is in cell phones, computers, automobiles, hospitals, and probably even GPUs, etc.)

The transaction system of Goldcoin would be identical to Bitcoin and therefore it would be just as decentralized. However, you are correct that the backing method I suggested would need to be run by a centralized responsible party.



Because of the security requirements it is very expensive to store gold. How will this be charged to the end user?

What if the backed gold is stolen? Isn't this simply a liability when compared to bitcoin?

Below are some excerpts from my original post that answer your two questions. The first excerpt addresses the gold storage issue with a 0.2% storage fee per year. The second excerpt addresses the failure scenario and how it is not a liability compared to Bitcoin.

“Lastly, anyone can redeem 1000 goldcoins at any time and receive the current value of an ounce of gold less a storage fee which would be around 0.2% per year starting from the launch of Goldcoin until the date the goldcoins are redeemed (i.e. if you redeemed your goldcoins in five years from the launch of Goldcoin you would have a little less than 1% deducted from what you got for redeeming your goldcoins).”

“However, in the disaster scenario where the Goldcoin system of auctioning goldcoins and redeeming goldcoins completely fails (i.e. government crackdown, gold gets stolen, etc.) then the backup plan could be to have Goldcoin automatically revert to the exact same system Bitcoin uses of awarding new coins to miners. In other words, the failure scenario for Goldcoin could be to revert to the Bitcoin system.”



you already have a representative failure of this concept; its called GoldMoney by James Turk.

i foresee a Bitcoin backed USD system in the long term.

Goldmoney has both a centralized backing system and a centralized transaction system. The Goldcoin system mentioned above would be different because it would have a decentralized transaction system identical to Bitcoin. Also, I don't think goldmoney has failed yet, and I believe you may be referring to e-gold as the digital gold currency that has failed due to a government crackdown.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
you already have a representative failure of this concept; its called GoldMoney by James Turk.

i foresee a Bitcoin backed USD system in the long term.
donator
Activity: 4760
Merit: 4323
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Sure, lets make it happen.  We'll store the gold at my house and I won't charge you anything.   Cool
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1022
No Maps for These Territories
Because of the security requirements it is very expensive to store gold. How will this be charged to the end user?

What if the backed gold is stolen? Isn't this simply a liability when compared to bitcoin?
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Two questions:

1. How do you want to guarantee redemption if there is no central responsible party (because if there were, it would not be decentralized)?
2. What is gold backed by?
legendary
Activity: 1099
Merit: 1000
The problem you run into is finding a trusted, centralized authority who would back the coin by gold - fail because you lose decentralization. Having individuals back it leaves you with no guarantee they will perform. At least with the current system, bitcoin has its own value based upon its unique features, qualities and benefits. These features, qualities and benefits are valued enough by people like me who will sell you their gold for your bitcoin.

Trader Steve
http://www.GoldStarBullion.com

Goldcoins would also have value based on the unique features, qualities and benefits of bitcoins because the hypothetical Goldcoin was designed to deliberately have those same features. Goldcoins would likely trade at values above their redeemable gold value. Goldcoins would just have an additional feature because goldcoins would be backed by gold.

The main criticism I am hearing about the Goldcoin concept is that the gold backing may fail. To me this is an admission that it would be good if the backing did not fail which means people have an intuitive sense that it is better to have backing than to not have backing. If the backing of goldcoins described above were somehow magically guaranteed, then would you prefer 10 goldcoins over 1 bitcoin?



Bitcoin is ok as it is, no backing is necessary. You are free to create your own goldcoin or such, good luck.


hero member
Activity: 523
Merit: 500
Some problems

That would mean that each bitcoin/goldcoin would have a fixed value and cannot rise in value as more people adopt it.
Ofcourse it could raise in value simply by adding more gold at a constant rate.

It would also mean that the value would be decided by the speculation in gold instead of reflecting how useful, adopted and good the bitcoin services are. Removing the very important incentive to create good services.

And question, how would you decide how much gold each coin should be worth?

But ofcourse, you are free to create such a coin.

You just need one of the worlds best securities.





member
Activity: 70
Merit: 18
The success will depend on the "strength" of the backing, and this is not addressed in your system.

If someone wishes to attack the currency, the first place is to attack the backing.  So even if the backing hasn't failed yet, it stands to be very weak unless there is some mechanism to make it robust.  Weak backing does not deserve the term backing.

Anything other than physical coins that have bullion value have a chance of failing, but some instruments are much stronger than others.  A personal check vs a cashier's check are worlds apart in terms of their strength.  Even though neither is absolute, I would want the system to be roughly as strong as a cashier's check in terms of the level of certainty that I'll be able to redeem it.

It is theoretically possible to make it decentralized using dead drops or if some anonymous trust mechanism can be strong enough.  I think this could be a fruitful direction of exploration.  Figuring out how to set up anonymous, decentralized, guaranteed redemption is the hard part, not how to set up auctions and create the currency.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
I did not read through all of it but was only curious about a few small things.
If by 'backed by gold' you mean physical gold, then how would you propose funding the acquisition of any where near enough gold to be able to back the goldcoins?  If you are just meaning to back the intrinsic value of goldcoins with price of gold then it would f....


nm, my head hurts and i don't really care, sorry. ;p left this here so others could see how dumb I was for attempting to contribute to something I spent 0 diligence on.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
so, bitcoin is like a failed goldcoin ... smart thinking   Roll Eyes

If Goldcoin should have its backing fail, then it would be possible to have it automatically switch to function exactly like Bitcoin which has no backing. The thought experiment of Goldcoin was designed to be a Bitcoin clone except for the tweak to allow it to be backed. Automatically undoing that tweak in an emergency situation of losing its backing could make it just like Bitcoin.


wrong- bitcoin is backed by time- literally the only constant/unchanging thing in the universe.

Time is relative...
mrb
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1028
kwhcoin: but what backs gold?
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
The problem you run into is finding a trusted, centralized authority who would back the coin by gold - fail because you lose decentralization. Having individuals back it leaves you with no guarantee they will perform. At least with the current system, bitcoin has its own value based upon its unique features, qualities and benefits. These features, qualities and benefits are valued enough by people like me who will sell you their gold for your bitcoin.

Trader Steve
http://www.GoldStarBullion.com

Goldcoins would also have value based on the unique features, qualities and benefits of bitcoins because the hypothetical Goldcoin was designed to deliberately have those same features. Goldcoins would likely trade at values above their redeemable gold value. Goldcoins would just have an additional feature because goldcoins would be backed by gold.

The main criticism I am hearing about the Goldcoin concept is that the gold backing may fail. To me this is an admission that it would be good if the backing did not fail which means people have an intuitive sense that it is better to have backing than to not have backing. If the backing of goldcoins described above were somehow magically guaranteed, then would you prefer 10 goldcoins over 1 bitcoin?
hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1007
"How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time..."
The problem you run into is finding a trusted, centralized authority who would back the coin by gold - fail because you lose decentralization. Having individuals back it leaves you with no guarantee they will perform. At least with the current system, bitcoin has its own value based upon its unique features, qualities and benefits. These features, qualities and benefits are valued enough by people like me who will sell you their gold for your bitcoin.

Trader Steve
http://www.GoldStarBullion.com
sr. member
Activity: 454
Merit: 250
so, bitcoin is like a failed goldcoin ... smart thinking   Roll Eyes

If Goldcoin should have its backing fail, then it would be possible to have it automatically switch to function exactly like Bitcoin which has no backing. The thought experiment of Goldcoin was designed to be a Bitcoin clone except for the tweak to allow it to be backed. Automatically undoing that tweak in an emergency situation of losing its backing could make it just like Bitcoin.


wrong- bitcoin is backed by time- literally the only constant/unchanging thing in the universe.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
so, bitcoin is like a failed goldcoin ... smart thinking   Roll Eyes

If Goldcoin should have its backing fail, then it would be possible to have it automatically switch to function exactly like Bitcoin which has no backing. The thought experiment of Goldcoin was designed to be a Bitcoin clone except for the tweak to allow it to be backed. Automatically undoing that tweak in an emergency situation of losing its backing could make it just like Bitcoin.
member
Activity: 87
Merit: 10
I had a similar thought after reading this story today: http://www.rgbdaily.com/story/25-reasons-to-buy-gold-and-dump-dollars

Here's the thing though, as a community we have to invest our energy into Bitcoin for better or worst.  Think of Bitcoin as HTML.  It was horrible when it first came out, remember the blink tag?  Bitcoin gets better with every release of the core client/protocol.  The ecosystem is also getting better.  We have to protect our investment or something proprietary will try to shut us down when we are weak (Facebook credits).  

In your mind you have to convince yourself that you are at the beginning of something that will be lasting.  That will make your time with Bitcoin a lot more profitable.  If you are just along for the ride you might mine, hell you might buy a bunch of machines.  However the real opportunity is with real services.  Accept Bitcoin for payment.  Go through the processing headaches and just charge a markup.  Make Bitcoin real.

Ultimately backing bitcoin with gold is a feature for when the lights go out.  Being able to sync the block chain in a disconnect manner is the alternative.  As another poster mentioned, they have to be accepted, not backed.  Bitcoins are a store of value and be exchanged for tangible goods/services in a virtuous loop.  For example in a world where Bitcoin is no longer valued in USD we would see relative prices.  You can buy a pencil for $0.10 and a cheap car is 100,000 times more valuable.  Priced in Bitcoin the ratio would be maintained, but we really don't know what the Bitcoin dime looks like because the currency is not easily exchanged for goods. We can experiment though by injecting Bitcoin into closed communities.  For example Bitcoin is an excellent way to compensate knowledge workers.  Where the raw materials you are expending are skill and time.  In that way the work/electricity/time a machine miner consumes can be translated to the coin and exchanged for the bioelectric energy/time of the knowledge worker.
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