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Topic: I made this video on the ostracism happening against Bitcoin libertarians - page 2. (Read 3565 times)

donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
common production just makes sense. why work for anyone else but yourself. it's the only sustainable economic model and bitcoin empowers it. esp with multisig and other tools. i see many possibilities for using markets in this way.
more than anything we can invest in technology and better industrial tools rather than buying tvs or other good given to us- long term we all end up better together.

http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Practical_Post-Scarcity_Video

instead of small toys (porsche, luxury apartment .etc), have the best and biggest toys (industry, farms, techno infrastructure, production, large scale construction). it's my aim Smiley
https://wiki.unsystem.net/index.php/UnSYSTEM/OpenSource_city

That's something I hope to bring to the Philippines someday.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1076
common production just makes sense. why work for anyone else but yourself. it's the only sustainable economic model and bitcoin empowers it. esp with multisig and other tools. i see many possibilities for using markets in this way.
more than anything we can invest in technology and better industrial tools rather than buying tvs or other good given to us- long term we all end up better together.

http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Practical_Post-Scarcity_Video

instead of small toys (porsche, luxury apartment .etc), have the best and biggest toys (industry, farms, techno infrastructure, production, large scale construction). it's my aim Smiley
https://wiki.unsystem.net/index.php/UnSYSTEM/OpenSource_city

Mi staras kun vi, amiko!

En pli ol unu maniero ni estas samideanoj.



Dankon kaj mi kun vi, unu al la alia.

Malfelicxe la plej bonaj ideoj ne cxiam sukcesas. Sed Bitmono estas bonega ideo kiu sukcesos.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
Syndicalism tends towards fascism, not freedom. 1930's Italy, German and the U.S. were all broadly syndicalist. Two of them ended up with fascist dictatorships and the third came close (see John T Flynn "As We Go Marching" for a detailed account).  

Yours is a gross oversimplification at best. You are ignoring, among other things, that in the 1930s the biggest and more relevant trade-union in Europe was the Confederacion General del Trabajo (CNT), with more than 1.000.000 affiliates in the mid-1930s, and together with the FAI it was precisely the forefront against the fascist counter-revolution. The CNT-FAI was able to control a territory (Aragón and part of Catalonia) for 8 years and installed an anarchist society which did not tend toward fascism at all, until it was crushed precisely by the army of Francisco Franco together with the help of the Russian KPSS.

Furthermore, Italy was not "broadly syndicalist" and thus "it tended to fascism". Trade-unions had a minor relevance in Italy in the first 20 years of the Century, and when fascism raised strongly as an opposition to the Russian revolution of 1917 its first actions consisted in beating up precisely trade-unions members. Trade-unions gradually lost any relevance until 1923, when Mussolini established a single, vertical trade-union that made "unnecessary" those founded by the workers themselves. The fascist trade-union in Italy was a joke as it didn't represent the workers but the fascist party itself, and it was a totally vertical organization, which as you might understand is completely opposed to the anarchists organizations which are always horizontal.

Finally, it should be added the huge impact that trade-unionism had in UK, Scandinavia or Australia (just to name a few territories), which never gravitaded towards fascism.


As for the impossibility of a modern technological society without markets, prices  and private property, see Mises on the Economic Calculation Argument (never refuted).  

While all anarchists are against private property, not all of them are against markets and prices: Proudhon's idea of a working economy in an anarchist society was mutualism, in which free market is a fundamental piece. In any case and besides Mises theories, the hard cold fact is that anarchism was tested empyrically only once (Aragón 1930-1938), and it was a successful experience. It should be noted nevertheless that the duration of such community was short lived (only 8 years) and its size was relatively small (less than 100k individuals living in it).

On the contrary, I'd say that the type of society the "an-caps" are looking for has been thoroughly tested in the past: the middle ages, with their lack of states or nations but the presence of private property (established by force, as usual), seems a good test-case for the "anarcho-capitalist" society. In fact, Rothbardian's like to point out how prosperous Medieval Iceland was, and they consider it as an example of the ideal society. I would add that while Medieval Iceland was quite peaceful for middle ages standards, it remains the fact that it was a hugely unbalanced society were the majority of poor had to work for the minority of rich, and where justice or safety was available only to those able to pay for it (a minority).
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
This forum used to be much more "libertarian", but then the masses arrived.  Tongue

So basically, Bitcoin was really awesome until people started actually using it.

You sound like the kind of hipster who loved fixed gear bicycles and Pabst Blue Ribbon before it was cool.

I said "this forum", not Bitcoin.
People who were here before June 2011 are better able to understand what happened to this place.
Sorry you missed out...

I know what you mean.

The libertarian streak in this forum is still pretty strong though, although it has changed, and been dulled somewhat by the influx of people who have not put much thought into political matters and things pertaining to rights and Liberty and little ole things like that.

Agreed:
This is still one of the best places on the Internet (on a good day)
You have to dig more to find "the good parts" / Too much static and the signal is weaker.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
This forum used to be much more "libertarian", but then the masses arrived.  Tongue

So basically, Bitcoin was really awesome until people started actually using it.

You sound like the kind of hipster who loved fixed gear bicycles and Pabst Blue Ribbon before it was cool.

I said "this forum", not Bitcoin.
People who were here before June 2011 are better able to understand what happened to this place.
Sorry you missed out...

I know what you mean.

The libertarian streak in this forum is still pretty strong though, although it has changed, and been dulled somewhat by the influx of people who have not put much thought into political matters and things pertaining to rights and Liberty and little ole things like that.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
This forum used to be much more "libertarian", but then the masses arrived.  Tongue

So basically, Bitcoin was really awesome until people started actually using it.

You sound like the kind of hipster who loved fixed gear bicycles and Pabst Blue Ribbon before it was cool.

I said "this forum", not Bitcoin.
People who were here before June 2011 are better able to understand what happened to this place.
Sorry you missed out...
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1005
This forum used to be much more "libertarian", but then the masses arrived.  Tongue

So basically, Bitcoin was really awesome until people started actually using it.

You sound like the kind of hipster who loved fixed gear bicycles and Pabst Blue Ribbon before it was cool.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!

Seriously?

Quit your bitching.  Libertarianism is easily the predominant thread among Bitcoiners.  You sound like some whiny-ass Christian claiming you're being persecuted for your religion in a 90%+ Christian country.  Get over yourself.

It isn't quite that simple.

Bitcoiners might be predominantly libertarian, but not all bitcoiners are developers.

There need to be certain developers with a libertarian slant to offset the statist tendencies of some other developers. As Bitcoin becomes less "fringe", more developers will come on board who may or may not have Bitcoin's original intention in mind. There must be a constant supply and availability of liberty-loving developers to prevent Bitcoin from being co-opted by unsavory groups.

This isn't about political opinions of people who use Bitcoin; this is about the protection of the core of Bitcoin as a protocol.

Also a typical Open Source project can be forked, but with BTC it's not that simple.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500

Seriously?

Quit your bitching.  Libertarianism is easily the predominant thread among Bitcoiners.  You sound like some whiny-ass Christian claiming you're being persecuted for your religion in a 90%+ Christian country.  Get over yourself.

It isn't quite that simple.

Bitcoiners might be predominantly libertarian, but not all bitcoiners are developers.

There need to be certain developers with a libertarian slant to offset the statist tendencies of some other developers. As Bitcoin becomes less "fringe", more developers will come on board who may or may not have Bitcoin's original intention in mind. There must be a constant supply and availability of liberty-loving developers to prevent Bitcoin from being co-opted by unsavory groups.

This isn't about political opinions of people who use Bitcoin; this is about the protection of the core of Bitcoin as a protocol.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
This forum used to be much more "libertarian", but then the masses arrived.  Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
I don't think arguing about anarchism is productive until the theory can be applied; what matters is that people understand ethics and reason before we get to the point where it must be applied, then we can observe what a virtuous society does in the absence of central government.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1005

Seriously?

Quit your bitching.  Libertarianism is easily the predominant thread among Bitcoiners.  You sound like some whiny-ass Christian claiming you're being persecuted for your religion in a 90%+ Christian country.  Get over yourself.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
Rampion, can you take a minute and tell us who, exactly, it is that creates "individuals who do not own any means of production"?

What ? Who creates those who have nothing ? Those who have it all of course  Roll Eyes

The UK government just had an IPO of Royal Mail - and so sold to the "public" what they in any case already owned - and whats more, in practice, they effectively gave it away to the City at a 50% discount to its market value.

Who "created" that Huh ?  Get real FFS
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
Rampion, can you take a minute and tell us who, exactly, it is that creates "individuals who do not own any means of production"?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500
The technology is value free - if it wasn't it wouldn't stand a chance.

A by-product of this may be that the ruling elite no longer are able to control the monetary and financial side of the means of production. This may have beneficial effects - it  may help merely to chrystallise the question. Either way, it will engender a huge shift away from a position whereby the monetary system is at the beck and call of capitalism, in its service and essentially not value free.

It maybe that BTC was developed with this in mind - it may not. But the BTC protocol itself is value free - and thats as it should be. That is its strength.
hero member
Activity: 552
Merit: 501
I really need to read up on Eric Raymond - I nearly dismissed him out of hand on account of the forum troll (whose name I won't mention) singing his praises - guilt by association etc.

I'd forgotten that it was Proudhon who said "all property is theft" - where do the US libertarians stand on that point I wonder ?

Cool music BTW.

but there is a difference between "private" and "personal" property: anarchists totally respect "personal property" (your clothes, your house, etc.), what they do not respect is "private property" which basically means "the private ownership of the means of production" (companies, manufacturing plants, farmland, etc.).

An incoherent distinction, which is why anarcho-syndicalism inevitably leads to statism and dictatorship no less than does socialism.

There are strong economic arguments against your statement. The distinction about personal and private property is clear: the former is non-productive, the latter is productive property.

Furthermore, anarcho-syndicalism has been empyrically tested just once: in Aragón, Spain, from 1930 to 1938. It was a peaceful, self-managed, classless and cashless, stateless society that succeeded until the spanish fascists and the russian communists joined forces to crush it, as a successful anarchist society was a huge threat to their own interests in Europe (anarchists were obviously strongly opposed to communism and its hierarchical structures). Finally, anarcho-syndicalism "inevitably leading to statism and dictatorship" is complete nonsense, being its core principles "no state, no God, no ruler". How feasible would be such anarchist society is yet to be seen, but as stated earlier the *only* empyrical experience in that sense (Israel Kibbutz's are too small to serve as an example) indicates that it could work quite well.

Syndicalism tends towards fascism, not freedom. 1930's Italy, German and the U.S. were all broadly syndicalist. Two of them ended up with fascist dictatorships and the third came close (see John T Flynn "As We Go Marching" for a detailed account). 

As for the impossibility of a modern technological society without markets, prices  and private property, see Mises on the Economic Calculation Argument (never refuted). 


legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
I really need to read up on Eric Raymond - I nearly dismissed him out of hand on account of the forum troll (whose name I won't mention) singing his praises - guilt by association etc.

I'd forgotten that it was Proudhon who said "all property is theft" - where do the US libertarians stand on that point I wonder ?

Cool music BTW.

but there is a difference between "private" and "personal" property: anarchists totally respect "personal property" (your clothes, your house, etc.), what they do not respect is "private property" which basically means "the private ownership of the means of production" (companies, manufacturing plants, farmland, etc.).

An incoherent distinction, which is why anarcho-syndicalism inevitably leads to statism and dictatorship no less than does socialism.

There are strong economic arguments against your statement. The distinction about personal and private property is clear: the former is non-productive, the latter is productive property.

Furthermore, anarcho-syndicalism has been empyrically tested just once: in Aragón, Spain, from 1930 to 1938. It was a peaceful, self-managed, classless and cashless, stateless society that succeeded until the spanish fascists and the russian communists joined forces to crush it, as a successful anarchist society was a huge threat to their own interests in Europe (anarchists were obviously strongly opposed to communism and its hierarchical structures). Finally, anarcho-syndicalism "inevitably leading to statism and dictatorship" is complete nonsense, being its core principles "no state, no God, no ruler". How feasible would be such anarchist society is yet to be seen, but as stated earlier the *only* empyrical experience in that sense (Israel Kibbutz's are too small to serve as an example) indicates that it could work quite well.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 500

To make a long story short, anarchist thinkers share Marx's view on capitalism, and about this specific (coercion) point:

Quote
In pre-capitalist economies, exploitation of the worker was achieved via physical coercion. In the capitalist mode of production, that result is more subtly achieved; because the worker does not own the means of production, he or she must voluntarily enter into an exploitive work relationship with a capitalist in order to earn the necessities of life. The worker's entry into such employment is voluntary in that he or she chooses which capitalist to work for. However, the worker must work or starve. Thus, exploitation is inevitable, and the "voluntary" nature of a worker participating in a capitalist society is illusory.

Alienation is the estrangement of people from their humanity, which is a systematic result of capitalism. Under capitalism, the fruits of production belong to the employers, who expropriate the surplus created by others and control what they do during their worktime, and so generate alienated labourers. In Marx's view, alienation is an objective characterization of the worker's situation in capitalism – his or her self-awareness of this condition is not prerequisite.

Yes - and its precisely for this reason that I personally would prefer to view BTC's ideological roots as being more in line with traditional European anarchism than of modern day US libertarianism. I like to think that widespread adoption of BTC would undermine the grip that a ruling elite would have over the ownership of the means of production - obviously with particular reference to finance capital.

   The US libertarians on this forum seem more interested in BTC's function in eroding the role of the state in the life of the individual - they don't seem to agree with Proudhon, for example, that "property is theft" - and have no views on the ownership of the means of production other than state ownership is bad.

Without taking ownership into account "liberty", I feel, may prove illusive.

but there is a difference between "private" and "personal" property: anarchists totally respect "personal property" (your clothes, your house, etc.), what they do not respect is "private property" which basically means "the private ownership of the means of production" (companies, manufacturing plants, farmland, etc.).

An incoherent distinction, which is why anarcho-syndicalism inevitably leads to statism and dictatorship no less than does socialism.

The distinction makes perfect sense to me TBH
    
hero member
Activity: 552
Merit: 501

Nice video, though I'm not quite sure about the opening definition of libertarianism. Surely a libertarian is simply somebody who believes that the best society is one in which liberty is maximised?
hero member
Activity: 552
Merit: 501
I really need to read up on Eric Raymond - I nearly dismissed him out of hand on account of the forum troll (whose name I won't mention) singing his praises - guilt by association etc.

I'd forgotten that it was Proudhon who said "all property is theft" - where do the US libertarians stand on that point I wonder ?

Cool music BTW.

but there is a difference between "private" and "personal" property: anarchists totally respect "personal property" (your clothes, your house, etc.), what they do not respect is "private property" which basically means "the private ownership of the means of production" (companies, manufacturing plants, farmland, etc.).

An incoherent distinction, which is why anarcho-syndicalism inevitably leads to statism and dictatorship no less than does socialism.
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