OK so did you read the OP? And why are you quoting that guy, there is no such thing as "selling coins to gox".
Mtgox holds customer accounts like a bank, where you can deposit your bitcoins or your central bank-issued currency. It also operates an order brokering service. It will be complying in the near future with MST/MSB laws through partnership with CoinLab in the U.S.
Therefore, in theory there is no reason for FinCEN to demand you, the miner, to be separately registered. Because you are not selling your coins for central bank currency.
MtGox/CoinLab is selling your coins for you, after verifying your identity, to someone who has also been verified by them, for funds that Gox/Coinlab is holding for them. And they are supposed to be reporting the suspicious activities and currency transactions. So that is what OP is talking about with his phone call.
Topic: I just got off the phone with FinCEN - page 2. (Read 5382 times)
What if you are selling the coins you mined to MTGox, who is a licensed money transmitter? (In this case i'm assuming a that you are NOT a money transmitter)
Mt. Gox is not today a licensed money transmitter in the U.S.
But even if they were, do you as a miner have an agreement where you are an agent of theirs? If not then it wouldn't matter where you sell your mined coins.
FinCEN's guidance is pretty clear. If you convert your mined coins to currency (or value that substitutes as currency) then you are a money transmitter. It is baffling, but yes -- that very restrictive definition is how they chose to interpret legislation regarding the transmission of money.
I did not ask about mining, but I would think that you would be considered a transmitter. I think personally that it's dumb, especially because how can you have an AML program when you are the person initiating the trades? It's not like you set up a site where people come to you.
The person I spoke with had this to say:
There are no limits which exclude you from registering when dealing with virtual currency. However:
If you are buying/selling from a site such as mtgox.com, who (currently or soon?) will have coinlab which is registered with FinCen, IF you are limited to buying/Selling for speculative purposes (buying, and selling later for gain), AND as a user (trading for goods):
Then you would have the position of a speculator and would not need to register with FinCEN. MtGox/coinlab would have the responsibility in this case to report transactions to FinCEN, since they are registered.
It is only if you decide to branch out and buy/sell directly from other people that you would need to register, as well as be in compliance with their regulations.
Just a summary of what I was told by FinCEN, I can't be responsible for you following this info but seems to be accurate based on what I was told.
There are no limits which exclude you from registering when dealing with virtual currency. However:
If you are buying/selling from a site such as mtgox.com, who (currently or soon?) will have coinlab which is registered with FinCen, IF you are limited to buying/Selling for speculative purposes (buying, and selling later for gain), AND as a user (trading for goods):
Then you would have the position of a speculator and would not need to register with FinCEN. MtGox/coinlab would have the responsibility in this case to report transactions to FinCEN, since they are registered.
It is only if you decide to branch out and buy/sell directly from other people that you would need to register, as well as be in compliance with their regulations.
Just a summary of what I was told by FinCEN, I can't be responsible for you following this info but seems to be accurate based on what I was told.
this is awesome; exactly what i had read into while deep review of the latest fincen regs, etc... thank you for calling them and displacing the details here.
Can anyone clarify this one 
What if you are selling the coins you mined to MTGox, who is a licensed money transmitter? (In this case i'm assuming a that you are NOT a money transmitter)
What if the you are selling your coins to someone outside the USA, or a organization and not registered with the USA, even for non USD? (I'm assuming in this case that you ARE a money transmitter)
Quote
A person that creates units of this convertible virtual currency and uses it to purchase real or virtual goods and services is a user of the convertible virtual currency and not subject to regulation as a money transmitter. By contrast, a person that creates units of convertible virtual currency and sells those units to another person for real currency or its equivalent is engaged in transmission to another location and is a money transmitter.
What if you are selling the coins you mined to MTGox, who is a licensed money transmitter? (In this case i'm assuming a that you are NOT a money transmitter)
What if the you are selling your coins to someone outside the USA, or a organization and not registered with the USA, even for non USD? (I'm assuming in this case that you ARE a money transmitter)
Did you ask about selling cash in the mail for bitcoins through SR? I want to make sure I'm on the up and up.
Edit: does anyone know if SR has already registered, and if so, does that mean I'm covered? Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!
Edit: does anyone know if SR has already registered, and if so, does that mean I'm covered? Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!
Hahahahaha
Did you ask about selling cash in the mail for bitcoins through SR? I want to make sure I'm on the up and up.
Edit: does anyone know if SR has already registered, and if so, does that mean I'm covered? Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!
Edit: does anyone know if SR has already registered, and if so, does that mean I'm covered? Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!
Does anyone even know if registering with fincen is even that much of a hassle? There are no fees or anything. Do you even need to collect info for smaller transactions?
There are no fees at the federal level, but you must have a "compliance officer" (who is not you) and many other rules that, if skipped, can land you in jail.
I see. Well, I suppose unless it makes sense for me to deal with the mess, buying/selling on mtgox will be enough for me. I try asking for what is required, and they only link me to their website.
Does anyone even know if registering with fincen is even that much of a hassle? There are no fees or anything. Do you even need to collect info for smaller transactions?
There are no fees at the federal level, but you must have a "compliance officer" (who is not you) and many other rules that, if skipped, can land you in jail.
Does anyone even know if registering with fincen is even that much of a hassle? There are no fees or anything. Do you even need to collect info for smaller transactions?
That is a great question. Also, as was mentioned, perhaps it is time to warn the peeps on the sites advertising exchange. Great point!
Does anyone even know if registering with fincen is even that much of a hassle? There are no fees or anything. Do you even need to collect info for smaller transactions?
So, would this be the demise of sites like localbitcoins.com?
Technically, yes. Realistically, no. The government isn't going to be able to regulate cash exchanges for BTC, and they'll be aiming to go after the big fish (unregulated exchanges) anyway.Source: The AMALC dude said it, so it must be true.
Either way, now would be a good time get in contact with other traders who currently list themselves on LocalBitoins. There may come a time where traders don't advertise but remain active at trading.
So, would this be the demise of sites like localbitcoins.com?
Technically, yes. Realistically, no. The government isn't going to be able to regulate cash exchanges for BTC, and they'll be aiming to go after the big fish (unregulated exchanges) anyway.Source: The AMALC dude said it, so it must be true.
So, would this be the demise of sites like localbitcoins.com?
Yes, if you are buying or selling from person to person or setting up a service where people can buy or sell from you, then you need to be registered. They actually did tell me this, it doesn't matter if the other person is FinCEN registered or not.
However, if you're buying/selling for speculative purposes as though it were a stock, from a site like mtgox who is FinCEN registered and you're not setting up a service where people are directly buying/selling from you, then you are just a speculator. If you were to buy/sell directly with another person then you would need to register (even if just in small amounts).
However, if you're buying/selling for speculative purposes as though it were a stock, from a site like mtgox who is FinCEN registered and you're not setting up a service where people are directly buying/selling from you, then you are just a speculator. If you were to buy/sell directly with another person then you would need to register (even if just in small amounts).
as long as at least one of the parties involved in a currency exchange is licensed, then it is all good by FinCEN.
That's not their position at all. It depends on the transaction.
as long as at least one of the parties involved in a currency exchange is licensed, then it is all good by FinCEN.
That's not their position at all. It depends on the transaction.
I assume for those you'd need to be FinCEN registered.
What about local trades? face to face trades? localbitcoins? I'm not in the US, but I'm still curious.
Wish you would of recorded it, great info though!!
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